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Thread: Water filter supplier recommendation please!!!

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    Water filter supplier recommendation please!!!

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all

    This is sooooo frustrating. There are hundred of filters out their so I followed CS recommendations and spoke to two filter supplier CS sponsors. The most common one everyone recommends and another one that isn't really pushed on CS as a filter supplier but at least they still sell filters. Both left me very under-whelmed.

    While both were very friendly (full points there), neither were particularly knowledgeable. One could not answer very basic questions about verifying their product claims, eg how much cysts it actually removes and the other could not explain why their filter rated at 38,000L (most are 3,000L) still needs to be changed every 6 months, (like what's the point of buying a 38,000L filter then?). Both wanted me to speak to their product managers because they are only sales reps who don't know any more about the product than what is written on the side of the packet or their website (so much for product training..... grrrrr) . Obviously the product managers were not available.

    Does any one know of a water filter supplier who has sales staff who really knows their products?

    Argh!!!!!!
    ff

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    Oh guess what, I just spoke to another "reputable" supplier. Their sales rep said they couldn't help me because they didn't sell twin cartridges but only singles. Argghhh.



    Edit: They just called me back for the 2nd time. The first time was to tell me their technician confirmed they can't help me. Now they have left a message saying they definitely can help me. I'm going to call them back as I'm now dying to know what they could possibly say. Stay tuned.
    Last edited by MrFreddofrog; 20th October 2015 at 01:30 PM.

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    Hey ff,

    I'm not sure if you have spoken to them, but I thought Bombora Coffee and Water supplies were the goto people for filtration. Check out their website and give them a call if you haven't already.

    Cheers, Dave

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    Thanks Dave, already spoken to them.

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    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Some of the filters that are rated high litres have a by-pass valve. If the by-pass valve doesn't by-pass water its rating dramatically drops (e.g., 36,000 to 9,500)

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    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    I had a water filtration expert tell me he uses 1 micron for cysts. I recommend testing your water (TDS and TH) and then calling WFS in Melbourne if you haven't had any luck with CS sponsors. I have been dealing with them when I have a bad water/expensive machine install. There are plenty of other options out there but the BWT filters and digi-counters are good gear.

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    The problem doesn't stop at retail. Often the sales engineers from the manufacturers don't really understand their products beyond the technical specs.

    What water are you filtering?

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    Yeah, when I asked how one sales rep much cysts it removes they couldn't answer but side stepped to talk about microns. So I asked them to explain their micron rating but they couldn't explain that either. At this point my confidence in the company evaporated and I went elsewhere.

    Mrjack I'm in Perth. I actually think my water is fine but who knows. It just annoys me all these filter companies with exceedingly few exceptions lack knowledgable staff who can substantiate their product claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Yeah, when I asked how one sales rep much cysts it removes they couldn't answer
    The correct answer was to tell you that he started counting but ran out of microscope time...

    Mrjack I'm in Perth. I actually think my water is fine but who knows.
    Yeah- WA is where espresso machines go to die and FWIW, Perth water in most applications means RO.

    Coffee filters and dual filters? They couldn't answer because it's not the way that coffee filters are designed. They're single filters. If you wanted to add a specialist additional filter- go for it, but that may be a job for two different manufacturers/suppliers specialising in different applications.

    Why are they replaced on a time rather than litre basis in most cases? Cut one in half after 12 months of home use or at the end of cafe life which will probably be litres rather than time and you will have your answer.

    Best bet is to have your water tested so you know what you have and then take things from there. Rather than grilling people who need to be generalist on hundreds or thousands of products, you might go to the manufacturer websites and do some research yourself.

    I feel sorry for the salespeople as your account sounds like they have now experienced a full in the glare of the spotlight grilling.

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    To be fair, perhaps its the questions?

    It is not possible to say "how much" cysts it removes, without knowing what is in your water.

    A filter will remove particles down to a certain size (usually measure in microns - i.e. micrometres).

    According to "the internet" cysts can be anywhere from 1 micron to 20 micron. So, a filter which removes 99.9% of particles larger than 5 micron, will pass the smallest cysts. But if your water only has cysts greater than 10 micron, it will remove 99.9% of them.

    That's assuming it has any cysts in it at all...

    If you're seriously worried, reverse osmosis will remove all organic materials.

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    If you're seriously worried, reverse osmosis will remove all organic materials.
    Not necessarily. Not all reverse osmosis systems/membranes are created equal. Membrane pore sizes can vary from 0.1 to 5,000 nm (4◊10−9 to 2◊10−4 in). Many, most per some sources, do not in fact remove all organic materials. It is for this reason that places such as Europe do not allow the use solely of an RO membrane for the production of bottled natural mineral water. In practice, a fraction of living bacteria can and does pass through reverse osmosis membranes through minor imperfections. This is why many reverse osmosis systems include additional water treatment stages that use ultraviolet light or ozone to prevent microbiological contamination.


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    Perhaps I should have said "almost" everything organic.

    Most of the time, additional treatment stages are actually upstream of the RO membrane - to protect it, and prevent scaling and fouling.

