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Thread: Water filtration where plumb in isn't possible

  1. #1
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    Water filtration where plumb in isn't possible

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    Hear a lot about the C150 as a standard for plumb in. What about for situations where plumb in isn't possible? Is there a system such as a water jug based filtration system that the site sponsors 'endorse' as being suitable for minimising scale build up in tank based espresso machines?
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Lovey's Avatar
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    I bought a C150 system which I run the filtered water through a 3 way mixer tap (replacement of the old mixer) into a jug and then into the water tank of my machine. You could also mount a separate filter tap on or near you sink if you're able to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Hear a lot about the C150 as a standard for plumb in. What about for situations where plumb in isn't possible? Is there a system such as a water jug based filtration system that the site sponsors 'endorse' as being suitable for minimising scale build up in tank based espresso machines?
    Aqua Pro benchtop filtration system | Talk Coffee
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I have this system at home. Attached to the tap in the kitchen sink, it happily sits out of the way. Absolutely worth it IMO.
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    Thanks for the advice. I think something like the Aqua Pro looks good if I do need to upgrade. Had a test done at a local pool chemical supplier on the current drinking water filter that we had for a while as an add-on to the kitchen tap.

    Does anyone know enough about this to recommend whether this water is suitable for stainless steel boilers (Linea Mini) ? Are enough data points captured?

    TDS: 39
    Free Chlorine: 0
    Cyanuric Acid: 0
    Total Chlorine: 0
    PH: 6.9
    Total Alkalinity: 10
    Calcium Hardness: 20
    Phosphate: 0

  6. #6
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    Think I would prefer to use a specialist coffee-machine water filter supplier like several of our Site Sponsors for instance. Those numbers are a bit vague to be honest and I think it would definitely be cost effective given the quality of machine you're trying to protect...

    Mal.

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    I bought the C150 kit from jetblack that comes with a tap, so no plumb in directly to machine. If you're handy you can install it yourself, I just drilled a hole in one of the corners of my sink for the tap to go in, it looks pretty nice. I just fill a jug and pour that into the tank.
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    Water filtration is sooo dodgy. Ask the shop if they can verify any claims. I can almost guarantee they can't.

    After much searching I found Doulton water filters, UK made for 100 years, and independently certified by the NSF.

    I got a under the counter job, with a cheap 5 micron first stage and a commercial link removed per Site Posting Policy 0.2 micron Doulton ceramic to do the real filtering.
    Last edited by Javaphile; 10th June 2016 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Commericial link(s) removed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Does anyone know enough about this to recommend whether this water is suitable for stainless steel boilers (Linea Mini)
    You'll be fine.... Just use something to keep the muck out. Even a Brita will suffice with your numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Water filtration is sooo dodgy
    Your 0.2 micron does absolutely nothing to soften water. Whilst it will deliver good drinking water, it will not make a zac of difference in terms of scale deposition in an espresso machine unless your primary filter is a softening one.

    In most areas of Perth, you will ultimately be in big trouble. Let's not further propagate misinformation when it comes to filtration for espresso machines.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    I got a under the counter job, with a cheap 5 micron first stage and a 0.2 micron Doulton ceramic to do the real filtering.
    As far as I know it's opposite:


    Stage 1: Ceramic filter (Pre-Filter):
    It is made from Sterasyl Microfilter which provides self-sterilising properties.
    The first stage of this filtration process performs two fundamental functions.
    First, to remove bacteria and unwanted contaminants and the second is to protect the carbon post filter.


    Stage 2: Carbon Block (Post Filter):
    At this second stage in the filtration process, bad odour and taste are removed
    as well as chlorine and heavy metals.


    And finally water softener if required.
    I'm using small internal one which should be enough for Melbourne water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    You'll be fine.... Just use something to keep the muck out. Even a Brita will suffice with your numbers.



    Your 0.2 micron does absolutely nothing to soften water. Whilst it will deliver good drinking water, it will not make a zac of difference in terms of scale deposition in an espresso machine unless your primary filter is a softening one.

    In most areas of Perth, you will ultimately be in big trouble. Let's not further propagate misinformation when it comes to filtration for espresso machines.
    No misinformation at all. I made no claim about its ability to soften water.

    The point of the post was to alert the OP to all the unsubstantiated claims made by water filter companies.

