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Thread: Unpopular opinion: cheap beans, over good beans

  1. #451
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    used the single basket to about 2mm from the top once tamped, pour was about 15 seconds and pressure needle barely moved, end volume was probably about 40-50ml. Will try again and adjust grinder to finest and see if that makes a difference, and tamp a little more firmly. I assume puck is what causes pressure increase? Beans i'm hoping are ok, I opened them and ground a couple of scoops this morning and they were roasted 21st Nov (The Pablo & Rustys Porter I got).
    One way of getting a successful extraction from a Single Basket. Shows correct dosing/tamping.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH3weB33pIg

    CoffeeSnobs link for a Single Basket discussion - https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...paralysis.html
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 1 Week Ago at 10:30 AM. Reason: CS link added
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  2. #452
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    Thanks Cafelotta. That was the basket shape I was using, but I didn't tamp as hard, and filled it waaay past the point where the basket widens up, probably wasting a good amount of the coffee. Until I obtain a smaller tamp, I might as well use the double basket and go for a longer pour! Also learned what the rubber bit on the bottom of the basket handle is for which is useful too!
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  3. #453
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    I might as well use the double basket and go for a longer pour!
    Whether you use a Single or Double Basket, the time of the pour should be the same, give or take, ie ~30 seconds...

    Mal.
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  4. #454
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    firstly, i recommend buying a set of 0.1g scales off ebay for $16 shipped. if you weigh your dose in, and your yield out, you are at a solid foundation which immediately eliminates a host of variables that only confuse the beginner, including:

    1. dose inconsistency messing with the flow rate through the puck, leaving you questioning your grind size;
    2. yield inconsistency messing with your ability to evaluate your cup - is it bitter because the grind was too fine, or too much water went through the puck into the cup, or because the puck preparation was bad;
    3. crema taking variable amounts of volume depending on the roast date, thus messing with the overall brew ratio (this is why everyone in the industry measures yield by scale, not volume);
    4. looking for blonding - the most iffy and supernatural way of knowing to stop the shot;
    5. troubleshooting - if you have issues, you can give us your baseline recipe (e.g. 18g in 36g out in 30s) and your observations, and that gives us so much more scope with which to help you.

    and watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7-yOUMDM

    a beginner following the above will ensure the most reward and consistency for the least amount of coffee beans and time spent. some can do it by feel, and that is possible, but they've already done their coffee wasting in their journey.
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  5. #455
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    SO, using the double basket today with fresh grind on finest (just coarser than flour, a little bit of grit to the rol between finger but not powder). Still ran out in about 8 second with no crema at all.

    Fresh beans (opened yesterday sealed roasted 21st Nov.
    Grind at finest. Tamped well (puck was not sludgy after.

    EM7000 pressure gauge barely rose at all, no idea why.
    Purged group head before and gave 2 minutes to heat up etc. All lights on.

    Not got scales or a better grinder as yet (previous owner was able to obtain a crema using this grinder on its finest).Will have to pick some up.

    Thoughts?

    What makes water run out too quickly and no pressure? too coarse grind? not tamped hard enough? machine issue?

  6. #456
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    What makes water run out too quickly and no pressure? too coarse grind? not tamped hard enough? machine issue?
    tamping pressure isn't really an issue, as long as it's level and you've pressed out all the air between the grounds.

    shots gushing through show that the water is getting through the coffee too quickly - to slow the flow, you can either fine up the grind or add more coffee. now we know that you have freshly-roasted coffee - we can eliminate that as an issue, as older coffees will gush due to the lack of CO2.

    so my guess is your grinder isn't grinding fine enough. what are you using?
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  7. #457
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    sounds like your still grinding too coarse.

    What type of grinder are you using?

  8. #458
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    breville bcg450. Previous owner shaved of a bit of the plastic to make it as fine as it would go and said he got good results using fresh coffee with it, adjusted it as far round as it will go and it feels fine to the touch (no expert, obviously!). It's not as good as alot of other grinders but it is the grinder I have at the moment.

  9. #459
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    alright. so the issue is that your grinder cannot grind fine enough for your given dose. so the only solution in your case is to increase your dose in order to slow the water flow through the puck, giving you the pressure and contact time necessary for a good extraction. this is where the use of a scale will be extremely valuable, as you can start systematically increasing your dose and keeping it that way once you find a dose that works. hopefully you'll be able to get a good shot before you run out of basket space. if you can't, then unfortunately you'll have to buy a better grinder that can grind finer. the breville bcg820 is a good starting point and not outrageously expensive.
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  10. #460
    OCD
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    Pulling a shot with a blind filter basket should tell you if you've got machine issues. Should choke.

