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Thread: Regulate the Coffee Industry?

  1. #1
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    Regulate the Coffee Industry?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Over the weekend I went with my wife to go get a Coffee and had to drive past possibly 100 or more locations that sell espresso to actually reach a location where folk were that had, the experience, the equipment and of course the passion to create (read: make) espresso.

    It got me thinking and I accept that I look too deeply into matters at times but I wondered, would the coffee industry be best served if it were regulated by laws, rules and guidelines that ensured that people in business that sold coffee to the public we're actually qualified to do so?

    So many times when travelling from point A to B I've fallen into the trap of purchasing crap espresso even after trying to research my purchase before purchase. It seems these days, anyone can buy a good machine, use good quality beans and yet bugger the process up so badly leaving the consumer exposed to all sorts of crap with virtually no recourse whatsoever.

    A few weeks ago, I quizzed a Barista (& I use this term loosely) before purchase and he proclaimed to be "all that" yet what he served to me was revolting, scalding hot, over extracted DUNG. By the time I was holding the beverage it was already paid for and he wasn't even interested in what I thought about it. It was discarded and I left vowing not to return.

    Anyway, fast forward to my most recent purchase (Weekend just gone), a competent barista using good equipment, fresh beans and shovel loads of enthusiasm/passion created a wonderful experience. It was whilst savouring that I wonder how the 'industry' could be best served by a dose of regulation/legislation.

    Lets face it, if I hung a sign outside my shop and offered brown paper bags filled with assorted sweets for sale for $4 but ever so neatly filled the bag with excrement and made the customer pay before serving, can you imagine how long it might be before the powers to be swooped? What makes Espresso any different?

    Would a bit of regulation improve the overall situation, help those within the industry that deserve to thrive, thrive?

  2. #2
    Senior Member speleomike's Avatar
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    Hi

    Regulation would be difficult to do in this situation. Regulations imply penalties. Sometimes a pour doesn't work (one stinker bean in a grinder is all it takes) or the blend has changed and the customer doesn't like it. It still might be a perfect shot but "it doesn't taste the same as last time, I want my money back". Do they report that outlet to the regulator? Govts are not going to have "inspectors" going around to cafes testing machiatos. It's not like testing 316 stainless for tensile strength.

    In the same way you can only check that cheese is safe and not whether its actually good cheese. American cheese on pizzas for instance - its safe to eat but not very nice. Hersheys chocolate - it's safe to eat but not chocolate. So similarly coffee should be just regulated, as it currently is, to not contain pesticides, adulterants etc. To extend that to the Barista and regulate their art and pour is fraught with implementation difficulties, testing methodology and cost.

    It's better to just tell bad cafes that their coffee was poor and you wont be back and to keep coming back to good cafes.

    Mike
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    Really?
    If it works, can you please let me know and we can apply the same model to the food industry. Those cheese injected pizza crusts need to be made illegal!
    the problem is that we live in a service culture, and just like the Americans who invented the term , as long as they politely ask for your order and deliver a product that resembles what you ordered, they have provided good customer service . Quality is irrelevant and purely qualitative ! ( have you seen the quality or American food an coffee? It's crap!!)

    i could name lots of restaurants that the masses rave about and I think are crap, yet people go there regularly and pay hundreds for their meal and leave satisfied .
    Unfortunately, the only option you have is to never return .

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    Quote Originally Posted by speleomike View Post
    Hi

    Regulation would be difficult to do in this situation. Regulations imply penalties. Sometimes a pour doesn't work (one stinker bean in a grinder is all it takes) or the blend has changed and the customer doesn't like it. It still might be a perfect shot but "it doesn't taste the same as last time, I want my money back". Do they report that outlet to the regulator? Govts are not going to have "inspectors" going around to cafes testing machiatos. It's not like testing 316 stainless for tensile strength.

    In the same way you can only check that cheese is safe and not whether its actually good cheese. American cheese on pizzas for instance - its safe to eat but not very nice. Hersheys chocolate - it's safe to eat but not chocolate. So similarly coffee should be just regulated, as it currently is, to not contain pesticides, adulterants etc. To extend that to the Barista and regulate their art and pour is fraught with implementation difficulties, testing methodology and cost.

