Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 71
Like Tree24Likes

Thread: Is a Resin Filter Good Enough to Prevent Scale?

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Berwick Vic.
    Posts
    30

    Is a Resin Filter Good Enough to Prevent Scale?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi,

    I got onto the end of a recent post about descaling a dual boiler Expobar machine, but didn't get any reply to the following:

    It seems that the preferred filtered/descaled water supply is the Brita C150 system, but this costs about $400 + plumbing if you are not a good diy person.

    I note that the resin filters supplied with the Expobar can be bought for $9.00 each and will last 3 months.

    If the resin filters are effective one could buy 10 years supply of resin filters for the cost of the C 150.

    So: Do the resin filters descale the water supply adequately?

  2. #2
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Hervey Bay, QLD
    Posts
    930
    You can get an Everpure system that filters, softens and improves taste for about $100

    Add $20.00 for 1/2" braided hose from Bunnings and one 3/8" to 1/2" BSB male fittings; one 3/8" to 3/8" male fitting. Might need a 3.5bar pressure reducer - $35.00 - $65.00 and a T if you use cold water mains supplied to your sink faucet/mixer.

    So - $200.00 maybe?

    Any resin system will increase the longevity of your machine. I just refurbished a MegaCrem Compact and scale had completely plugged the hot water tap at the boiler fitting (low on the end of the boiler).

    Whatever system you use change often and do a water hardness test if possible before so you have an idea how aggressively you need to combat mineral precipitation.

    Cheers!

  3. #3
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Hervey Bay, QLD
    Posts
    930
    Addendum: if you aren't using mains supply and have an Office or Leva/Minore then yes - the office resin filters work great. Use filtered water (particulate filter in a jug like a Brita).
    DaveD likes this.

  4. #4
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665
    A Brita C150 and bayonet is nothing like $400. It's more like $200.

    Add a PLV/isolation valves/ceramic tap to any filter system and the price will increase. Apples with apples guys

  5. #5
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by rmchenry View Post
    Hi,.....I note that the (mini) resin filters can be bought for $9.00 each and will last 3 months.

    ....... Do the resin filters descale the water supply adequately?
    Beware .......this is a Yes, and No scenario.....

    Yes, Minni Resin filters DO soften water adequately IF THEY ARE TREATED / RECHARGED ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION.

    However most people dont (TREAT / RECHARGE ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION).

    From memory, a miniature resin water softener/filter is good for about 30 litres, after which its capacity to soften the water passing through has been spent. From that point on, until the softener is *recharged* or *depurated*, it can nolonger soften water (because its capacity to do is already saturated), however it will continue to filter particles.

    You then "recharge"' or "depurate" the softener and WHALLA...its good for another "30 litres" of water softening.

    You could get pickie and mention that the "rated" capacity to soften (30 litres) actually depends on the hardness factor of the water in any particuler location and you would be correct, but you have to pick an arbitrary figure to start from, and 30 litres is for crappy hard Italian water so should be perfectly good for *most* areas on good potable tap water in Oz....

    Note, the life expectancy of the softener between recharges is not time depndent (eg not "3 months")...it is volume dependent on the amount of water you are putting through it eg 30 litres....so the time taken between recharges is different for each individual and how much they use their machine.

    As an example, in my own use at home, I measured that on average I put about 30 litres through my BFC Splendor machine in about 3 weeks. This is a far cry from *3 months*, and the mini resin softener/filter supplied with the machine should be recharged (or replaced) every 3 weeks to keep it operating / softening the water as it should.

    The scenario is not that the mini resin filters cant do a good job because they can....it's that most average joes never recharge/depurate them and probably never took notice of it in the instructions in the first place.

    For the sake of picking a convenient arbitrary interval, lets say these things should be recharged or replaced monthly. People that cant be bothered, should look for another way of providing appropriately conditioned water to their machine or suffer the consequences of scale build up over time.