    Ps no blind filter basket - just plug up the hole with whatever.
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  11. #461
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    Pulling shots with a completely blind basket can and will trip the over temp cutout on the pump. 870s don't have an OPV.

    The biggest issue with 870s is that usually from the factory they cannot grind fine enough for proper espresso. Once the grinder is recalibrated they do pretty well

  12. #462
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    Until I obtain a smaller tamp, I might as well use the double basket and go for a longer pour!
    One of the cheapest 41mm tampers can be found if you Google search "La Marzocco Tamper 41 Blu Star Coffee". VAT gets removed at checkout for purchases outside of Eu.

  13. #463
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    Progress report.

    Tried again this AM.
    1. Ground beans fresh (3 scoops, as scientific as I get until scales arrive!). Dialed it as fine as it will go round, feels fine but not floury to the fingers. (think this is still too coarse)
    2. Machine pressure tested using the cleaning plug on manual, took about 10-12 seconds to increase in pressure then held pressure just below green zone on dial, turned off, emptied etc (pre warm of double basket) so it's not the machine not achieving pressure/pump.
    3. Filed double basket and tamped down fairly hard this time.
    4. Pour took only about 15 seconds (better but still not enough. Drink had the barest hint of crema but gauge didn't rise about a little twitch, so grounds are not providing enough resistance to the water still.
    5. my milk frothing skills leave a lot to be desired too!
    6. Saving grace is it tastes ok! Almost mocha like as a bean, these porter beans have ruined shop bought coffee for me! When i get the pour /grind right it'l be awesome!

  14. #464
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    Dialed it as fine as it will go round, feels fine but not floury to the fingers. (think this is still too coarse)
    Have you seen this thread?

    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-e...a-express.html

    See post #9 in that thread.

  15. #465
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    Thanks CafeLotta. I'm using a bcg450, do similar rules apply to the bes870?

  16. #466
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    Thanks CafeLotta. I'm using a bcg450, do similar rules apply to the bes870?
    Somehow misread by skipping between posts and thought you had the BES870! Sorry about that.

    Found these CS links for the BCG450 -

    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/...grinder-2.html

    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/attachmen...iner_Guide.pdf.
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  17. #467
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    The person I bought it from had already done the mod, it turns about an inch and a half past the fine setting. Wondering if I need a pestle and mortar, and a heavier tamp! Probably just a better grinder and a lot of practise!

  18. #468
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    Wondering if I need a pestle and mortar, and a heavier tamp! Probably just a better grinder and a lot of practise!
    Not sure which State you're in? Something like this used Compak K3 Push would improve things greatly -

    https://coffeesnobs.com.au/coffee-ha...-k3-touch.html

    Nothing fancy, just great value for money and very decent grind quality.
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  19. #469
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    Nice machine, but I'm nsw, and significantly out of price range!

  20. #470
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    Is the breville bcg800 a significant step up/better grinder than the bcg450? Does it also require fettling to the get a decent grind
    Last edited by Seraphim2017; 4 Days Ago at 04:16 PM.

  21. #471
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    The BCG820 (current model) will definately be able to grind finer enough for you. It is a step up. You should be able to find one on sale over the next month for under $200. Although that K3 or the M2M V2 currently for sale will both be a step up again.

  22. #472
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    Thanks. Is the main thing between the two the need to shim the 800 where the 820 is fine enough?(someone at work is selling theirs so would be a cheap upgrade!) Is it more important to get a great grinder or a great espresso.machine first?

  23. #473
    Senior Member noidle22's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim2017 View Post
    Thanks. Is the main thing between the two the need to shim the 800 where the 820 is fine enough?(someone at work is selling theirs so would be a cheap upgrade!) Is it more important to get a great grinder or a great espresso.machine first?
    Always prioritise a grinder. With a bad grinder, you can have the best machine in the world and chase your tail constantly trying to sort out a decent shot.

    The BCG820 comes with a user adjustable upper burr as do the grinders integrated in Breville machines. There is no longer any need for shimming as you can adjust the burr as needed.
    Other changes were an improved impeller for sweeping the ground coffee out and a more user friendly LCD display.
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