    It's better to just tell bad cafes that their coffee was poor and you wont be back and to keep coming back to good cafes.

    Mike

    Regulation on may not go as far as issuing fines for bad coffee but rather more towards ensuring folk are certified and competent at using equipment.

    Theres already legislation in the food industry, responsible service and so forth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthusiast View Post
    Really?
    If it works, can you please let me know and we can apply the same model to the food industry. Those cheese injected pizza crusts need to be made illegal!
    the problem is that we live in a service culture, and just like the Americans who invented the term , as long as they politely ask for your order and deliver a product that resembles what you ordered, they have provided good customer service . Quality is irrelevant and purely qualitative ! ( have you seen the quality or American food an coffee? It's crap!!)

    i could name lots of restaurants that the masses rave about and I think are crap, yet people go there regularly and pay hundreds for their meal and leave satisfied .
    Unfortunately, the only option you have is to never return .
    The Food industry is already regulated to a point in Australia, of course more could be done, a qualified cook or chef in every kitchen would be a good start.

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    Who on earth would regulate it? Surely you're not suggesting that some level of government do it? There's a long history of well-intentioned regulation that just buggers things up even more, because the very reasons for the market failure mean that it is very difficult (impossible) for bureaucrats to imagine and specify what the ideal situation should be.

    If the majority of the population can't discern a decent coffee from a bitter, stale, but hot morass of liquid, then how would their elected representatives improve things?

    The best you could hope for is a professional accreditation / cafe accreditation scheme that was credible and trustworthy....but there's so much incentive for people to chisel / free-ride that any such scheme would also struggle.

    In the end, as imperfect as it is, the market yields what the average Joe wants, and in bigger markets (and with a bit of legwork on behalf of the consumer) what the more picky consumer wants.
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    I wasn't actually thinking about $500 fines for serving crap espresso.....but then again.

    My idea was like licensing to use certain equipment or advertise certain services.

    To me there's a huge difference between a mistake & absolutely murdering the process BUT perhaps I'm wrong.

    Some places have folk driving machines with no experience or qualification whatsoever.

    Training of the untrained by the untrained. From Idiot to moron and back again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Who on earth would regulate it? Surely you're not suggesting that some level of government do it? There's a long history of well-intentioned regulation that just buggers things up even more, because the very reasons for the market failure mean that it is very difficult (impossible) for bureaucrats to imagine and specify what the ideal situation should be.

    If the majority of the population can't discern a decent coffee from a bitter, stale, but hot morass of liquid, then how would their elected representatives improve things?

    The best you could hope for is a professional accreditation / cafe accreditation scheme that was credible and trustworthy....but there's so much incentive for people to chisel / free-ride that any such scheme would also struggle.

    In the end, as imperfect as it is, the market yields what the average Joe wants, and in bigger markets (and with a bit of legwork on behalf of the consumer) what the more picky consumer wants.

    Right you are Barry.

    Professional accreditation would be a fantastic step IMO.

    I guess I mainly object to the deception. A flashing red light fitted to the top of an espresso machine for the unaccredited would suffice I suppose.
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    I too often wonder how some cafes/vendors can dish out rubbish when they appear to have quality commercial equipment. I guess in this day and age online reviews & word-of-mouth (such as on this forum) can be helpful in the journey towards finding acceptable coffee.

    I think as we become more & more connected with information sharing that reputation will become more important for coffee vendors in areas of high competition. Does anyone here ever use Beanhunter?
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    I'm offering to be some kind of ombudsman.
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    I'm also aware that Campos are very particular about any cafes using their beans/brand - apparently they insist on the machines that are used at the cafe and personally oversee the training of staff and then have ongoing quality-control. My journey to coffee snobbery started at their original store in Newtown about 15 years ago, and I have to say that since their empire begun to expand where you see their brand in different towns & suburbs that I've usually found the coffee made to be a good drop. Maybe that's another way through "brand reputation" that consumers can have some confidence of getting an acceptable coffee?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeHack View Post
    I'm also aware that Campos are very particular about any cafes using their beans/brand - apparently they insist on the machines that are used at the cafe and personally oversee the training of staff and then have ongoing quality-control. My journey to coffee snobbery started at their original store in Newtown about 15 years ago, and I have to say that since their empire begun to expand where you see their brand in different towns & suburbs that I've usually found the coffee made to be a good drop. Maybe that's another way through "brand reputation" that consumers can have some confidence of getting an acceptable coffee?
    I didn't know that about Campos, thanks for sharing, I've always had good Campos experience.

