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Thread: Newbie Question

  1. #1
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    Newbie Question

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    We have a Rocket Giotto and a Madcap M4D grinder.

    My wife always drinks a flat white in a large mug while I drink a short black.
    For each coffee, I use a "two cup" handle with a "two cup" filter basket.
    I adjust the grind for 25-30 seconds for approximately 30ml (don't have a measuring cup yet).
    The 30ml is both outlets flowing into the one cup.

    My question is should I be drawing 30ml in 25 seconds from the double filter basket, or should I be drawing 60ml in 25 seconds?

    With my current method, everything appears fine - rat tails after about 8 sec, thin dark tails, nice dark crema.
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Using the double basket 60ml in 30 seconds is the standard starting point. Adjust the time and quantity from there according to your personal tastes.


    Java "Let the tongue decide" phile
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    Using the double basket 60ml in 30 seconds is the standard starting point. Adjust the time and quantity from there according to your personal tastes.


    Java "Let the tongue decide" phile
    Thanks for that.
    I've been limiting my extracts to 30ml in 25 seconds for several years now.
    However the logical part in my slow working brain finally came up with the stunning revelation that I may have been getting it wrong all this time - especially after seeing a demonstration video of a 30 second extract going into two 30ml shots.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    Hi Nordo. Welcome to coffee snobs.

    All the best with your coffee adventures.

    Feel free to share any pics of your setup/Giotto.

    Worth asking more questions as you go along. Most here seem willing to help.

    Have you tried some of the roasted beans from Andy here at CS ? http://beanbay.coffeesnobs.com.au
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  5. #5
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    So the answer to the original question leads on to another question.
    Are we all in agreement as to what a "double basket is"?

    Some folk prefer 18g and some use a larger size (21g?) or would that be called a triple?

  6. #6
    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    I personally use an 18g VST dosed to 20g
    found this discussion on basket sizes:--
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-eq...hind-them.html
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  7. #7
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    The official World Barista Chamionships basket is a 20g VST. So if you wish to enter you need to perfect your extractions around this basket. Otherwise basket sizes come down to personal preference or the type of extraction you are trying to prepare.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordL View Post
    So the answer to the original question leads on to another question.
    Are we all in agreement as to what a "double basket is"?

    Some folk prefer 18g and some use a larger size (21g?) or would that be called a triple?
    Traditionally we tend to think of a 7 gram basket as a single, 14 gram double and 21 gram as triple, of course we also have 18 gram to consider, it's all a bit arbitrary really, however if you work with these figures in mind will get you into the ball park.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
    We have a Rocket Giotto and a Madcap M4D grinder.

    My wife always drinks a flat white in a large mug while I drink a short black.
    For each coffee, I use a "two cup" handle with a "two cup" filter basket.
    I adjust the grind for 25-30 seconds for approximately 30ml (don't have a measuring cup yet).
    The 30ml is both outlets flowing into the one cup.

    My question is should I be drawing 30ml in 25 seconds from the double filter basket, or should I be drawing 60ml in 25 seconds?

    With my current method, everything appears fine - rat tails after about 8 sec, thin dark tails, nice dark crema.
    Morning Nordo, welcome to Coffee Snobs, sounds like your doing well, the equipment you have is certainly capable of good results.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
    The 30ml is both outlets flowing into the one cup.

    My question is should I be drawing 30ml in 25 seconds from the double filter basket, or should I be drawing 60ml in 25 seconds?

    With my current method, everything appears fine - rat tails after about 8 sec, thin dark tails, nice dark crema.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
    Thanks for that.
    I've been limiting my extracts to 30ml in 25 seconds for several years now.
    However the logical part in my slow working brain finally came up with the stunning revelation that I may have been getting it wrong all this time - especially after seeing a demonstration video of a 30 second extract going into two 30ml shots.
    Not if your taste buds are telling you you're right Nordo!

    Really, all this guff about basket sizes and what is right or wrong is just that....guff.