    Further:
    there will be any number of permutations and combinations in between, but if you can buy a mini resin filter for $9.00 (bargain basement price) as a walk in client that is one thing, but if you buy one each month and have it delivered by express post, that will add about another $10.00, so that makes the actual cost of replacement $19.00 per month (theoretically), if you cant be bothered doing a recharge. That means the cost of properly conditioning your coffee machine water is about $230.00 annually if doing it that way. A far cry from budgeting for a *9.00 filter every 3 months*.

    It doesnt matter which way you do it, as long as you do...

    Hope that helps.

    Note: the larger the resin filter, the longer it will last between recharges but the theory is exactly the same in terms of the resin eventually becoming saturated and needing to be recharged.
    Last edited by TOK; 3rd November 2014 at 08:52 AM. Reason: make betterer
    sprezzatura likes this.

  6. #6
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Hervey Bay, QLD
    Posts
    930
    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    Beware .......this is a Yes, and No scenario.....

    Yes, Minni Resin filters DO soften water adequately IF THEY ARE TREATED / RECHARGED ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION.

    However most people dont (TREAT / RECHARGE ACCORDING TO THE MANUFACTURER SPECIFICATION).

    From memory, a miniature resin water softener/filter is good for about 30 litres, after which its capacity to soften the water passing through has been spent. From that point on, until the softener is *recharged* or *depurated*, it can nolonger soften water (because its capacity to do is already saturated), however it will continue to filter particles.

    You then "recharge"' or "depurate" the softener and WHALLA...its good for another "30 litres" of water softening.

    You could get pickie and mention that the "rated" capacity to soften (30 litres) actually depends on the hardness factor of the water in any particuler location and you would be correct, but you have to pick an arbitrary figure to start from, and 30 litres is for crappy hard Italian water so should be perfectly good for *most* areas on good potable tap water in Oz....

    Note, the life expectancy of the softener between recharges is not time depndent (eg not "3 months")...it is volume dependent on the amount of water you are putting through it eg 30 litres....so the time taken between recharges is different for each individual and how much they use their machine.

    As an example, in my own use at home, I measured that on average I put about 30 litres through my BFC Splendor machine in about 3 weeks. This is a far cry from *3 months*, and the mini resin softener/filter supplied with the machine should be recharged (or replaced) every 3 weeks to keep it operating / softening the water as it should.

    The scenario is not that the mini resin filters cant do a good job because they can....it's that most average joes never recharge/depurate them and probably never took notice of it in the instructions in the first place.

    For the sake of picking a convenient arbitrary interval, lets say these things should be recharged or replaced monthly. People that cant be bothered, should look for another way of providing appropriately conditioned water to their machine or suffer the consequences of scale build up over time.

    Further:
    there will be any number of permutations and combinations in between, but if you can buy a mini resin filter for $9.00 (bargain basement price) as a walk in client that is one thing, but if you buy one each month and have it delivered by express post, that will add about another $10.00, so that makes the actual cost of replacement $19.00 per month (theoretically), if you cant be bothered doing a recharge. That means the cost of properly conditioning your coffee machine water is about $230.00 annually if doing it that way. A far cry from budgeting for a *9.00 filter every 3 months*.

    It doesnt matter which way you do it, as long as you do...

    Hope that helps.

    Note: the larger the resin filter, the longer it will last between recharges but the theory is exactly the same in terms of the resin eventually becoming saturated and needing to be recharged.
    Good and salient point WRT volume as opposed to time!

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Berwick Vic.
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    A Brita C150 and bayonet is nothing like $400. It's more like $200.

    Add a PLV/isolation valves/ceramic tap to any filter system and the price will increase. Apples with apples guys
    $399 here: C150 Coffee Machine Water Filter Kit - Brita :: COFFEE & ICE FILTERS :: WATER...