    I agree brands could really drive a standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shortblackman View Post
    I'm offering to be some kind of ombudsman.

    I willbe your offsider as we as we cruise around in our tax payer funded helicopter sampling coffees and lashing non compliant operators!

    the key imo is training and setting a minimum standard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeHack View Post
    I too often wonder how some cafes/vendors can dish out rubbish when they appear to have quality commercial equipment. I guess in this day and age online reviews & word-of-mouth (such as on this forum) can be helpful in the journey towards finding acceptable coffee.

    I think as we become more & more connected with information sharing that reputation will become more important for coffee vendors in areas of high competition. Does anyone here ever use Beanhunter?
    Never heard of bean hunter but will check it out. It also amuses me when businesses spend a small fortune on equipment but have MRI in regards to its operation. Madness, may as well save you're money and serve from a Nespresso or $20 kettle and blend43.

    i agree about voting with ones feet but imo at least 5/10 coffees are utter crap, 3/10 mediocre, 1 barely passable &1 good one in every 10 I've sampled In recent years.

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    Sounds good, but the only problem is we're probably not willing to pay $10 per cup. The accreditation, licensing, officer(needs his salary too), education, qualification/certification certainly cost money and it has to come from somewhere.
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    The trouble is, everyone has different taste. An expert barista who makes an excellent coffee made to an "industry" standard has no hope of pleasing 100% of his customers. The coffee that I reject could be someone else's elixir and vice versa.

    I see what you are saying though Smee. If the right to a refund for a bad drink existed, things could be very much different for travellers. BYO might be the only way to guarantee satisfaction.

    Yes CoffeeHack, have found beanhunter to be an excellent guide with "word of mouth" reviews.
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    What doesn't help is the unwillingness of most people to actually complain. We sip at what we know is fundamentally crap coffee and rarely say a word knowing there are a hundred outlets nearby and next time you'll try another one.

    I can cope with a difference in taste - that's part of the fun. But when it's fundamental misunderstanding of the process and operation that becomes disappointing. An accreditation system wouldn't fully solve the problem but it would give consumers guidance and a feedback channel would offer a means to hold the premises to account.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smee View Post
    Never heard of bean hunter but will check it out. It also amuses me when businesses spend a small fortune on equipment but have MRI in regards to its operation. .
    Magnetic Resonance Imaging?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samuellaw178 View Post
    Sounds good, but the only problem is we're probably not willing to pay $10 per cup. The accreditation, licensing, officer(needs his salary too), education, qualification/certification certainly cost money and it has to come from somewhere.
    Perhaps most of the associated cost could be worn by both the licensing fees & fines issued to non compliant operators.

    I don't imagine that cost of coffee would increase by 250% but I'd gladly pay more verses the money I've already wasted in purchasing crapola espresso.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    What doesn't help is the unwillingness of most people to actually complain. We sip at what we know is fundamentally crap coffee and rarely say a word knowing there are a hundred outlets nearby and next time you'll try another one.

    I can cope with a difference in taste - that's part of the fun. But when it's fundamental misunderstanding of the process and operation that becomes disappointing. An accreditation system wouldn't fully solve the problem but it would give consumers guidance and a feedback channel would offer a means to hold the premises to account.

    Absolutely ! Well Said, thanks to all for their thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Magnetic Resonance Imaging?
    Sorry, that damn auto correct and I didn't notice the changes.

    I wrote NFI. I trust you know what that is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smee View Post
    I didn't know that about Campos, thanks for sharing, I've always had good Campos experience.