    Sure, we need to start somewhere with dosing but always bear in mind that the 'traditional' sizes also relate to 'traditional' Italian espresso often with a fair whack of Robusta coffee in the blends and also most probably a dark or almost carbonised roast. The exponential growth of the coffee market both commercial and domestic has set us free from the restrictions and bondage of traditions and catapulted our experience into the more personal frontier of individual preference. And this is where you should place yourself. Do what is right for you.

    Most people I know with either commercial or domestic machines relegate the single portafilter to blind basket/backflush duties and the single filter basket to the back of the drawer for the day the machine is resold.

    I dose a 24 gm 30 ml single shot, (traditionally called a ristretto) which for me is just that..... a single shot.

  11. #11
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    Thanks everyone for all the advice and the links.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Morning Nordo, welcome to Coffee Snobs, sounds like your doing well, the equipment you have is certainly capable of good results.
    My wife did a lot of research, especially on CS, regarding equipment.

    Another question guys :-
    How can I tell what size basket I have?
    The internal dia is 60mm (which would be for all baskets); the depth is 25mm, with only a slight taper in the lower half of the sides.
    We have another basket (which we don't use) which has an exaggerated taper and a small dia filter in the base.
    Both came standard with the Giotto.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Not if your taste buds are telling you you're right Nordo!

    Really, all this guff about basket sizes and what is right or wrong is just that....guff.

    Sure, we need to start somewhere with dosing but always bear in mind that the 'traditional' sizes also relate to 'traditional' Italian espresso often with a fair whack of Robusta coffee in the blends and also most probably a dark or almost carbonised roast. The exponential growth of the coffee market both commercial and domestic has set us free from the restrictions and bondage of traditions and catapulted our experience into the more personal frontier of individual preference. And this is where you should place yourself. Do what is right for you.

    Most people I know with either commercial or domestic machines relegate the single portafilter to blind basket/backflush duties and the single filter basket to the back of the drawer for the day the machine is resold.

    I dose a 24 gm 30 ml single shot, (traditionally called a ristretto) which for me is just that..... a single shot.
    When we first bought our equipment, we used to buy our beans freshly roasted from Costa Noosa Espresso.
    One day they were closed, and my wife in desperation, bought a packet of beans from the local Woolies.
    With our uncultured tastes, we couldn't tell a lot of difference from the quality beans, so we continued to buy from Woolies, trying various retail brands.

    However, in recent times, I have learnt to correctly adjust the grind on my M4D.
    We are also slowly developing a cultured coffee taste.
    So I think it is time we went back to Costa Noosa Espresso (or CS's own range), to see how our tastes have developed.

    Regarding the single portafilter/basket, you're right. We used it blind for cleaning and back-flushing.

  13. #13
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    Sorry, I'm just gonna jump in without reading so if I'm doubling up on someones post then let me know...

    Best is to find the brew ratio/recipe that YOU like, and make sure you weight-in and weight-out.

    For example:

    If I had a 20g basket (dosed exactly for conversation sake) then I'd yield ~50g of liquid, which roughly translates to ~25ml on each side if using double spout (~50mls in total)
    My extraction would be 30 seconds or a couple seconds short of that.
    ... what's that roughly? ( my math is bad) 1:2.5 Brew ratio?
    Make sure you weight it out because crema doesn't count.
    (a few cafes with stronger blends tend to run that ratio)

    If that tastes good to you then stick with it.
    Also, don't forget that every different blend/single of coffee will need some adjustments.

    But nothing all beat your taste buds, so taste, taste and taste until you find what's right for you.

    PS. Personally, I run 22g in a 20g basket to yield 44mls/g not split. I find the taste is pretty much spot on as a one serve latte in an 8oz cup. But everyone's different so don't let me tell you how to live your life :P
    Last edited by GunBarista; 6th February 2017 at 02:16 PM.

  14. #14
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    My preference is the same as Chokki's...

    Ristretto made using 24g home roasted for 30-35ml in the cup.
    Just beautiful.
    For milk drinks (piccolo laté), will stretch this out to 45-50ml (coarser grind)...

    Mal.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunBarista View Post
    Sorry, I'm just gonna jump in without reading so if I'm doubling up on someones post then let me know...

    Best is to find the brew ratio/recipe that YOU like, and make sure you weight-in and weight-out.