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    116
    Quote Originally Posted by rmchenry View Post
    Hi,
    It seems that the preferred filtered/descaled water supply is the Brita C150 system
    Perhaps by those who sell it?

    As for the expobar unit you mentioned, if you can buy them at that price it may be worth trying one to see how well and for how long it works, but you'll need hardness test kit(s) if you want to measure results. Much will depend on your source water quality.

    If I'm looking at the right expobar cartridge you mentioned, it seems that it can be recharged? (i.e periodic addition of salt) so if it performs ok, then why would you bother with a much more expensive solution?

    You didn't mention if you already have filter(s) (i.e particulate, carbon, etc) supplying water for your machine? If so and if you only need some softening, then try the in-tank expobar. If you also need filtration, then I recommend looking for generic filter housings that accept standard 10 inch filter cartridges. You can buy these, and the replacement cartridges from just about any big hardware store, or water filter supplier. I try to avoid proprietary and/or patented products that lock you in to having to buy unique (and often more expensive) spares, particularly if there is no difference in performance.

    For some useful information on water softening and quality, refer to;
    http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Q...ater%20FAQ.pdf

    Cheers

  9. #9
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665
    But correctly compared with this one C150 Kit upgrade kit for 1/4" hose - BRITA :: COFFEE & ICE FILTERS :: WATER...

    Once again, apples with apples

    Quote Originally Posted by Mouldy View Post
    Perhaps by those who sell it?

    As for the expobar unit you mentioned, if you can buy them at that price it may be worth trying one to see how well and for how long it works, but you'll need hardness test kit(s) if you want to measure results. Much will depend on your source water quality.

    If I'm looking at the right expobar cartridge you mentioned, it seems that it can be recharged? (i.e periodic addition of salt) so if it performs ok, then why would you bother with a much more expensive solution?
    We sell it. Why? Because it works.

    We also see machines with inline filters which have regularly been recharged and yet they are significantly scaled.

    I defer to experts in water filtration rather than blindly accepting the opinions of otherwise unqualified people who publish them on the internerd.

  10. #10
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    hahaha....love that one..."internerd" !

    For the rest of it:

    Mouldy: re the mini resin softener / filter. It was all explained in post # 5.

    The reason for going with a "more expensive" solution as per TalkCoffee offering (and also explaining a comment of his re softeners being recharged but machines still showing up with scale) is because they (the mini resin softener/filters) are misunderstood. The salient point is Litres not Time, coupled with "client psychology". I'll bet my last $10.00 that machines presenting with some scale despite the owners saying they have been recharging the softeners, is due to:
    a) owners recharging way past the correct volume spec (according to the incorrect "3 month" advice) and
    b) owners often say stuff that isnt...well.....ummmm.....quite true.....(ie they say they did stuff when in fact....they didnt.....)....

    The most convenient way to do this (and be assured it is being done correctly) is in fact to use a filtration unit of whatever kind, rather than to rely on owners recharging resin softeners....which they will seldom do.

    This is the reason that the supply of (much larger capacity) commercial size resin filters for commercial fitments was DiSCONTINUED years ago...they work, but NO ONE can be relied upon to do the recharging operation. So now we supply commercial size in line scale INHIBITING filters and charge them out to the clients, and put the clients on a rotation to replace at the correct interval, again (rightly) at client expense.

    This topic does not need to be discussed on the basis of *guess work*...it's already been sorted.

    Those that wont recharge a resin softener properly, at the proper intervals, need to buy appropriate scale inhibiting filters that also do particles and odours (so called 3 part filtration"). NOT from hardware stores, but from professionals that specialise in coffee machine applications and can supply the right gear to allow easiest most conveniewnt fitment.

    In the end, it really is all about getting the job done in the easiest and most convenient way possible, and as I tried to show above, something that at first seems t be the "cheapest' option may in fact not be when you weigh up ALL the possilbe scenarios including the probability that something may not get done properly. Also....$9.00 for the mini resin filter....thats bargain basement and you would want to be lucky and buy 20 of them at once....

