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Thread: Should I buy a HX .. ?

  1. #1
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    Should I buy a HX .. ?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Just new to the forums and reading a lot.

    Looking for for my first prosumer machine.

    Im down to two choices. One is HX and one is double boiler.

    Im not sure which way to go and would love and advice from the knowledgable people here. Hoping this question can sort of be answered but here goes. Hx or DB ?

    Some points so far...

    HX
    pressure stat for temp control
    has a e61 group head
    pre infusion
    allow 30 min warm up but can use a timer at the power point for morning start up.


    DB
    has a PID for boiler temp
    shot timer too which is nice
    quick start up time without using and addition timer.


    Is is one going to perform better ? I'm really unsure which will serve me better. I drink milk based drinks. Weekdays on 1 or 2 a day. Maybe 3 on week end days.

    My my debate in my head is pressure stat vs PID. Do I need e61 and how much can it effect the shot. Will the timer be OK to use and not effect anything. I do like the added feature of the shot timer on the DB machine.

    Is there any other considerations in a machine I should consider as major?

    Any any help would be really appreciated as I'd really like to pull the trigger on a new toy ASAP!

  2. #2
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    Welcome Bishy,

    FWIW, my opinion is that your brief is pure HX. Have a read over Buying Guide- Espresso machines | Talk Coffee for some reasons...

    Both will be great, the DB is probably overkill, but you should ultimately choose the one you like...

    Cheers

    Chris

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    Reading your buying guide..

    what if I do move to espresso shots only later down the track. I'm not sure where my coffee journey will take me just yet. At the moment I like more nutty flavours and not the fruity flavours. Will the HX still be the better option? Is this based on the low volume I require?
    Is the e61 something that is more a factor in shot taste?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Evening Bishy, welcome to Coffee Snobs.

    I'm a long time HX machine user, I pull shots and make cappuccino's daily.

    A well set up quality HX machine is very temperature stable, and will do everything you need now and well into the future, I don't feel a PID is necessary.

    The E61 group head has been around for a long time and is a proven performer, accessories i.e. baskets, tampers, replacement seals are readily available.

    Single boiler E61 machines are reliable and produce excellent coffee, because of their design are relatively easy to maintain.

    You ask "Is there any other considerations" very definitely, to realise the potential of any good machine you will also need a decent grinder as well as good quality fresh beans, Compak and Macap are very popular quality grinders (Chris can help here) and freshly roasted beans are available from right here on Beanbay
    CoffeeSnobs - BeanBayGood luck with your quest.
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  5. #5
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    Thanks Yelta.
    After reading your reply I am more inclined to go with the HX machine now. Although I change my mind like my underpants. I do realise and understand I need a quality grinder and fresh beans are a must.


    Thaks dodgy x. One of the machines i like is on your list in the buyers guide
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    From the descriptions it seems that you're comparing e61 HX and Breville DB (shot timers etc).

    Personally some of the factors holds me back from purchasing an e61 DB;

    1. I only drink 1-2 coffees a day which means water can go stale in the boiler unless you flush a lot. unlike with HX you always get “fresh" water from the tank.

    2. I drink milk-based coffee mostly. DB will probably not make much difference in the cup.

    3. I live in an area where tap water is sub-optimal to say the least. 1 boiler is easier to descale than 2.

    4. DB generally is lot dearer than HX. (apart from Breville and Expobar).

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    Thanks symphonie. No I'm not interested in the breville line. Italian or German quality only
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  8. #8
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    In my humble opinion, I tend to more like HX than DB machine for health reason, because the HX machine drawing fresh water direct from water line, but not the water from inside the boiler. Correct me if I am wrong

  9. #9
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    Not really a problem with quality Dual Boiler machines...

    The Brew Boiler is normally much smaller than the Steam Boiler so proportionally, water turnover is quite high when in regular use...

    Mal.

    SNAP!!

  10. #10
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    Bishy;

    I found that this is very personal DB or HX will do the job with not a problem.

    You are welcome to come and see as and try both machines

    Regards

    Renzo

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    Hi Di Bartoli

    thank you for the offer. From your sig you are in Bondi. I am in Wollongong. I MIGHT come up but it is a long way to travel.

    I think I am leaning towards a HX as advised now more and more.