    I agree brands could really drive a standard.
    I didn't know either until reading this recent article about their expansion into the US: Campos coffee makes the leap to snowfields of US market

    It's really good to see a company who genuinely appear to care about the product that is served to their customers, whilst also putting a lot of thought into the various sources of their beans.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smee View Post

    Would a bit of regulation improve the overall situation, help those within the industry that deserve to thrive, thrive?
    Certainly not in my opinion Smee, seems some people are struck action-less unless there is a set of rules to guide them

    Australia is rapidly becoming a nanny state, cant move without being regulated by some bylaw.
    Australia nanny state: Have we become a nation of idiots?
    "You can ride a bike without a helmet in Europe, and you are trusted not to fall off (similarly, drivers are trusted not to run into you). You can wander freely onto public transport, and you are trusted to buy a ticket. You can drink a beer in the park, or on the pavement outside a bar, and you're trusted not to act like a drunken fool.

    You can't do those things in Australia because we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules, and we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules because there are some people out there who really need to be nannied. We don't all need it. But we have to put up with it because others do."


    I'm sure the cafe industry is well covered by health regulations, as far as defining by law how a cup of coffee should be made, way over the top as far as I'm concerned

    Why not self regulate, simple, don't like the coffee? don't return, easy, poor operators don't last long, the word spreads quickly.

    "Professional accreditation would be a fantastic step IMO." I always smile at this, (professional barista) bit like a professional sandwich maker or a professional lollipop person.

    To underscore the point, here's a professional Lollipop man who has been affected by the nanny state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post

    Ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Certainly not in my opinion Smee, seems some people are struck action-less unless there is a set of rules to guide them

    Australia is rapidly becoming a nanny state, cant move without being regulated by some bylaw.
    Australia nanny state: Have we become a nation of idiots?
    "You can ride a bike without a helmet in Europe, and you are trusted not to fall off (similarly, drivers are trusted not to run into you). You can wander freely onto public transport, and you are trusted to buy a ticket. You can drink a beer in the park, or on the pavement outside a bar, and you're trusted not to act like a drunken fool.

    You can't do those things in Australia because we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules, and we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules because there are some people out there who really need to be nannied. We don't all need it. But we have to put up with it because others do."


    I'm sure the cafe industry is well covered by health regulations, as far as defining by law how a cup of coffee should be made, way over the top as far as I'm concerned

    Why not self regulate, simple, don't like the coffee? don't return, easy, poor operators don't last long, the word spreads quickly.

    "Professional accreditation would be a fantastic step IMO." I always smile at this, (professional barista) bit like a professional sandwich maker or a professional lollipop person.

    To underscore the point, here's a professional Lollipop man who has been affected by the nanny state.
    I agree 100% Yelta!!!

    Here's a great example.........Everyones opinion of what makes a good pizza is different.
    I can't eat that shredded meat that we aren't used to finding on pizza here in Australia.
    I had some family friends from Italy ask me, after seeing that shredded processed meat on a pizza', 'you have such good quality meat in Australia, why do you put dog food on your your pizzas?" They thought it was meat from a can of Pal dog food!!!!
    I had to laugh, but my point is that the masses love crap, and as long as its at a market price, it's ok for them, and someone makes a living. Have a look at the people lining up to buy 7eleven coffee for $1. I can't drink it, I can't deal with the heartburn and sour rancidity.
    Likewise, I can't drink 3rd wave coffe. I find it too acidic and prefer 'comfort ' coffee roast profiles, which are dark, rich and chocolatey. So who's right?

    vote with your feet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smee View Post
    Perhaps most of the associated cost could be worn by both the licensing fees & fines issued to non compliant operators.

    I don't imagine that cost of coffee would increase by 250% but I'd gladly pay more verses the money I've already wasted in purchasing crapola espresso.
    Smee,
    I wish I could be as optimistic as you are when it comes to minimal cost increases when the government takes a role within any process. I have seen the cost increases associated with importing products in the health profession when the Australian government decided it needed to ensure the safety of the products being imported. While I have no issues about this, if the government actually did its own testing and checked the safety of the products, I take offence when the so called licensing fee is simply taken and the so called testing is simply acceptance of European certification/standards. And the price rises are merely rubber stamping European certification. Imagin the price rises associated when the government actually has to employ staff to police quality standards......let alone dictate the definition of quality.