    Hope that helps

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Berwick Vic.
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    But correctly compared with this one C150 Kit upgrade kit for 1/4" hose - BRITA :: COFFEE & ICE FILTERS :: WATER...

    Once again, apples with apples
    The Expobar is not plumbed in so I need a benchtop version - $400.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,577
    Yeh, I can't say with my hand on my heart that I refresh my inline filter every 30 litres, but would be confident that I do so every 50 litres or so. This is largely because I refresh the boiler regularly (i.e. to warm each cup), so 30 litres doesn't take long to pass through. I have 3 or 4 of the inline filters, so there's always one that has been recharged that is ready to go (I leave the recharged ones within eyesight of the machine to remind me of their presence ). Combining this with filtering all water with a benchtop Brita system (and regular changing of the cartridge) *seems* to have done the job for the last few years (famous last words....I know).
    TOK likes this.

  13. #13
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by rmchenry View Post
    The Expobar is not plumbed in so I need a benchtop version - $400.
    Filtration | Talk Coffee

    Not $400: Aqua Pro benchtop filtration system | Talk Coffee

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    116
    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    We sell it. Why? Because it works
    No doubt it would work, as would a multitude of other systems, but not what the OP was asking. I was simply responding to the question.


    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    Those that wont recharge a resin softener properly, at the proper intervals, need to buy appropriate scale inhibiting filters that also do particles and odours (so called 3 part filtration").
    Are these same people that can't be trusted to replace/recharge their softener suddenly going to become diligent when it comes to replacing their $130 all in one cartridge? (which, like the softeners, is dependant on litres, not time). I think your logic fails here for obvious reasons.

    Some people choose convenience over price/value; which is fine and understandable. However, the OP asked a specific question seeking to understand whether an alternative solution would descale the water adequately. I offered a suggestion to do a trial and measure results by testing. An obvious, and low cost initial step before committing to anything further.
    Last edited by Mouldy; 3rd November 2014 at 08:01 PM.
    cafelazio likes this.

  15. #15
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by Mouldy View Post
    Are these same people that can't be trusted to replace/recharge their softener suddenly going to become diligent when it comes to replacing their $130 all in one cartridge? (which, like the softeners, is dependant on litres, not time). I think your logic fails here for obvious reasons....
    I didnt say one way or another the equipment operators would remember or not to change the filters so I dont believe there has been any failiure in the logic. However the filters last a lot longer than 30 litres and will therefore protect the equipment for longer. Additionally, the resin filter is in the tank out of sight and out of mind, where the on counter filtered water fountain is out in front of everyone. The point is the resin filters, while good if worked properly, last about 5 minutes in the scheme of things....but they do offer low cost initial set up and if the OP already has the expobar, then he also has the resin filter.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Berwick Vic.
    Posts
    30
    Thanks, will look at this.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,073
    Your query gave me a much needed kick up the bum.
    I realised that I had not changed my 'in-line resin filter' in years, and nor had I changed the bigger carbon filter on the tap from which I source my machine water.
    On consulting the machine manual, I see that they suggest removing the in-line filter and soaking it in salty water for a couple of days, but in view of my slackness I decided to just replace it.
    It is good to see that there seems to be a generic filter that fits most machines.

  18. #18
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    2 days......?????

    Half an hour will do it, just make sure the solution is good and salty.

    OR for convenience....if you do it before you go to bed, leave it in the solution overnight and rinse out next morning before making coffee.

    You need to run some water through until the taste of saltiness is gone.

    Older resin filters that have trapped a lot of particles will be well discoloured and should be rinsed thoroughly regardless of the salt recharging issue.

    Replace a resin filter where the beads have gone green.

