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Thread: One-shot Wonders.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    One-shot Wonders.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    There's a local cafe that produces a reasonable product but will sometimes put one shot in a Long-black.
    Sometimes they will ask but sometimes they just do a single shot.
    (I always ask for their small/standard cup as opposed to a mug)

    I would have thought that a double shot was normal for a Long-black regardless of what sort of cup - and that anyone training Baristas would be training them to do a double shot.
    That was the way I was trained.

    I have a friend who likes a bucket of milk-based coffee and he asks for an extra shot - by which he means he wants three shots in his bucket.

    What is the experience of others?

  2. #2
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    I think double shot is pretty much a standard for cafe's these days. Most punters would probably drink a single and think it was too weak or the coffee wasn't made properly.

    Interesting that your local would specifically do a long black as a single and maybe nothing else unless asked for?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Yeah, it 'throws' me a bit.
    When I had my first coffee from this particular cafe I thought it was terrible - really like dishwater - and it was only in retrospect that I realised that they must have put only one shot in it.
    A couple of weeks later, I went back and asked for a "double-shot" Long-black and it was just fine.

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    I think the exception would have to be an espresso? I don't think I've ever been given a double shot when I just ask for an espresso, unless I specifically say double.

  5. #5
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    I'd be surprised if thats standard for most cafe's. Most cafe's I've been to they have their grinders dialed in for doubles and maybe a spare for decaf.
    You would need to fine up the grind a little to go from a 'regular' double to a single.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    I'd be surprised if thats standard for most cafe's. Most cafe's I've been to they have their grinders dialed in for doubles and maybe a spare for decaf.
    You would need to fine up the grind a little to go from a 'regular' double to a single.
    I'm fairly certain they use the double but let one go into the drip tray. I'm pretty sure they charge more for a double too (!) Maybe it's just a Sydney thing but all the places I go regularly definitely give me a single volume shot

  7. #7
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    Thats weird! I mean they are wasting the coffee anyway - might as well give it to the customer. Unless they normally pour a double into two glasses and on the odd ocasion they only have one on the go just let one go to the drain.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    Places i have looked at are a single in a small and a double in a med or large.
    I have ordered a espresso and they have given me the single and the spare single as well- said is was giong in the drip tray anyway.
    I just order a double now, or the extra shot so to get the double and to save it getting wasted.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    The only coffee I order as a single shot is a Piccolo Latte, because it is usually my second or third coffee and I am starting to bounce off the ceiling.
    The other day the same place I am talking about served me a Piccolo that had to be a double shot.
    They have probably tagged me as that old guy who orders the double-shot Long-black and so obviously wants two shots in everything.
    I give up.

  10. #10
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Hehe yeah it makes sense to do a double in a long black, and most places I know do that.

    Although if a standard latte, flat white etc is only one shot, I guess it may also make sense for some cafes to do a single shot into a long black.. although the long black with one shot is heavily diluted with the water, whereas the others at least have milk..

    Interesting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    ... if a standard latte, flat white etc is only one shot, ...
    A flat white should be a double shot standard, otherwise it is just a latte in a different cup.

    Can't abide places that serve a single shot flat white.

  12. #12
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeBrew View Post
    A flat white should be a double shot standard, otherwise it is just a latte in a different cup.

    Can't abide places that serve a single shot flat white.
    depends which place you're getting it from. the trendier places tend to do their flatties in 5oz cups, as opposed to 6.5ish for their lattes.

  13. #13
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeBrew View Post
    A flat white should be a double shot standard, otherwise it is just a latte in a different cup.

    Can't abide places that serve a single shot flat white.
    So, what then is a 'single shot'? And isn't there more distinction between a latté and a flat white other than the cup or the shot size?
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  14. #14
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeBrew View Post
    A flat white should be a double shot standard, otherwise it is just a latte in a different cup.

    Can't abide places that serve a single shot flat white.
    Ah ok, yeah most cafes I've been to serve single shots for flat whites, same as every cafe I've worked at, but it's hard as every place has their own standard for each drink and what that entails.. tricky business!
    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    So, what then is a 'single shot'? And isn't there more distinction between a latté and a flat white other than the cup or the shot size?
    Ah the never-ending curious debate! Hehe, yeah I just don't know anymore. As far as I'm aware latte is always in a glass, single shot, milk steamed with about 1-1.5cm microfoam. Flat white usually ceramic cup (cappuccino-style cup?), single (sometimes two) shot, less microfoam, about 5mm (enough to still do art). Overall doesn't seem too much different tastewise... although cup size difference changes the ratio and therefore perceived strength. For milk drinks I usually order a strong latte (two shots), one shot just never seems to cut through much, and I quite like the good balance of how much the milk is textured (compared to a capp), and the extra shot makes it a really decent tasty ratio.

    Every cafe will have their own standard, which is a big reason alot of people will actually frequent certain cafes (simply because they make the drink how they prefer it).

  15. #15
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Ah ok, yeah most cafes I've been to serve single shots for flat whites, same as every cafe I've worked at, but it's hard as every place has their own standard for each drink and what that entails.. tricky business!Ah the never-ending curious debate! Hehe, yeah I just don't know anymore. As far as I'm aware latte is always in a glass, single shot, milk steamed with about 1-1.5cm microfoam. Flat white usually ceramic cup (cappuccino-style cup?), single (sometimes two) shot, less microfoam, about 5mm (enough to still do art). Overall doesn't seem too much different tastewise... although cup size difference changes the ratio and therefore perceived strength. For milk drinks I usually order a strong latte (two shots), one shot just never seems to cut through much, and I quite like the good balance of how much the milk is textured (compared to a capp), and the extra shot makes it a really decent tasty ratio.