    The PID and shot timer were two things I really liked but now I'm thinking once adjusted the pressure stat or PID I don't think I will actually change the temp. For what I read the pressure stat is very stable once set with the e61.
    I think I want the e61 too near the top of the criteria list.
    The shot timer would be nice but not a deal breaker really over the above mentioned.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    Hi Di Bartoli

    thank you for the offer. From your sig you are in Bondi. I am in Wollongong. I MIGHT come up but it is a long way to travel.

    I think I am leaning towards a HX as advised now more and more.

    The PID and shot timer were two things I really liked but now I'm thinking once adjusted the pressure stat or PID I don't think I will actually change the temp. For what I read the pressure stat is very stable once set with the e61.
    I think I want the e61 too near the top of the criteria list.
    The shot timer would be nice but not a deal breaker really over the above mentioned.
    Hi Bishy,

    Thanks for your reply

    No problem if you can't make the trip to Sydney. As said, the right recommendation is subject to the individual's circumstances, far more detailed than what this medium can cover. To narrow it down to the right E61 HX for you, feel free to use our Quest tool to do exactly that: http://bit.ly/1mj6n0A

    Regards
    Ofra
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  13. #13
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    I think it would be worth the trip to Bondi Bishy. You're making a fairly major purchase. You will get good advice from specialists and it will help with your decision to see the machines in real life with a bit of hands-on or demo.

    Do you already have a good grinder? You don't want to pair a high quality espresso machine with a sub-standard grinder.
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  14. #14
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    Great advise, flynnaus. We're delighted to assist over the phone, email, online chat, tailoring tool or in person.

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    I used to travel from Nowra to Sydney for a hamburger, more than a few years ago
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I used to travel from Nowra to Sydney for a hamburger, more than a few years ago
    I had a laugh we see CS's driving to us from Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra and even Wagga Wagga. And if we know they're coming beforehand, we make sure they receive right there and then their free 1 hour home barista training, to make their trip worthwhile
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  17. #17
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    Sounds like an offer too good to refuse, in my book...

    Mal.
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  18. #18
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    Should I buy a HX .. ?

    Yeah I reckon. The Gong to Bondi is nothing, especially when a purchase like this is involved. I used to do day trips bigger than that all the time when I lived in Sydney - Blue Mountains for climbing, Central Coast or Illawarra for surfing, hell I even drove to Thredbo for a day's snowboarding once!! (Yes, you read that right - Sydney to Thredbo for a day's snowboarding and back again).

    And my vote would be to buy whatever you feel best about. If it was me I'd choose quality over a list of specs and features. You don't need a DB to get amazing coffee, espressos included.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    (Yes, you read that right - Sydney to Thredbo for a day's snowboarding and back again)..
    Meh. I would have been more impressed if you drove back to Sydney at lunchtime for a burger before returning to the snow.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Yeah I reckon. The Gong to Bondi is nothing, especially when a purchase like this is involved. I used to do day trips bigger than that all the time when I lived in Sydney - Blue Mountains for climbing, Central Coast or Illawarra for surfing, hell I even drove to Thredbo for a day's snowboarding once!! (Yes, you read that right - Sydney to Thredbo for a day's snowboarding and back again).

    And my vote would be to buy whatever you feel best about. If it was me I'd choose quality over a list of specs and features. You don't need a DB to get amazing coffee, espressos included.
    Had a chuckle when I read this Leroy.

    When I was a young bloke, had a good friend who would drive from Adelaide to Melbourne and back every weekend to visit a lady friend, I imagine so they could share a cup of coffee.

    I agree with your thoughts on machines, I might add, I prefer simplicity, particularly when it comes to electronic bells and whistles, electronics are great when all is well, however I see them a weak links and a potential for expensive repairs.

    Perhaps I do have Luddite tendencies, however the approach has served me well over quite a long period of time, I'm not an early adopter of technology.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    Meh. I would have been more impressed if you drove back to Sydney at lunchtime for a burger before returning to the snow.
    True that would've been more impressive. All we managed was a breakfast stop at Maccas in Queenbeyan. To be fair I was doing it all in my 1976 Kombi Camper.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    I think it would be worth the trip to Bondi Bishy. You're making a fairly major purchase. You will get good advice from specialists and it will help with your decision to see the machines in real life with a bit of hands-on or demo.

    Do you already have a good grinder? You don't want to pair a high quality espresso machine with a sub-standard grinder.
    Bishy, I'm with flynnaus.