    Lastly. IT IS IMPERATIVE TO CHECK THE FIBROUS FILTER MEMBRANE at the end of the plastic body. This membrane stops the resin beans escaping into the guts of the machine. If that happens, it will be a machine strip down with no guarantee you get all the beads out, and if one "resurfaces" down the track it can cause a blockage that requires another strip to find it...

    Hope that helps.

  19. #19
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Millthorpe NSW
    Posts
    2,030
    I used to have an exotic cleaning routine for my resin filter involving trying to flush it out under pressure by using the tap after soaking in brine and only managed in covering the kitchen with spray
    But last time, I just pulled the end off, dumped all the resin balls into the cup of salt water, then when they had soaked for a bit, just poured them into a tea strainer and ran the tap across it. Left them to dry for a bit, then they all just rolled back in!

    I was a bit scared to open it originally - though it might have gone off with a bang
    TOK likes this.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    If you're going to rinse them, better to use deionized water

  21. #21
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,577
    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    If you're going to rinse them, better to use deionized water
    Not necessary. I used iodised salt.

  22. #22
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,619
    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    I used to have an exotic cleaning routine for my resin filter involving trying to flush it out under pressure by using the tap after soaking in brine and only managed in covering the kitchen with spray
    If you happen to have an old submersible pond-pump or similar, these are handy for doing this sort of thing, using appropriately sized push-on PVC tubing, etc...

    Used one of these, setup to recirculate scale removing solution through our Bezz's boiler, until the boiler internals were spotless. Works a treat in this scenario...

    Mal.
    DesigningByCoffee likes this.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Central Queensland
    Posts
    1,073
    Just changed the big carbon filter on the water supply to the machine. ($35.)
    The Plumber mate who dropped it in to me (fitted the filter originally) and who runs a 'water-quality' consultancy, did a spot-check on the mains water quality while he was here and said the local water had a 'hardness' of 90ppm which is in the middle of the 'moderately hard' category, a ph of 8 which is somewhat Alkaline (hard).
    The in-line resin filter in my Diadema was very clean and white which perhaps suggests that the mains filter was doing it's job pretty well. Anyhow I'm 600 klms from the nearest Espresso machine service agent so I need to be sure i'm doing all I can to avoid scale build-up.

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Not necessary. I used iodised salt.
    You use a salt solution to rinse off a salt solution?

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    My limited experience chatting with 'professionals' about the subject (i.e. speaking with filter retailers at a home building convention and reading the information on various retailers websites) suggested their understanding of ion exchange / reverse osmosis was pretty limited. Presumably sufficient to supply an adequate system, but they were certaily not subject matter experts.

    I came across some interesting, general information regarding ion exchange resins here, for anyone who is interested https://www.gewater.com/kcpguest/sal...h/TP1050EN.pdf
    Last edited by MrJack; 5th November 2014 at 01:17 AM.

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Toowoomba, QLD
    Posts
    133
    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    You use a salt solution to rinse off a salt solution?
    Pretty sure I heard "Jingle Bells" at #21. Anyone else?

  27. #27
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,577
    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    You use a salt solution to rinse off a salt solution?
    Pulling your leg mate. It was a (poor) play on 'ionized' / 'iodised'.

  28. #28
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    If you're going to rinse them, better to use deionized water
    I believe you have stumbled upon another "Yes and No" scenario in practical terms.

    A certain small proportion of the "rated" capacity of the softener (in this case "30 litres"), will be used up by flushing (using the regular water supply) to remove the salty character imparted by the recharging process. So a "30 litre" capacity may become say....29 litres, or whatever. My understanding is that unless the volume of water used for flushing the obvious saltines away is significant in comparison to the rated capacity of the softener, then it shouldnt present any worry.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Pulling your leg mate. It was a (poor) play on 'ionized' / 'iodised'.
    I did wonder

  30. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    I believe you have stumbled upon another "Yes and No" scenario in practical terms.

