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Thread: Power rating

  1. #1
    BFY
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    Power rating

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi again

    Just a quick question with regards to how much power my coffee machine draws.
    There's a label that says max 4850w so I would guess that's the pull while heating?

    Another just says 4500w, would that be at normal operating temp?

    I'm in the market for an inverter generator to power my rancilio and just want to be sure of things before I do

    Thanks in advance
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  2. #2
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    G'day mate....

    The 4500W most likely refers to the rating of the Heating Elements in the Boiler and the 4850W refers to to when the Boiler is heating and the Pump Motor (and any other small loads) is running.

    With regard to sizing the Inverter for this, are you going to be supplying any other loads such as a Frig, Pressurising Feed Pump, etc etc? These will have to be accounted for in the final decision. At the very least, I would suggest that you size the Inverter/Generator to the total of the major loads, then add another 50%....
    For example, If the total of major loads comes to 5000W, then the Inverter/Generator size recommendation would be 7500W...

    Mal.
    P.S.
    Who will be completing the work for you, wiring, distribution board (if needed), etc?
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    20 amps or so. Watts = Volts X Current
    Most house circuits are 10 amp.

  4. #4
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seamad View Post
    20 amps or so. Watts = Volts X Current
    Most house circuits are 10 amp.
    Say what...

    Mal.
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  5. #5
    BFY
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    No fridge at this stage I should be able to pass health regs with a good quality cool box with a few bags of ice.
    So I have the grinder, 150w and the pressure pump to give mains pressure is 60w. Generator I'm looking at will be a consistent 7.8kva which is 5500w but can go to 8.6kva

    Generator has rcd built in and I'm looking at a 15amp distribution block from a seller (can't mention names unless forum sponsors right?) which also has rcd built in
    So it's literally just plug and brew

  6. #6
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Sounds good to me mate...

    Mal.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    At full draw your Rancilio is going to hit 20+amps ... so choose your power delivery from the generator outlet carefully; there's many a slagged 15amp plug out there. I suggest a heavy-duty, caravan-style lead and a 20amp plug (4.16 amps appx. per kW). Your machine supplier can reduce amp draw by dropping an element if necessary.
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    Segregating the heating element?

    Hello Everyone,

    I was just hoping that someone might be able to help me with an issue involving power for coffee machines.

    We have a 3 group SanRemo Venezia that we use as a mobile coffee cart for events. We have an isolation switch that cuts the power demand of the element that allows us to run our machine on a 15amp plug (as opposed to the original 20amp plug). This is great, however we are sometimes up against the wall if we arrive at an event and it only have access to 10amp sockets.

    Does anyone know if it is possible to segregate part of the element to potentially power it off its own socket. I am hoping that I can wire one part of the element it to its own circuit that would have direct access to a 10amp plug (no association with the rest of the coffee machine at all, I would try to make it run off the active switch for the coffee machine to make sure that it doesn't stay on when the machine is off. The remaining element can then remain on the original circuit that is part of the coffee machine. The idea being that when we come to a place with only 10amp sockets, we would like to be able to power up the machine (which will now only have 1/3 of the element active on a 10 amp plug), power up the 2nd element that is now running off its own power cord to a 10amp socket, and the third element will be isolated and not turned on.

    When we rock up and there is 15amp outlets, we will just plug both the 10amp plugs assocaited with the machine into a 15amp power board and away we go.

    This seems quite doable in my head, but I have never pulled the machine apart to see whats hanging off the end of the heating element.

    Thanks for your help.

  9. #9
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Theoretically this will work. The element for this machine will have six poles. The big elements are six pole so three-phase power can be applied to them. In order to 20amp single phase 240V the poles are jumped (active and common respectively). Your isolation device drops two joined poles so the 5.4kW element is now, say, 3.3kW so a 15amp plug may be used.

    The dangerous part is running a separate active 240V line which needs to be switched, isolated connected to the p/stat, and ... yikes! How about talking to a master electrician?