    I recently purchased a Profitec Pro 700 from Renzo and Ofra at Di Bartoli. There are a couple of reasons why the trip North is worth considering. Di Bartoli keep a large range of HX and double boiler machines on the bench in the shop. You can go in and have a play and talk directly about your needs or, in the case of my recent purchase, my wants. They also stock a great range of grinders. I upgraded from a manual Mazzer mini to a Rocket Fausto doserless. Di Bartoli also do some machine/grinder packages.

    Apart from the range of machines you can tinker with, you'll get very helpful and personalised advice about your options relative to your needs (or wants). One of the reasons I keep going back to Di Bartoli is because of how generous Renzo and Ofra are in sharing their knowledge of and passion for all things coffee.

    Put fuel in the car and make a day of it!
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  23. #23
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    Dont get me wrong, i agree with Di Bortoli being very generous and i dont doubt his professionalism at all.

    The trip itself is not an issue for me. My wife and I have just had our first baby boy - 14 days ago ! its a little hard at the moment thats all. The moment i can.. i will
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    Should I buy a HX .. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyF View Post
    Bishy, I'm with flynnaus.

    One of the reasons I keep going back to Di Bartoli is because of how generous Renzo and Ofra are in sharing their knowledge of and passion for all things coffee.

    Put fuel in the car and make a day of it!
    Hi ScottyF,

    Thank you so much for throwing out the good word! Hope you love your Fausto, and looking forward for your review..

    Bishy, congratulation for the new addition to the family, we totally understand. This is why we've developed the QUEST that allows any CS that can't make it to store, to receive our tailored suggestions for YOU. All those HX & DB are great and it's difficult to pin the one unless we get to know you better. Pop onto our questionnaire here http://bit.ly/1mj6n0A and we'll land our best professional output in your inbox.

    True, there's nothing like the feel and touch, but lots of our knowledge and passion is shared with you while you go through the QUEST process.

    Good luck and feel free to PM with any questions.

    Ofra
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    Dont get me wrong, i agree with Di Bortoli being very generous and i dont doubt his professionalism at all.

    The trip itself is not an issue for me. My wife and I have just had our first baby boy - 14 days ago ! its a little hard at the moment thats all. The moment i can.. i will
    congrats on the baby - they are real little blessings (amidst the hardships also!) :-)
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  26. #26
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    Di Bortoli - Completed quest.

    Keiran.
    Last edited by BISHY; 6th July 2016 at 05:37 PM. Reason: k
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  27. #27
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    Yes, congratulations on the addition of a budding barista of the future...

    Great stuff guys...

    Mal.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    Di Bortoli - Completed quest.

    Keiran.
    Many thanks Keiran,

    Expect an email in your inbox tomorrow morning.

    Looking forward sharing with you our passion and experience with good coffee.

    Cheers, Ofra
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    Think... I'm down to a pro 500 or rocket premium v3 PID.

    love some feedback / thoughts on these two and which may be better way to go or am I splitting hairs?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    Think... I'm down to a pro 500 or rocket premium v3 PID.

    love some feedback / thoughts on these two and which may be better way to go or am I splitting hairs?
    I can't give a comparison as I have no experience with the rocket, but I do own a Pro 500 and love it!

    The Pro 500 looks really good on the bench, and is giving me great shot quality. I have found the temp stability is great which was a concern for me when I was looking into a HX machine.

    Although I haven't used a rocket I am sure it is also a great machine and you will be happy with either machine.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    Think... I'm down to a pro 500 or rocket premium v3 PID.

    love some feedback / thoughts on these two and which may be better way to go or am I splitting hairs?
    Thanks for your visit to our store, Keiran. I trust you've had a run down with Renzo on both models?

    Maybe if we'd know what you like and dislike in both we can share our thoughts on which one might be better for you.

    Cheers
    Ofra
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  32. #32
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    Yes chatted to Renzo.

    I like the quality of the pro 500 and the reputation it has. Its very stable temp control.

    i like the PID usability and the styling of the V3.

    after seeing these machines with Renzo i do not like lever switches for the steam / hot water. I liked the turn knobs the best so i can manage how much is coming out rather then on/off. Rocket Appartmento knobs i like the best but im happy to settle for the others with their better features.

    i assume start up times are very similar.

  33. #33
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    Thanks for sharing, Keiran

    At the end of the day, after all specs analysis is placed on the table, it is YOUR initial attraction, user preferability, aesthetics preferences and overall perception that will become the deciding factors between such 2 incredibly well built, reputable, with similar internals and reliable machines.