    There are various industrial membrane treatment "technologies" (nano, ultra etc.). However, the pores in RO membranes are small enough to reject just about anything (including viruses); significantly smaller than any microbe. Defects and leaks aside (which will affect any system).

    That said, it's true that if pathogen removal is a key design concern, you would usually specify more than one method of treatment.

    P.s. Did you write the Wikipedia page, or just read it?

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    While physical filtration is typically performed upstream of the membrane, anti-microbial treatments such as UV and ozone are more usually located downstream of the membrane.


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    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    I'm using a High-Flow 3M filter. It has a handy pressure gauge built in to the head. Since I have a pressure limiting valve and know what the out flow is when it reads 10 or less psi it's time for a filter change be it 180 days or 90 days and so forth. Turbidity fluctuates and so does TDS and overall hardness in Queensland due to flooding and drought.

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    It was hardly a grilling. I asked (two) very basic questions that a professional sales rep should know. What annoyed me more was the attempt to disguise the lack of knowledge and apathy to find the answers.

    The company I did go with had the same basic level of knowledge but at least he tried to find out. I ended up buying a Doulton Ultracarb filter. Pretty pricey but at least the manufacturer could substantiate their claims, unlike all the others. The Doulton is independently certified to remove 99.999% of cysts and 99.99% of bacteria. It removes 99.99% of material greater than 0.9 micron and 99.9% of material between 0.5-0.8 microns. Doulton also provide stats on heavy metal reduction, chlorine reduction, organics, insecticides etc. Go google other manufacturer specs and see how much time you can waste looking for stuff that doesn't exist, I spent hours.

    Given my reluctance to spend such a lot of money on a single filter ($75), the rep threw in a sedimentary filter and shipping was free. Even though he/the Doulton was by far the most expensive, his willingness to find answers to my questions was definitely one of the reasons I went with him and the product he recommended.
    Last edited by MrFreddofrog; 25th October 2015 at 04:20 AM.

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    Will work- but not as a softening filter for coffee....

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    No softening required. My water hardness varies from 61-73 with a 66ppm average.

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    Very handy for WA WC to publish that data.

    At 66ppm I think HX machines will still generate scale but at a slower rate. I think levels need to drop to around 20ppm to be considered 'non-scaling'?

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    Yeah, amazing what info you can find when you talk to people who actually know something

    I agree 66ppm is not perfect but I'm hoping with regular descaling it will keep it under control. I'm yet to work out what "regular" means though.

    Presently I just water backflush after every coffee making session and chemical backflush weekly, which is twice now given I've had my new machine for only 2 weeks.

    Edit, btw I only average 1 cup a day so not much really.

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    Regular descaling would be a tedious process. To me much like a regular enema. Both water intensive, time consuming and with potentially unpleasant side-effects. (At your volume, however, probably less than once per year)

    It's probably cheaper and less work to buy an in-tank filter (<$10) and recharge it (in a solution) once in a while. That should guarantee levels reduce to usually being well under 50ppm - I think at that level it would be considered boiler 'safe' in a low volume domestic environment.

    But I'm no expert

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    Water treatment is a complex issue with some people trying to sell you somethings that you donít need.

    If your town or city supply is well treated cysts should be no problem but check with your water supplier to see what treatment they use

    Ion exchange resins and reverse osmosis is used to change or remove the chemicals in the water that may cause scale build-up that may affect the operation of your machine. Carbon filters may remove some undesirables but do not prevent scale build-up.

    I triple treat my Sydney water with a benchtop filter, a Brita Maxtra Jug and the Breville in tank filter. My machine has gone happily for over 4 years without any need to de-scale.

    Search this site and go to the websites of our Site Sponsors for advice.

    Barry

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    There has already been some very good advice offered so far, from what I have read...

    I guess it's up to the individual what they do with it...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WantRancilio10 View Post
    Wow, that seems very different to what the (BES920) manual says, not that I've fully read that section yet. I work on a need to know basis and a full descale still some time off so I haven't bothered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    I work on a need to know basis and a full descale still some time off ...
    Re-charge your filter(s) regularly and that part of the manual can remain 'sealed'.
    MrFreddofrog likes this.

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    Brita have released a new variant of the C150 series: C150 Finest..

    Looks good for areas <250ppm TDH. The biggest benefit is inbuilt pH buffering which will overcome acidification which can occur in high hardness/TDH situations.

    Gotchas are it must be vertically mounted and capacity decreases to ~3000L. It's been added to our range- initially as a replacement cartridge only.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Brita have released a new variant of the C150 series: C150 Finest..

    Looks good for areas <250ppm TDH. The biggest benefit is inbuilt pH buffering which will overcome acidification which can occur in high hardness/TDH situations.

    Gotchas are it must be vertically mounted and capacity decreases to ~3000L. It's been added to our range- initially as a replacement cartridge only.
    Even though I've got my filters, just out of curiosity I thought I'd see if Brita's technical specs has any info to back up their claims of reducing chlorine, coarse & fine particles, hardness etc.

    The Oz website doesnt even have this product but I eventually found it on the UK one. Guess what, they, did, kinda, for chlorine at least, >97% so pretty b good. I couldnt find anything to substantiate their other claims but at least they had something. That is better than most.



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