    Every cafe will have their own standard, which is a big reason alot of people will actually frequent certain cafes (simply because they make the drink how they prefer it).
    Yeh, but surely the defining attribute of a flat white is that it's 'flat'? Or at least 'flatter' than a latte.

  16. #16
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    It is flatter, as the post you quoted states, it has less foam.


    Java "Flat what?" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  17. #17
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    It is flatter, as the post you quoted states, it has less foam.


    Java "Flat what?" phile
    Yes, I know that. My point was that that is the central distinction, and all the other stuff represents particular cafe's ad hoc decisions.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Yeh, but surely the defining attribute of a flat white is that it's 'flat'? Or at least 'flatter' than a latte.
    Yep it would make sense if it was completely flat, as milk just steamed and not textured, but yeah the trend seems to be just a tad textured. I remember one cafe I worked at we just gave literally just a snippet of air at the start and then submerge the wand, and we only really did that to prevent the milk from squealing loudly, which is what happens when you add no air whatsoever (quite obnoxiously haha).

  19. #19
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    I guess I have revealed myself as an "absolutist" - someone who believes (or thinks there should be) one and only one RIGHT way to do something.
    To me it makes sense that whether one, two or more shots is used depends on the cup size.
    Anything below about 120 mls only needs one shot (excepting short blacks which can be as many shots as you like)
    between 120 and 200 needs two shots to be able to be tasted,
    anything above 250 mls needs 3 shots.
    One shot in a Long-black, even a 150ml cup tastes like dishwater to me.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Yes, BUT...... everyone is using the term "one shot" !! What the heck is that? ;-))
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Yes, BUT...... everyone is using the term "one shot" !! What the heck is that? ;-))
    1 shot (single) = ~30 ml espresso
    2 shots (double) = ~60 ml espresso.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    You find frequent variation/understanding as what a single/double shot is in cafe's.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    One shot in a Long-black, even a 150ml cup tastes like dishwater to me.
    Have you tried a well made Lungo yet Rocky? big improvement on a long back as well as being a more satisfying drink than a shot.

    I'm surprised its not a topic of conversation here more frequently.

  24. #24
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Have you tried a well made Lungo yet Rocky? big improvement on a long back as well as being a more satisfying drink than a shot.

    I'm surprised its not a topic of conversation here more frequently.
    That's the one drink I just can't seem to get right. I remember you mentioning it awhile back and I did give it go (the ratio you said too), but just tasted funky. Will have to give it more of a trialling methinks, must be something I'm missing

  25. #25
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    That's the one drink I just can't seem to get right. I remember you mentioning it awhile back and I did give it go (the ratio you said too), but just tasted funky. Will have to give it more of a trialling methinks, must be something I'm missing
    Pretty straight forward Simon.

    My method:
    18 grams of dark roast coffee CS 8 or9, ground to allow an extraction of approx 90 ML's in approx 30 seconds.
    simonsk8r likes this.

  26. #26
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    I’ve made a couple of lungos that were absolutely outstanding. They can be a delicious drink if made right, but you really need to be set up to be making them all the time as you’ll waste lots of time and coffee switching between espresso and lungo.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    I’ve made a couple of lungos that were absolutely outstanding. They can be a delicious drink if made right, but you really need to be set up to be making them all the time as you’ll waste lots of time and coffee switching between espresso and lungo.
    Evening Leroy, its pretty much getting to know your equipment, particularly the grinder.

    I drink a Lungo almost exclusively, except for when we're out and about then its espresso.

    The boss prefers a Cappuccino.

    To adjust between the two (Lungo to shot) is three graduations finer on the Mini, easy and reliable, just a matter of remembering to change back, I painted a white dot on the Mini scale so I can see at a glance exactly where its set.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Don't think I get it, Yelta. So you are dosing for a double shot and grinding coarser? How come it isn't just yellow water after the first 15 seconds?

    I am totally happy with the Long-blacks I make at home, just amused that there is no consistency at cafes.

  29. #29
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Don't think I get it, Yelta. So you are dosing for a double shot and grinding coarser? How come it isn't just yellow water after the first 15 seconds?

    .
    If you grind coarser, the rate of extraction relative to volume of water that has passed through the puck is lower. So, with a coarser grind, while more water passes through in 15 seconds, the ground coffee may not be over-extracted at that point.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    OK, I think I see what you are saying. You're saying that instead of dropping a concentrated 'shot' over 2/3 cup of hot water, the same quantity of hot water comes through the shot - therefore similar result?

  31. #31
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    OK, I think I see what you are saying. You're saying that instead of dropping a concentrated 'shot' over 2/3 cup of hot water, the same quantity of hot water comes through the shot - therefore similar result?
    Sort of, I'm just saying that a coarse grind won't necessarily lead to the flow turning yellow after 15 seconds. Think of it like a pour over. The coarser grind means that the extraction is slower relative to the amount of water flowing through the coffee, but more water will flow through with a coarser grind.
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