    A certain small proportion of the "rated" capacity of the softener (in this case "30 litres"), will be used up by flushing (using the regular water supply) to remove the salty character imparted by the recharging process. So a "30 litre" capacity may become say....29 litres, or whatever. My understanding is that unless the volume of water used for flushing the obvious saltines away is significant in comparison to the rated capacity of the softener, then it shouldnt present any worry.
    I like overkill

  31. #31
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    13
    I actually wished for water that has 0.0% minerals...

    That way... there will be no need to descale ever.....

  32. #32
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,377
    Quote Originally Posted by JavaBeanery View Post
    I actually wished for water that has 0.0% minerals...

    That way... there will be no need to descale ever.....
    Have a read of any of the many threads on here that discuss the use of Reverse Osmosis (RO), i.e. pure/0.0% minerals, water. In a word it's not what you want to use. From flat tasting expresso's to outright destroying your machine there are many reasons why completely pure water is not what you want to use.


    Java "Pure what?!" phile
    Dimal and Vinitasse like this.
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  33. #33
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    13
    Thanks,

    Never really took much interest in "water sciences"

    Because im a fan of the KISS rule..

    Keep it simple stupid...

    Thanks for the early warning...

    I'm gonna steer clear of RO...

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    181
    Yeah why people would use RO is beyond me - it doesn't taste good, wouldn't provide a proper extraction of flavours, wastes energy, and apparently slowly corrodes steel. Calcium and magnesium are the only culprits in scale formation.
    Vinitasse likes this.

  35. #35
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    13
    I'm lucky i never used RO before... just some bottled water that tastes fine... it didnt really scale up that much.... maybe its because of my usage levels... who knows... im happy with the bottled stuff for now....

    GrahamK likes this.

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993
    Please DO NOT give generic advice on water filtration including rubbishing R/O systems. The correct filtration for the given supply is the right answer.

    R/O systems set up properly they can and do give appropriate mineral and ph levels for espresso or brewed coffee and teas (different). They certainly have their place on some poor supplies and you will do far more damage not having one in those cases. The shot below is from a sub 2 year old machine and is boiler water that was incorrectly treated on the way in with minimal treatment. Shot 2 is of the boiler outlet nearly closed over with Calcium solids.

    Melbourne CBD (including Berwick) based supplies however only need some good basic filtration (remove chlorine and similar) and some form of Calcium/mineral reduction cartridge. I would look at alternates before going down the expensive Brita option too.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    119
    As I said in another tread. Your machine cost at least $2600 so cough up the money and protect your machine and your stomach.
    Zee likes this.

  38. #38
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    2,095
    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMonkey View Post
    As I said in another tread. Your machine cost at least $2600 so cough up the money and protect your machine and your stomach.
    Crikey, mate. Be nice. We can all make up our own minds about what we do with our machines and our bodies.

    Maybe ...um..."tread" a bit more lightly?

  39. #39
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth!
    Posts
    15,377
    Quote Originally Posted by beanflying View Post
    Please DO NOT give generic advice on water filtration including rubbishing R/O systems.
    If this is directed at me/my comment please note my response was to JavaBeanery's "I actually wished for water that has 0.0% minerals..." comment advising them to read other threads where RO water was discussed in detail so that they would know why using pure water was not a good idea.

    As generic advice goes I'd say that's pretty spot on so I think I'll stand by it.

    Far from rubbishing RO systems I am a huge proponent of them. All of the drinking and cooking water in my house has been provided by an RO system (With a re-mineralization cartridge, hence it is not pure/0.0% mineral content water.) for over 20 years now and will continue to do so for the rest of my life unless an equally effective but cheaper to run system comes along.


    Java "Water Snob" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  40. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    119

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    We can all make up our own minds about what we do with our machines and our bodies.
    True, True.

    Some answers regarding descaling were a bit heavy. This is just another discussion regarding filtration. If a $11 filter did the trick, why would one spend $400? It's not like we're adding activated almonds and Goji berries to the mix.