    As for the cost of fines defraying the cost of licensing, have you ever seen any government revenue actually remain in the area where the revenue was raised. It wouldn't be long before the fine revenue is absorbed into general revenue, and the licensing system simply change into a revenue raising exercise for the government.

    I agree with most of the other individuals who have posted so far. Competition is heavy in the fight for our coffee dollar. Let word of mouth dictate who succeeds and who doesn't. In the meantime, we live in the Information Age. Use the power of social media and community feedback to help you sort out the places worthy of a coffeesnob's attention and ignore the chaff out there.
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    I guess that (in addition to what I said in post #6) is that....there's no safety / health issue here (those that do exist are covered under present food regulations). I actually have no problem with some oft-criticised regulations like the requirement to wear bike helmets (I've seen a cyclist land on their head after being hit by a car and eventually come out with no more than whiplash)....it's not just about the cyclist, it's about anyone else involved in a collision, all the relatives involved and the cost of treatment.

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    Another point we have not raised in this discussion is the question of whom there regulation applied to? In the original post, Smee has put the onus of regulation and control on the business. Granted, the entity which is ultimately responsible for the end product is the business. However, at the end of the day, taste preferences aside, it is the 'barista' who is making the coffee. So, if we were to look at regulation, wouldn't it be barista's responsibility to get any relevant licensing, and abide by any rules and regulations created? After all, when we see a doctor, dentist, vet, nurse, physiotherapist, etc, the burden getting a license and complying with the rules and regulations of the licensing falls upon the individual. The business is responsible for ensuring the individuals employed are licensed, but the burden of licensing falls upon the individual.

    And, finally, remember, a licensing system is not a sign of quality. I know a hell of a lot of licensed drivers out there who really are not that good or safe a driver! A license is merely a piece of paper that says the individual the basic requirement to perform a task. There is no marker of quality in a licensing system, just a sign that the individual has passed the basic requirements to fulfil a task. After that, there distinction between a good and bad 'barista' then relies upon taste, skill, experience, personal pride, etc.

    Rather than a basic licensing or 'governmental' regulation system, a better way to proceed would be for cafes who wish to distinguish themselves from merely places that serve coffee, band together and form some form of professional group or association which sets its own standards. Then, they can promote and control what their own image and idea of quality and use that as an association front to separate themselves from the others.
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  29. #29
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    Seriously people, it ain't gonna happen.

    "After all, when we see a doctor, dentist, vet, nurse, physiotherapist, etc," this is all getting a bit silly, (doctor, dentist, vet, nurse, physiotherapist, barista) can ya spot the odd one out.

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    Those are the professions I understand. Could have said plumber, electrician...... don't fully understand their licensing so didn't use them as examples. But assume they would be similar

    I agree not likely to happen, but wanted to extend the thinking....

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    I utterly disagree with the basic premise that regulating / licensing would achieve anything worthwhile in the coffee industry.

    Reminds me of "Fair Trade" or "certified organic". Great ideas whose execution can be flawed to the point of irrelevance. One couple I know locally had a great great grandfather who came to Oz in the 1880's from Italy. Being a traditional farmer, he bought 200 or so acres in an area just south of Perth. Over the next ten years he cleared about 30 acres in the centre for his beloved Valencia oranges. Why the centre? So any neighbours spraying stuff on their crops would not affect his oranges. The farm has never purchased any herbicide, pesticide (or any other "cide") and was always fertilised with local blood & bone, chicken and/or sheep manure and other items from nearby farmers. The great*2 grandfather also used what is now called "companion planting" to minimise citrus diseases (e.g. olives and real Italian tomatoes to die for). It still took over 10 years starting in the mid 1980's and a bucketload of cash to get the organic certification due to a lot of chairwarming bureaucrats who were convinced that organic methods started in the US in the 1970's.