    And I went one step further and recommended a reputable company to save him all the trouble I had in trying to find one. While I have no need to soften my water I'd hazard a guess Doulton have something in their product range that will do the job.

    Edit: If a company claims its product softens water, the obvious question I'd be asking is by how much? If they can't provide the data to back up their claims, go elsewhere, there are companies that can.

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    True. I meant I have a separate 5 micro filter before the Doulton. Reduces the load on the Doulton and 5 micron filters are as cheap as chips. Iirc the company even threw one in for free that's how cheap they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    True. I meant I have a separate 5 micro filter before the Doulton. Reduces the load on the Doulton and 5 micron filters are as cheap as chips. Iirc the company even threw one in for free that's how cheap they are.
    Unless it's a softening filter, it still doesn't do a zac for hardness. Even if it does, it may still be unsuitable.

    Drinking water filters are not suitable for espresso machines in areas where TH and/or TDS are high. I suggest you have a read over Filtration | Talk Coffee and use the information as applicable to your specific circumstances. For much of Perth, the only acceptable solutions are RO, remineralised RO or filtered bottled.

    Choose to ignore it? Not my problem....

    Perth- where espresso machines go to die...Said it before, say it again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Unless it's a softening filter, it still doesn't do a zac for hardness. Even if it does, it may still be unsuitable.

    Drinking water filters are not suitable for espresso machines in areas where TH and/or TDS are high. I suggest you have a read over Filtration | Talk Coffee and use the information as applicable to your specific circumstances. For much of Perth, the only acceptable solutions are RO, remineralised RO or filtered bottled.

    Choose to ignore it? Not my problem....

    Perth- where espresso machines go to die...Said it before, say it again...
    This is concerning for me. I am in Perth and have a 3 stage filtration system called "hi flow" it does have softening according to the tech sheet, however I haven't had my water tested?

    Where can I have my water tested? as I would hate to kill my machine prematurely due to poor water, as I thought I had taken the necessary precautions with filtration already.

    My kettle is six years old an has been using the filtered water since day 1 and there is no scale at all inside it. Is this indicative of good water or not really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Unless it's a softening filter, it still doesn't do a zac for hardness. Even if it does, it may still be unsuitable.

    Drinking water filters are not suitable for espresso machines in areas where TH and/or TDS are high. I suggest you have a read over Filtration | Talk Coffee and use the information as applicable to your specific circumstances. For much of Perth, the only acceptable solutions are RO, remineralised RO or filtered bottled.

    Choose to ignore it? Not my problem....

    Perth- where espresso machines go to die...Said it before, say it again...
    You really should stop spreading misinformation and unhelpful comments such as "Perth- where espresso machines go to die..." If you care to be educated you should read the The Water Corps annual water quality reports and see Perth water hardness is actually very variable and localised depending on your source reservoir. (My water hardness is fine, but thanks for asking)

    Or you can choose to ignore my advice and continue to make sweeping generalisations and use fear tactics to con people into buying equipment they may not actually need. But as you say, not my problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boggas View Post
    This is concerning for me. I am in Perth and have a 3 stage filtration system called "hi flow" it does have softening according to the tech sheet, however I haven't had my water tested?

    Where can I have my water tested? as I would hate to kill my machine prematurely due to poor water, as I thought I had taken the necessary precautions with filtration already.

    My kettle is six years old an has been using the filtered water since day 1 and there is no scale at all inside it. Is this indicative of good water or not really?
    You don't need to have it tested. Unlike other states it seems, the WA Water Corp does a great job of publishing water quality data. You can either grab their latest annual report or just call them up and ask for their latest test results. Give them your address and they'll pin point which reservoir you get your water from. Here is the latest annual report but I'm pretty sure they do quarterly testing also. You want Appendix C - table 3 for hardness testing. If your kettle is fine then I'm guessing your water isn't coming from Two Rocks or Yanchep. Those places are off the charts

  17. #17
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    Yes mate, I know that. It's why we recommend that it's best to know your water prior to choosing the wrong solution for your circumstances.

    Incorrect filtration in many locations leeds to severe scaling. If our recommendations are taken as a generalisation, no harm will be done. On the other hand, if yours are, significant damage may occur. What I'm pretty sure is that my experience of thousands of machines including hundreds in Perth probably exceeds your experience of perhaps a handful in your house.