    For example:

    If I had a 20g basket (dosed exactly for conversation sake) then I'd yield ~50g of liquid, which roughly translates to ~25ml on each side if using double spout (~50mls in total)
    My extraction would be 30 seconds or a couple seconds short of that.
    ... what's that roughly? ( my math is bad) 1:2.5 Brew ratio?
    Make sure you weight it out because crema doesn't count.
    (a few cafes with stronger blends tend to run that ratio)

    If that tastes good to you then stick with it.
    Also, don't forget that every different blend/single of coffee will need some adjustments.

    But nothing all beat your taste buds, so taste, taste and taste until you find what's right for you.

    PS. Personally, I run 22g in a 20g basket to yield 44mls/g not split. I find the taste is pretty much spot on as a one serve latte in an 8oz cup. But everyone's different so don't let me tell you how to live your life :P

    Yep good plan. With my current blend for instance I find that 50g/2.5 ratio is just a little bitter and leaves a tickle at the back of the throat so I pull it in a bit.

    The key key for the newbie is not to worry about time first up. Get the ratio that suits your taste without changing grind or dose. Just stop the pump at different times to see the effect. When you settle on an output that suits then look at the time. Is it's 18secs say fine up the grind a click and see what that does. But keep the dose and output the same. You'll get a reasonably similar balance of acidity and bitter which is your first impressions call it but the body will change slightly, probably deeper and more rounded. Equally if it's 40 sec try going coarser and you'll probably get a less dense outcome

    Often the the mistake is made to change everything to get to 25 odd secs and go round in circles. Time is your friend here, don't worry about it to much.

    The good thing about starting at 50g/2.5 ratios is most of the time if you don't like it it's because it's bitter. There's only one way to go and that down with the ratio until you hit sour and a fizzy tongue. Good way to learn what you are tasting and make sure you taste without milk. A good black shot will make a fairly good white coffee. When you happy there you can start brewing for a bit more acidity to offset the sweetness of the milk or bit more bitter to bring out chocolate tones and so on, and on, and on.
    Nordo, LFM60 and GunBarista like this.

  16. #16
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    Thanks Chris, that's a great summary for a newbie like me.
    My problem at the moment is that we are throwing another variable into the mix by buying different beans each time from the supermarket.

    As I said earlier, I think we should now be starting to buy beans from a reputable roaster/seller, selecting a taste description that sounds nice to us.
    Then using that as a base, work on the grind, dose, and timing until we feel we have reached the best taste.
    I would have to be the one to do that, as my wife prefers a flat white.
    Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice (and not flaming me for buying from the supermarket).
    matth3wh and LFM60 like this.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordo View Post
    Thanks Chris, that's a great summary for a newbie like me.
    My problem at the moment is that we are throwing another variable into the mix by buying different beans each time from the supermarket.

    As I said earlier, I think we should now be starting to buy beans from a reputable roaster/seller, selecting a taste description that sounds nice to us.
    Then using that as a base, work on the grind, dose, and timing until we feel we have reached the best taste.
    I would have to be the one to do that, as my wife prefers a flat white.
    Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice (and not flaming me for buying from the supermarket).
    You will struggle will supermarket beans - not impossible but not easy. Find a high turnover source like a roaster or even a good coffee shop and only buy the same blend from there for a month or so. Once less variable! When your comfortable branch out. Have fun!
    GunBarista likes this.

  18. #18
    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    As there's probably a few hundred roasters in AUS these days it'd be a shame to preference old supermarket beans over the convenience of fresh roasted / home delivered beans
    Dimal likes this.

  19. #19
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    You will struggle will supermarket beans - not impossible but not easy. Find a high turnover source like a roaster or even a good coffee shop and only buy the same blend from there for a month or so. Once less variable! When your comfortable branch out. Have fun!
    We have a good coffee shop (Zabe, Tewantin) in our area, as well as an experienced roaster (Costa Noosa). We have tried both in the early days, but honestly, it was probably a waste of good coffee, as I had no idea how to adjust the grind, etc.

    This is why I think it's time to test myself with a good roast(s).

    I have recently realised that good coffee, and coffee appreciation, is very much like good wine and wine appreciation.



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