  10. #10
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprezzatura View Post
    The dangerous part is running a separate active 240V line which needs to be switched, isolated connected to the p/stat, and ... yikes! How about talking to a master electrician?
    Agree...

    Significant safety considerations involved here and a qualified, licensed person should be retained to legally make what ever modifications are necessary to achieve the outcomes you require...


    Mal.
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    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. It made sense in my head, but I don't like playing with electricity, so I will definitely leave it to an expert. I was just trying to work out if it was potentially an option before engaging a professional. It sounds feasible though, so I thank you for your input.

    Porter111

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by porter111 View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. It made sense in my head, but I don't like playing with electricity, so I will definitely leave it to an expert. I was just trying to work out if it was potentially an option before engaging a professional. It sounds feasible though, so I thank you for your input.

    Porter111
    If you go down this track the best bet would be for the electrician to put an interlocking relay on the power to the machine ( fitted internally) ; in other words BOTH power circuits need to be active before anything can turn on.
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  13. #13
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettreaby View Post
    If you go down this track the best bet would be for the electrician to put an interlocking relay on the power to the machine ( fitted internally) ; in other words BOTH power circuits need to be active before anything can turn on.
    Or, a form of Priority Control to match operating circumstances.
    Can be accommodated quite simply...

    Mal.
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    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks for your responses. I just wanted to give feedback for those who would be thinking about going down this path.

    I had the electrician come out and check it out. He was able to quite easily isolate one of the elements onto its own power lead still utilising the coffee machines rotary switch. We also have the ability to switch off one of the two remaining elements.

    After completing the work, we were able to plug the whole coffee machine into 2 x 10amp plugs in my house and run the full coffee machine. He tested the ohms and found that if we run the two elements on the one lead, we just hit over 2400watts, but with one element isolated, its all good to go.

    Have had two test runs now for events and the thing runs like a dream able to cope with two baristas running it flat out.

    Next step is to install a couple an LED on the new 10amp line to indicate when it is receiving power, just in case is trips and you have no way of being aware that it has.

    Thanks for your help and input.

    Greg

  15. #15
    BFY
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    Where are you located? This sounds like something I would want to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFY View Post
    Where are you located? This sounds like something I would want to do.
    Hi BFY,

    I'm in NSW. It really wasn't that hard to do (luckily my machine was setup with the correct type of rotary switch and elements which made isolating out the element very easy).

    It really should be an easy job for any qualified electrician and also highly recommended to use one.

    The main reason we wanted to to it, was to ensure that we are 100% legit with any commercial work we do. It would be pretty hard to explain yourself if you burnt down the local school hall cause you did a dodgy home job on the wiring.

  17. #17
    BFY
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    Bummer I was hoping you were in vic so I could use the same sparky. Do they need coffee machine experience?
    I just bought from Bunnings some power block that lets you plug 15a devices into 10amp designed for caravans. I'll give it a go at home see if it works if not I'll go down your path for sure

  18. #18
    BFY
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    Also have you run it on the one element? If so how does it go in busy times?

  19. #19
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    I'd be pretty careful putting 2 plugs on one machine, in fact, I'd strongly recommend against it. Convenient? Yes. Safe? No.

    One safety issue that comes immediately to mind is when it gets serviced, by whoever does it. It would be so easy to isolate one plug and forget about the other, with potentially fatal consequences.

    I also think you'll struggle to get many legit test & taggers to pass it, and workplace safety inspectors would have a fit.

    Sorry to sound so negative, but I think this one is a bad idea.

    Regards,

    Matt.
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  20. #20
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyRay View Post
    I'd be pretty careful putting 2 plugs on one machine, in fact, I'd strongly recommend against it. Convenient? Yes. Safe? No.
    I am no sparky, but that would have to be illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFY View Post
    I just bought from Bunnings some power block that lets you plug 15a devices into 10amp designed for caravans. I'll give it a go at home see if it works if not I'll go down your path for sure
    I hope I am just misinterpreting what I read there. Apart from being damn stupid, it's illegal if it allows you to draw 15A via any 10A circuit.