    I couldn't give a toss whether we sell filters or not and if you think sales of them pay the rent, dreamin'. I do however care when a client calls with a dead machine and the cause is poor water.

    Perth techs pick up the pieces for ill-informed espresso machine owners each day. I speak to them on a weekly basis. We recommend that owners ensure that they educate themselves to protect their machine. It saves us all the tedious work of removing scale.

    So, just in case you didn't understand it, drinking water filters are not suitable for espresso machines in areas where TH and/or TDS are high.
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    Why are you banging on about this? Just in case you still don't get it, as per my original post, water filtration is a dodgy area and make sure you verify any claims.

    That was my ONLY recommendation. You should re-read my original post and stop putting words in other people's mouths.

    The only reason I mentioned my filter is because Doulton was the ONLY company I found that independently tests their products. If you know of any others please do enlighten all of us.

  19. #19
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    Doulton make drinking water filters and yours is a drinking water filter. Pure and simple..

    Because you clearly still don't get it , without additional softening your suggestion is for the overwhelming majority of Australia's land mass unsuitable. Do you need to declare an interest in Douton?

    Now stop being a silly and go have a decaf. We have sufficient boolsheet here without you adding to it.
    Last edited by TC; 11th June 2016 at 08:16 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    You don't need to have it tested. Unlike other states it seems, the WA Water Corp does a great job of publishing water quality data. You can either grab their latest annual report or just call them up and ask for their latest test results. Give them your address and they'll pin point which reservoir you get your water from. Here is the latest annual report but I'm pretty sure they do quarterly testing also. You want Appendix C - table 3 for hardness testing. If your kettle is fine then I'm guessing your water isn't coming from Two Rocks or Yanchep. Those places are off the charts
    While this is a handy resource and it's great that they provide this information any plumber, water quality or water filtration expert worth their salt will tell you that it doesn't always equate to the same numbers at the tap in your house. To be absolutely sure you should get the water from your tap tested as it's quality will be specific to your house and may even be different to your neighbours. There's been a lot of debate about this already over the years on various forums and even most who don't believe things are as bad as what some people might make out still agree that the best approach is one of caution.
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    Definitely 'something' in the water in WA.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caps View Post
    Definitely 'something' in the water in WA.....
    Haha. You win the internets for today.

  23. #23
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    You can get water hardness test strips, would be worthwhile to confirm the hardness in the house.

    Cheers

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    WOW, you still don't get it. Let me try and explain it another way. My post was NEVER about me and my filter. It was about the lack of integrity in the water filtration business. Comment about this rather than playing keyboard warrior and looking for arguments where non exists.

    EDIT: btw I have no interest in Doulton, I wish I did. They have been around since the 1840s, so getting close to 200 years. Obviously they must be doing something right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    While this is a handy resource and it's great that they provide this information any plumber, water quality or water filtration expert worth their salt will tell you that it doesn't always equate to the same numbers at the tap in your house. To be absolutely sure you should get the water from your tap tested as it's quality will be specific to your house and may even be different to your neighbours. There's been a lot of debate about this already over the years on various forums and even most who don't believe things are as bad as what some people might make out still agree that the best approach is one of caution.
    True, this is a real debatable topic rather than Talk-Coffees searching for an argument where non exists. Is it better to get your own individual water tested which most people will only ever do once or to rely on the government body to test the source regularly. Any statistician will tell you one data point is worth sweet FA. Being a data based guy, I lean towards more data equalling more reliable though I can understand why people would still choose to measure their own water, be it only once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Let me try and explain it another way...
    To others- Yes, have your water tested so you can make the right choices.

    FF. My post was to inform others that drinking water filters are often unsuitable for espresso machines in Australia. It's not about you and frankly, I couldn't give a hoot what filter you choose. Get over it.

    Here's another Doulton for you.

    c2039fa8d99c776f276f706ff2c98e18.jpg
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    Wow, what round are we up to now?
    I've lost count of the "bell-rings".

    Just reconfirms as to why I don't post on this forum much.