    It is YOU who will wake up in the next 10 years to that machine on your bench. You want to feel comfortable and even excited with it, you want to know intuitively this was the right choice, you want it to look just right as its sitting there proudly between your toaster oven and your tap. You want to be confident it will be working with YOU in any challenge you will throw at it as opposed to against you, you are going to be welcoming not just a new appliance but another addition to the family, to take you to joys you never thought possible, give you comfort, ease and a lighter step to your day as you pull your morning shot and wonder how you could possibly live without that burst of sensation a home well made coffee can deliver.

    A prosumer, striking looking espresso machine isn't just a space occupier appliance on ones bench. If you let it, it will become your best every day companion, the reason you jump out of bed, the crouch you lean on after sleepless nights and the life coach that feeds you with a drive boost each time you make a cuppa. And the better you get at it, the more proud you will become for mastering those flavours while in your PJ, sharing this divinity with your loved one.

    Now, you like knobs, you like the GPP style, you like the PID concept. I think you've got your answer right there..

    Life's too short to drink mediocre coffee. None of the 2 will be a bad choice, none is likely to break down if you look well after it, none will be a problem to fix if they do break down, none will make bad espresso if you got all other ingredients right, but only one will put a smile on your face when you turn her on in the morning...

    We are here to help you jump over that fence and land softly..

    Ofra

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    Yes chatted to Renzo.

    I like the quality of the pro 500 and the reputation it has. Its very stable temp control.

    i like the PID usability and the styling of the V3.

    after seeing these machines with Renzo i do not like lever switches for the steam / hot water. I liked the turn knobs the best so i can manage how much is coming out rather then on/off. Rocket Appartmento knobs i like the best but im happy to settle for the others with their better features.

    i assume start up times are very similar.
    Good pick up re the rotating valves rather than levers Bishy, I've always preferred them, they certainly allow greater control and finesse.

    If it were my choice, I would go for the Rocket every time.

    Good luck with your purchase.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Good pick up re the rotating valves rather than levers Bishy, I've always preferred them, they certainly allow greater control and finesse.

    If it were my choice, I would go for the Rocket every time.

    Good luck with your purchase.
    Each to their own. The steam flow from a lever type steam knob can easily be controlled depending on how far the lever is toggled. They are not simply ON/OFF as Bishy has suggested. I don't see any loss of finesse, having used both types. The levers have the added advantage of a very quick on/off if required (full depression of the knob)- very handy when steaming a large jug- a quick ON and turn on to other things like getting the cups ready whilst full steam is being applied.
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    sorry but i did not get a sense that the levers can have finesse any where near the same as the turn knobs. just my opinion though.

  37. #37
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    sorry but i did not get a sense that the levers can have finesse any where near the same as the turn knobs. just my opinion though.
    I agree, have used both and much prefer the rotary valves.

    However as Gavisconi007 commented to each his own.

    I can certainly see why retailers give toggles the thumbs up, seems many machines incorporate them now, so there is a need that they be seen as (the way to go)

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    We don't believe there is 'better' or 'worse', it is an individual call. However, working with both intensively, we found that the Profi (levers) is an easier way for prosumer gear newbies to achieve fast consistency of a desired milk texture. When not required to evaluate distance of valve turning, we tend to focus instantaneously on the whirlpool in the jug. This enables immediate rotation, allowing maximum spins, supporting silky microfoam time after time.

    We found students in our workshops achieving microfoam faster with the 'profi' system than those using knobs. On the flip side, if you're not used to powerful steam, you may find 'full steam' power intimidating with the levers, and having few jugs spill on the bench before getting used to it. An experienced home barista CAN get good results from both or at least tune in fast to master the other system if need be.
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    im definitely in the intimidated category.. maybe why i like the turn knobs as you suggest
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    Completely valid, Keiran

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BISHY View Post
    im definitely in the intimidated category.. maybe why i like the turn knobs as you suggest
    I'm certainly not intimidated by toggles, simply prefer rotary, perhaps it's a case of the devil you know.

  42. #42
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    The immediate "OFF" with the toggles is a good thing when the milk gets to over-flowing point.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    The immediate "OFF" with the toggles is a good thing when the milk gets to over-flowing point.
    ....but training would be an even better thing as milk should not have proceeded to that point!

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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Has anyone got any temp testing figures from the rocket Giotto premium v3 PID for stability?



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