    Also, most of us "choose" to drink decent coffee. That's why we're hear as CoffeeSnobs, right? So, choose good filtration. Makes the coffee better and saves on having to spend time cleaning out the gunk. What you do with your body - Chokkidog - is up to you and for discussion on another forum.
    Last edited by BeanMonkey; 14th November 2014 at 07:53 AM.

  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,376
    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMonkey View Post
    If a $11 filter did the trick, why would one spend $400? It's not like we're adding activated almonds and Goji berries to the mix.
    Marketing perhaps?
    The design and operating requirements for an in tank resin bag/filter will be quite different to one in continuous (or semi-continuous) use, in a pressurised system. The economics could well be different accordingly.

  42. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    Marketing perhaps?
    Sceptical. Always good to have an ounce of doubt. However, better filtration can be had, I'm not suggesting paying the $400+. Just more than $11.

    Ie: I started off on the Double Undersink ALDI Water filter, then upgraded the cartridges to Ceramic and B.E.S.T 5 Micron Silver system. Can't link it due to link policies.

  43. #43
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,619
    Have always been grateful for the excellent advice and ongoing support I receive from Bernard of Bombora Coffee & Water Supplies. Bernard is a consummate professional in his chosen field and is why I always recommend that people at least contact Bombora, or one of their agents, if they are unsure just what is the best water filtration for their needs.

    And, this does not necessarily mean the most expensive system on the market either...

    Mal.
    TOK likes this.

  44. #44
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMonkey View Post
    Sceptical. Always good to have an ounce of doubt. However, better filtration can be had, I'm not suggesting paying the $400+. Just more than $11.

    Ie: I started off on the Double Undersink ALDI Water filter, then upgraded the cartridges to Ceramic and B.E.S.T 5 Micron Silver system. Can't link it due to link policies.
    Mine is a twin cartridge system down to a 1 micron silver granulated activated carbon, followed by a UV light.

    That's great for keeping my tummy free of chryptosporidium, giardia, all kinds of viruses, and all sorts of other rubbish that may or may not be in my water tanks, but certainly is on my roof and in my gutters....

    However the UV light warms the water and in summer we fill a water container and put it in the fridge to cool it to an acceptable level (I dont know anyone that likes to drink warm water).

    That said, my system doesnt do anything for scale which is what this is about, but the water (and coffee and tea) sure is good !
    BeanMonkey, Dimal and MrJack like this.

  45. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    119

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    That said, my system doesn't do anything for scale which is what this is about, but the water (and coffee and tea) sure is good !
    Touche!


    __________


    There is still a point for clean water though. No point just having the resin filter and still use unfiltered water.

  46. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993
    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    If this is directed at me/my comment please note my response was to JavaBeanery's "I actually wished for water that has 0.0% minerals..." comment advising them to read other threads where RO water was discussed in detail so that they would know why using pure water was not a good idea. .........

    Java "Water Snob" phile
    Not specifically having a go at anyone but this is where misinformation comes from regarding water and the treatment of it. R/O water is not 0.0% mineral content at all. On this site in the past is has been confused and called demineralised by others which it certainly is not either. It is actually mineral reduced.

    A domestic sized non pumped R/O membrane with some prefiltration will deliver in the order of 15-20PPM TDS when the inlet water is of reasonable quality or when fed on one of our local bore water supplies around 80-90PPM (higher than ideal for espresso). Locally we have no need to remineralise at all for espresso but it can still be a little flat for brewed coffees and teas. The ex medical pumped R/O I have on the same supply can deliver under 20PPM if I set it that way but I don't preferring between 50 and 60PPM for Espresso water.

    Picture below is of your typical domestic R/O system just for others interest being used by the 5 senses crew on a portable setup. This is fairly typical of the gear used in some cafes (oversold in a lot of cases) with the addition of a small remineraliser cartridge being added. On Melbournes water supply as discussed earlier isn't needed. commercial link removed per site posting policy Rubbish since when has a twitter link being commercial??