    Forum: A medium to discuss, debate and confer, not for abuse and denigration.
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    Water filtration where plumb in isn't possible

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    True, this is a real debatable topic rather than Talk-Coffees searching for an argument where non exists. Is it better to get your own individual water tested which most people will only ever do once or to rely on the government body to test the source regularly. Any statistician will tell you one data point is worth sweet FA. Being a data based guy, I lean towards more data equalling more reliable though I can understand why people would still choose to measure their own water, be it only once.
    Look I hear ya, don't get me wrong I'm a pragmatic kinda guy that likes numbers too so I fully understand that a larger collection of data is more attractive than a single source. But I work with fluids (admittedly it's a petroleum fuel rather than water) and I've seen the specs for our product change when it travels just a few meters. Water might be less volatile, but when it's traveling many km's through various kinds of pipes and valves it has ample opportunity to change along the way. I certainly wouldn't be making any assumptions and maybe getting both reports would give a clear picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    To others- Yes, have your water tested so you can make the right choices.

    FF. My post was to inform others that drinking water filters are often unsuitable for espresso machines in Australia. It's not about you and frankly, I couldn't give a hoot what filter you choose. Get over it.

    Here's another Doulton for you.

    c2039fa8d99c776f276f706ff2c98e18.jpg
    So you agree that water filtration is a dodgy area, or at least you haven't disagreed and as they say silence is consensus. Finally, we have some common ground.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfreddofrog View Post
    so you agree that water filtration is a dodgy area, or at least you haven't disagreed and as they say silence is consensus. Finally, we have some common ground.
    ff........ffs!!!
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    So you agree that water filtration is a dodgy area, or at least you haven't disagreed and as they say silence is consensus. Finally, we have some common ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    ff........ffs!!!
    I agree that you can attempt to put words in the mouth of someone else. FFS indeed.

    Take a look outside. You may notice winter has arrived. Now argue with yourself or better still come out from under your bridge and get a life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    ff........ffs!!!
    Sorry dude. When someone has a go at me and accuses me of saying things I didn't say, I like most people take offence. I don't expect an apology anytime soon but that's ok, I'm a big boy, I won't loose any sleep over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I agree that you can attempt to put words in the mouth of someone else. FFS indeed.

    Take a look outside. You may notice winter has arrived. Now argue with yourself or better still, get a life.
    Not here, it's a beautiful sunny day. I've done my parental sporting duties this morning and now off to do some outdoor rock climbing so I do have a life.

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    This is just an embarrasing thread all round
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    This is just an embarrasing thread all round
    Indeed it is, feel sorry for the OP...

    Time to put it to bed I reckon.

    Mal.
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    All, as the initiator of this thread I am comfortable that my original query was resolved by both responses 2 and 3. In the interest of all forum participants can we please not post any further comments via this thread. Thanks in advance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    This is just an embarrasing thread all round
    Not embarrassing at all, just people believing in what they believe to be true. But don't tell any body, I'm going for Chris because he is actually there seeing with his own two eyes what bad water does.
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    To be fair any opinion contrary to the norm gets shut down pretty hard on here, think everyone needs to have a few less coffees and chill out

    It's just coffee folks, take a breath and stop smashing your keyboards.
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  39. #39
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    To be fair any opinion contrary to the norm gets shut down pretty hard on here
    No, I don't agree with that sentiment...

    For some reason, some people seem to believe that decades as a professional in the specialist coffee industry, doesn't afford one the ability to collect and retain significant knowledge in this specialised area, rather, it seems to make one a target.
    A little bit of respect and acknowledgement of this would go a long way to avoiding this kind of carry-on in the first place. Sure, we all have our areas of specialised knowledge, training, qualifications and all the rest of it. Chris's knowledge and experience happens to encompass a far wider area of expertise than that of the coffee industry alone and I for one have appreciated his assistance in many instances over many, many years...

    Thanks mate...

    Mal.
    Last edited by Dimal; 12th June 2016 at 06:40 PM.
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  40. #40
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    Thank you for your kind words Mal.

    It continues to be an honour and a pleasure.

    Chris
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    I've just seen this post. What the heck was this about? Chis is right, hard water will mess your machine, and most filters don't deal with this. So eyes open when you choose your filter. Wow, a huge amount of ego here.

    BTW I won't be looking at this post again
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  42. #42
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Perth- where espresso machines go to die...Said it before, say it again...
    Bugger. I guess I'll be in contact again for one of the Aquapros

    R



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