    Also, what kind of certification? In my case I did a two week intensive in 1979 "on the job" effort with Perth's top roaster / cafe at the time. It was followed by a week of slave labour to make up for his lost time. I have no certificate for that - it was my personal initiative that got the training arranged. I had already put in 4+ years (and occasional efforts over the next 4 years) as a "part time barista in fact" at the local uni (all La Cimbali gear, it paid for a lot of my studies) as a completely untrained (aka self taught) person. The fact that I had a lot of regulars who interrogated me as to my timetable each semester meant I must have been doing something right. I left the coffee industry years ago, having never worked full time in it. These days I still set up cafes for some friends, and also train the odd friend's barista "one on one". The last lady I trained took out second place in "Perth Now coffee shops" two years running, so there must be a good level of transferred competence there. She doesn't have a certificate either. Attitude is far more important than qualifications.

    Some of the worst coffees I encounter uptown (yep, can be pretty ugly) were from guys who had a "barista certificate" proudly hanging on the wall from a Perth professional coffee training school (professional in their own minds at least). Scalding the milk was only the final bungle of a complete train wreck right in front of my eyes.

    Like a few other posters, "voting with your feet" combined with the internet's role in increasing the knowledge of good coffee skills means the improvement over the last ten years is encouraging. Hopefully it will continue to improve.

    Those who talk about chains delivering quality - it does not always follow. Ever heard of Starbucks, Peabody (US) or (alas) Dome (whose early excellent Freo coffee is now a dimming memory).

    It is worth repeating one other point - who provides the standard for a good coffee? My heavily smoking friend who needs a dark roasted 22g VST triple shot before he can taste it? The other one who loves properly aged (ie not green and underdone) delicate light roasts? Those who cannot stand black coffee? Lattes? Those who dump half an ocean of sugar in every cup (one "uni regular" added NINE teaspoons in front of me every single day I worked there for four years)? The ones who think a quinine content of 80%+ is needed to qualify as a coffee? Those who can drink Indian Monsoon without noticing the mouldy jute aftertaste?

    Enjoy your cuppa, or introduce it to a sink. All else is irrelevant.

    TampIt
    Smee and LFM60 like this.

  32. #32
    Apprentice Coffee snob
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    Feb 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Certainly not in my opinion Smee, seems some people are struck action-less unless there is a set of rules to guide them

    Australia is rapidly becoming a nanny state, cant move without being regulated by some bylaw.
    Australia nanny state: Have we become a nation of idiots?
    "You can ride a bike without a helmet in Europe, and you are trusted not to fall off (similarly, drivers are trusted not to run into you). You can wander freely onto public transport, and you are trusted to buy a ticket. You can drink a beer in the park, or on the pavement outside a bar, and you're trusted not to act like a drunken fool.

    You can't do those things in Australia because we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules, and we live in a nanny state with a lot of rules because there are some people out there who really need to be nannied. We don't all need it. But we have to put up with it because others do."


    I'm sure the cafe industry is well covered by health regulations, as far as defining by law how a cup of coffee should be made, way over the top as far as I'm concerned

    Why not self regulate, simple, don't like the coffee? don't return, easy, poor operators don't last long, the word spreads quickly.

    "Professional accreditation would be a fantastic step IMO." I always smile at this, (professional barista) bit like a professional sandwich maker or a professional lollipop person.

    To underscore the point, here's a professional Lollipop man who has been affected by the nanny state.
    Funny Yelta, I agree with everything you said, yet out of frustration I'm left contemplating a better way.

    I guess what Chris was pointing out in post 17, is what most annoys me. It's not the slight variances in the process of 'making a coffee' that bothers me but rather those instances where the so called Barista gets it all Fundamentally wrong. It's the coffee master that serves it scolding hot, the cafe owner that cleans & services their gear once a fortnight whether it needs it or not, the cafe owner that bulk buys months of beans at a time or bulk grinds in 'quiet times' to save time & so forth that frustrates me.

    These day, I'm uber selective when it comes to purchasing when out and about & especially when travelling away from my 'hood'.

    After reading those Campos articles, I'm going to target more of their cafes when away from home.
    CoffeeHack likes this.

  33. #33
    Apprentice Coffee snob
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Queensland
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Certainly some interesting thoughts there, thanks for sharing them.

    I think lupus's idea of a group or association where cafes join, train and promote themselves couldn't hurt and might just help educate those out there that think just because they bought machine x & bean y that they're all that. It's a pity that there's not more good places than there are bad ones.

    Such is life I guess.



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