    Sounds like Darwin award material.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFY View Post
    I just bought from Bunnings some power block that lets you plug 15a devices into 10amp designed for caravans.
    All these 10A to 15A power boards/adapters available from Bunnings and camping stores etc are all perfectly legal. They all have 10A RCD/MCB to limit any current draw exceeding the 10A rating of the outlet. The main reason these are used is for allowing you to legally keep your caravan batteries charge at home plugging into your standard 10A outlet.
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  22. #22
    TC
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    Thanks Andrew,

    At least it sounds like they broadly do what they should...

  23. #23
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    I found the 10 to 15 amp adapter online at Bunnings. It is like an RCD box with a 15 amp outlet and 10 amp plug. It does allow devices with 15 amp plug tops to be plugged into 10 amp supplies, but current is limited by a 10 amp circuit breaker, which makes it technically safe. It does not allow 15 amps to flow continuously, so if the appliance draws too much current (I.e. >10 amps for extended periods) it will shut off. This may or may not work with various coffee machines with 15 amp plugs, it depends on the characteristics of the specific load applied.

    Regards,

    Matt.

    Edit: whoops, Caffeinatedandrew has already answered this one :-)

  24. #24
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyRay View Post
    I found the 10 to 15 amp adapter online at Bunnings. It is like an RCD box with a 15 amp outlet and 10 amp plug. It does allow devices with 15 amp plug tops to be plugged into 10 amp supplies, but current is limited by a 10 amp circuit breaker, which makes it technically safe. It does not allow 15 amps to flow continuously, so if the appliance draws too much current (I.e. >10 amps for extended periods) it will shut off. This may or may not work with various coffee machines with 15 amp plugs, it depends on the characteristics of the specific load applied.

    Regards,

    Matt.

    Edit: whoops, Caffeinatedandrew has already answered this one :-)
    Load is sustained at start up. After the boiler reaches working pressure the load is top up. If you're smashed you'll be looking at sustained load again. I recommend you have a top-notch (i.e., newish) element. If your element is fouled with scale load is automatically sustained longer because it takes longer to transfer heat to the water in the boiler.

    Limestone, or scale-precipitate, like any rock, is a very poor heat conductor.
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  25. #25
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    I've been thinking about reducing the current draw of a large machine while still being able to keep up while being smashed.

    Some of the posters above have indicated that they have had some elements disconnected to allow a 10 or 15 amp plug (done it myself) to be used particularly in "portable" or temporary situations. Obviously this reduces the machines ability to recover when under high load. One option may be to try and source a small 2400 watt portable hot water service, which could then be plumbed in immediately prior to the coffee machine. If this was plugged into a separate circuit, it would assist the machine's recovery by pre heating the water to a certain degree while keeping everything legal and safe. Of course a suitable HWS would have to be found, and the outlet pipes would have to be insulated and be located in very close proximity to the machine. Pressures and pump requirements would have to be considered, but it could be done.

    Regards,

    Matt

  26. #26
    BFY
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    I've got a small hot water heater that plugs inline warms up to 35 degrees

  27. #27
    BFY
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    My coffee machine has a rotary switch. If I turn it to the right its all systems go. I'm pretty sure the left is pump only no heating elements.

    I'm guessing I could get my electrician mate to wire it up in such a way the right is full power and left is 10amp?

  28. #28
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by BFY View Post
    My coffee machine has a rotary switch. If I turn it to the right its all systems go. I'm pretty sure the left is pump only no heating elements.

    I'm guessing I could get my electrician mate to wire it up in such a way the right is full power and left is 10amp?
    You can. The rotary three-position cam switch is wired to provide power to the pump and PCB on 1 and pump, PCB and heating element on 2. Ensure that total amp draw doesn't exceed rating on cam switch (usual 32amp on a larger 3 position switch).



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