    General rules of thumb 50PPM for Espresso and 1-200PPM for brewed subject to personal tastes.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by beanflying; 2nd December 2014 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Commercial link(s) removed
    Dimal likes this.

  47. #47
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by burr View Post
    Yeah why people would use RO is beyond me - it doesn't taste good, wouldn't provide a proper extraction of flavours, wastes energy, and apparently slowly corrodes steel. Calcium and magnesium are the only culprits in scale formation.
    I must confess I am contemplating the OCCASIONAL use of RO water for scale buildup prevention. Something to do like once a week: fill the machine's water tank (5 liters, it's a LSM Flexa) with RO water and then just go trough it within a few hours, using the brewing boiler and the steam boiler. Not to actually make espresso or to froth milk, just to take the RO water trough the installation.
    Considering the fact that the RO water is lacking minerals and has a PH on the acid side, I'd say this could work quite well on the long run. And since I bought the machine cheap I'm willing to experiment a bit with my own idea

    Of course, having in house a Ro water installation which delivers 0 TDS is goiing to help with the experiment (I have a saltwater aquarium so I bought it a long time ago).

    Quote Originally Posted by beanflying View Post

    A domestic sized non pumped R/O membrane with some prefiltration will deliver in the order of 15-20PPM TDS when the inlet water is of reasonable quality or when fed on one of our local bore water supplies around 80-90PPM (higher than ideal for espresso).
    I cannot speak about non-pumped, as my RO gizmo has a pressure pump with a working pressure of 80PSI (roughly 5.5 bar), but I can confirm that a domestic sized RO membrane with 3 stage prefiltration and a crappy Chinese pump will constantly achieve 0 TDS.


    Quote Originally Posted by TOK View Post
    there will be any number of permutations and combinations in between, but if you can buy a mini resin filter for $9.00 (bargain basement price) as a walk in client that is one thing, but if you buy one each month and have it delivered by express post, that will add about another $10.00, so that makes the actual cost of replacement $19.00 per month (theoretically), if you cant be bothered doing a recharge. That means the cost of properly conditioning your coffee machine water is about $230.00 annually if doing it that way. A far cry from budgeting for a *9.00 filter every 3 months*.
    Why not buy the resin in bulk (most shops that sell home sized ion-exchange resin devices also sell the resin) and then just refill the cartridge(s) located in the water tank?
    Last edited by AdrianN; 11th December 2014 at 11:25 AM.

  48. #48
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665
    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianN View Post
    Of course, having in house a Ro water installation which delivers 0 TDS is goiing to help with the experiment (I have a saltwater aquarium so I bought it a long time ago).
    I'd suspect you will find that it helps- in a negative way. If you have 0 ppm TDS, the machine is unlikely to be able to sense the presence of water- as it won't conduct a charge. It will cause havoc with autofills and other water sense functions.

  49. #49
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Bucharest
    Posts
    25
    That could happen, I guess. But of course I can add a bit of tap water to it, in order to reach 10 ppm or so. My tap water has a TDS of about 130ppm/liter so adding a liter to 9 liters of 0 TDS Ro water will produce a demineralised water with about 13 ppm/liter. Enough to keep the sensors happy but still very low on TDS so the water can easily dissolve some scale buildup. And with the PH still under 7.


    What do you think about this approach? And of course, instead of purchasing 2 resin filters on a monthly base I can combine tap water with RO water to get about 50ppm TDS and use that in the machine. It shouldn't be too hard to adjust for neutral PH too.

  50. #50
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianN View Post
    ......Why not buy the resin in bulk......and then just refill the cartridge(s) located in the water tank?
    I can sell you several kilos of the stuff if you want....I probably have about 20 kilos of it. So in fact I should be buying new empty cartridges and filling them to sell
    Dimal likes this.



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •