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Thread: 5c rest or basket label

  1. #1
    Senior Member rusty888's Avatar
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    5c rest or basket label

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Just interested in everyoneís thoughts.

    I have the Pullman 17-19g basket but to dose it to get the 5c test to just leave something noticeable Iím dosing 22g and still getting a good pour (40ml in 32seconds).

    I can grind finer and go to 18 or 20 grams and get the same outputs (36ml in 32 seconds) but it feels as half the basket is empty.

    Although not worried when doing 18-20g it always leaves a soggy wet puck.

    Both still achieve a good shot. So Iím torn.

    Cheers

  2. #2
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    I generally disregard the recommendation.. sometimes it's a good ballpark figure to go by, other times not really.

    5c test seems more accurate.

    And that's the thing, different roast depths fill the basket differently in terms of volume:mass. Darker roasts will fill the basket with more volume at lower mass, lighter roasts you'll be able to fit more in mass-wise.

    Some darker roasts I've been unable to up the dose any higher than 19.5g, whereas lighter roasts I've easily managed 23g in the same basket.

    But interested in what others say regarding the range recommendation

    But taste is always, always the most reliable indicator. Some people do dose alot lower and swear by it, others dose to the max that they can without channelling happening.

  3. #3
    Senior Member rusty888's Avatar
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    Great point. I hadnít considered dark v light roast.

  4. #4
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    The important thing about the 5c test is that the coffee puck swells with water and can press against the shower screen. This can lead to 2 things, poorer shot quality as the coffee can't swell like it should and leave residue on the shower screen.

    Best if you can eliminate it with either a larger basket or less dose/finer grind.

  5. #5
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    Hi Rusty888
    what machine are you using, ECM Tech? Wondering how deep the shower screen is ie what headroom is there?

    my Oscar 2 has 10mm of headroom from memory and I’m using the Pullman 20-22g basket and dose 21.5-22g normally

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    I generally disregard the recommendation.. sometimes it's a good ballpark figure to go by, other times not really.

    5c test seems more accurate.

    And that's the thing, different roast depths fill the basket differently in terms of volume:mass. Darker roasts will fill the basket with more volume at lower mass, lighter roasts you'll be able to fit more in mass-wise.

    Some darker roasts I've been unable to up the dose any higher than 19.5g, whereas lighter roasts I've easily managed 23g in the same basket.

    But interested in what others say regarding the range recommendation

    But taste is always, always the most reliable indicator. Some people do dose alot lower and swear by it, others dose to the max that they can without channelling happening.
    G'day simonsk8r

    Two quick "myth dispersal" points
    1) The 5c test has probably created more awful coffee outcomes than damn near any other myth. Arguably excepting the other semi traditional / "presumably enshrined in stone on some mountain somewhere" "4 to 11 day post roast" myth - which only applies to fairly dark roasts / high solubility / low density beans. Reality check here - as partially already stated in this thread: roast solubility and density varies according to the actual bean varietal, the type of processing and the roast depth. IMO at least 25% range each side of the "average" of 100%. Quite a variable thickness needed for the humble American nickel - which is where this particular myth seems to have originated.

    2) Puckology would have to be the most worthless "art" in the trade. All it is good for is demonstrating whether really bad channeling has occurred - and often it does not even show it that well anyway. Wet or dry - meh. Some machines actually have a slow turn off to try to prevent too much clogging of their showerscreens so they always drop a few ml of low pressure water after the shot is "finished". Other machines stop on a knife edge and still have wet pucks when the shot finishes (partially depends on grind texture, and almost certainly a whole batch of other items I have never bothered to look into). One quick other puck point - if it falls apart when leaving the basket then the shot will taste like crap anyway so the setup is wrong (so wrong...) that it needs a proper setup. The pour (which is much more critical) would tell you that long before the shot is finished anyway. Puckology: Utterly useless.

    Weighing your dose and being within recommended range is usually a good idea to help set up your grinder to get the best out of whatever bean is in front of you. Then taste is the beginning, middle and final arbiter when judging your craft.

    TampIt
    Last edited by TampIt; 23rd May 2018 at 01:02 AM.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    G'day simonsk8r

    Two quick "myth dispersal" points
    1) The 5c test has probably created more awful coffee outcomes than damn near any other myth. Arguably excepting the other semi traditional / "presumably enshrined in stone on some mountain somewhere" "4 to 11 day post roast" myth - which only applies to fairly dark roasts / high solubility / low density beans. Reality check here - as partially already stated in this thread: roast solubility and density varies according to the actual bean varietal, the type of processing and the roast depth. IMO at least 25% range each side of the "average" of 100%. Quite a variable thickness needed for the humble American nickel - which is where this particular myth seems to have originated.

    2) Puckology would have to be the most worthless "art" in the trade. All it is good for is demonstrating whether really bad channeling has occurred - and often it does not even show it that well anyway. Wet or dry - meh. Some machines actually have a slow turn off to try to prevent too much clogging of their showerscreens so they always drop a few ml of low pressure water after the shot is "finished". Other machines stop on a knife edge and still have wet pucks when the shot finishes (partially depends on grind texture, and almost certainly a whole batch of other items I have never bothered to look into). One quick other puck point - if it falls apart when leaving the basket then the shot will taste like crap anyway so the setup is wrong (so wrong...) that it needs a proper setup. The pour (which is much more critical) would tell you that long before the shot is finished anyway. Puckology: Utterly useless.

    Weighing your dose and being within recommended range is usually a good idea to help set up your grinder to get the best out of whatever bean is in front of you. Then taste is the beginning, middle and final arbiter when judging your craft.

    TampIt
    G'day , appreciate your thoughts TampIt.

    Hmm, I don't see how the 5c test has caused the massive disaster that you've claimed... care to elaborate? How could it? It's a really good general guide to help prevent overdosing the basket (and show if you're perhaps underdosing a bit, which to me is not as crucial) and getting a fairly good gauge as to a good level to stick with in the basket. Especially for people starting out, if you can set the dose and standardise that, then you can focus on what really matters, the grind size (and of course good distribution within the basket). Just uncertain how it's vehemently seen as NOT a good practice...

    And for sure the recommended range they list for baskets can be a good guide, and of course weighing your dose, that's what I generally recommend with the 5c test. Not just using the coin, but measuring the dose prior so that you can stick with that dose for that particular bean. And yes roast depth changes the dose level, so it makes sense with a particular bean to use the test to standardise your dose and not play around too much with it. The other things (varietal, processing) I'm not sure if they really need to be focused on when setting your dose..


    I never actually mentioned puckology (the practice of observing and analysing a puck after extraction), not once, so not sure why that's being brought up?

    That's sorta why I mentioned to use the 5c test as it can avoid all the obsessiveness about how the puck looks after the extraction..

    With all due respect, sorta sounds like you're wanting to vent some frustrations bringing up points that weren't really talked about... which is cool, but didn't see the relevance.. just trying to understand here.

  8. #8
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    Establish & Know your Shot Recipe

    To address the Question originally asked ....
    Adopt the...... Nominal Weight as stated by the Basket Manufacturer (OEM / Aftermarket?) ....OR
    Test the Machine and establish what dose 'level' can & will work (consistently) ?

    As in what height to set the Puck up at? Or what gap to leave for the Heat Sink /
    Shower screen to protrude down into the basket, once locked away?

    Well yes I adopt the 5cTest. Makes good sense to me, from the day I first read of it, on Here.
    Do I throw a coin on top (of the puck) every time I do a shot, & lock off the G/Handle. Nup. (Obv)

    I may have only done it 1/2doz times in total. (In reality more than that, but not to sound like a total gumby).
    But its there in my 'kit bag' in my 'Barista tools' if I choose to use it.
    To me its a one off test / measure as part of my shot recipe.
    As I choose to set it up, when new equipment first comes into play.
    Definitely not done daily!

    But i did (originally) waste that dose by tipping it out And Weighing it. Same As, before I do that, I used my
    tamper to show me What is the 'headspace' required so that the showerscreen does not disturb my puck....as I set it up. A good quality Tamper is whats required here.

    Bingo that's all it is. Nothing more or less.
    So in effect I DO use it daily...but I 'just invert the whole concept' and use the Tamper Shoulder to show a final
    set point, post tamp.

    And After I've worked to a pre-established dose weight. Or quantity (spoon measure if no scales avail.)

    Of course This is just a part of my 'recipe' that I find delivers consistency. And as with the other inputs a practised Barista will beaver away with their recipe till they achieve consistently the good shot flavours they appreciate.
    As said in previous responses above... its all down to tasting the shot. Let that be your guide.
    Last edited by EspressoAdventurer; 23rd May 2018 at 01:54 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Seems Tampit is feeling a little contrary again.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Seems Tampit is feeling a little contrary again.
    I just get amused when people pontificate with contradictions.....
    Lukemc and 338 like this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Erimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    G'day , appreciate your thoughts TampIt.

    Hmm, I don't see how the 5c test has caused the massive disaster that you've claimed... care to elaborate? How could it? It's a really good general guide to help prevent overdosing the basket (and show if you're perhaps underdosing a bit, which to me is not as crucial) and getting a fairly good gauge as to a good level to stick with in the basket. Especially for people starting out, if you can set the dose and standardise that, then you can focus on what really matters, the grind size (and of course good distribution within the basket). Just uncertain how it's vehemently seen as NOT a good practice...

    And for sure the recommended range they list for baskets can be a good guide, and of course weighing your dose, that's what I generally recommend with the 5c test. Not just using the coin, but measuring the dose prior so that you can stick with that dose for that particular bean. And yes roast depth changes the dose level, so it makes sense with a particular bean to use the test to standardise your dose and not play around too much with it. The other things (varietal, processing) I'm not sure if they really need to be focused on when setting your dose..


    I never actually mentioned puckology (the practice of observing and analysing a puck after extraction), not once, so not sure why that's being brought up?

    That's sorta why I mentioned to use the 5c test as it can avoid all the obsessiveness about how the puck looks after the extraction..

    With all due respect, sorta sounds like you're wanting to vent some frustrations bringing up points that weren't really talked about... which is cool, but didn't see the relevance.. just trying to understand here.
    Tampit is replying to the thread and OP as well as you. It was the OP that mentioned a soggy puck.
    chippy likes this.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
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    Weigh it, or time it, put it in the PF and spread it with your finger. Tamp and pull lever god shots.

    Oh wait.......that’s waaaay too old school......sigh
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  13. #13
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus View Post
    Tampit is replying to the thread and OP as well as you. It was the OP that mentioned a soggy puck.
    Ah yep true, didn't realise that, as the way the post was written it seemed more directed, but fair call

  14. #14
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    Weigh it, or time it, put it in the PF and spread it with your finger. Tamp and pull lever god shots.

    Oh wait.......thatís waaaay too old school......sigh
    Yep! it's as simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    G'day , appreciate your thoughts TampIt.

    Hmm, I don't see how the 5c test has caused the massive disaster that you've claimed... care to elaborate? How could it? It's a really good general guide to help prevent overdosing the basket (and show if you're perhaps underdosing a bit, which to me is not as crucial) and getting a fairly good gauge as to a good level to stick with in the basket. Especially for people starting out, if you can set the dose and standardise that, then you can focus on what really matters, the grind size (and of course good distribution within the basket). Just uncertain how it's vehemently seen as NOT a good practice...

    And for sure the recommended range they list for baskets can be a good guide, and of course weighing your dose, that's what I generally recommend with the 5c test. Not just using the coin, but measuring the dose prior so that you can stick with that dose for that particular bean. And yes roast depth changes the dose level, so it makes sense with a particular bean to use the test to standardise your dose and not play around too much with it. The other things (varietal, processing) I'm not sure if they really need to be focused on when setting your dose..


    I never actually mentioned puckology (the practice of observing and analysing a puck after extraction), not once, so not sure why that's being brought up?

    That's sorta why I mentioned to use the 5c test as it can avoid all the obsessiveness about how the puck looks after the extraction..

    With all due respect, sorta sounds like you're wanting to vent some frustrations bringing up points that weren't really talked about... which is cool, but didn't see the relevance.. just trying to understand here.
    5 cent test is used as an 11th commandment far too often. Over too many years I have found a lot of variance in the basket to grouphead clearance of some commercial machines - or even the clearance within each group of a multiple group machine for that matter - e.g. the one I learnt on originally, where I colour coded the matching basket / p/f / group combos which could actually give a decent cuppa after grinding some of the lugs of the p/f's to fit a specific grouphead. Thankfully most machines today have much finer tolerances.

    In an ideal world that clearance would be a standard, or at the very least it would be stated. As long as the fully expanded puck touches the showerscreen without impacting it "too much" (whatever that means in practice) the dosage / grind / tamping combo is more likely to work well. Given the variance in density, solubility and volume, that is a moving target on any given machine anyway. As the shot progresses the puck then shrinks again which makes it a difficult problem to even troubleshoot in some environments - especially in highly soluble cases when "in the zone" shots always have wettish pucks anyway so it may appear underdosed. Back to taste...

    I have no problem with people using any method to get somewhere "within the zone" of a good shot. Unfortunately the 5 cent test seems to have become a hard and fast mantra in too many cases. IMO staying within the baskets rating range in grams is usually a better starting point than the 5 cent test before fine tuning according to taste. Not overdosing usually also means far less daily (hourly in busy cafes) maintenance as the showerscreens stay cleaner for longer. Underdosing is usually not a problem as most wannabee baristas usually "fill 'er up", however an underdosed shot always fails the most rudimentary taste test.

    As already stated by a few others the soggy puck thing was the OP. I added it because I was referring to the whole earlier thread and it is another of my pet peeves. I should have made that clearer - sorry 'bout the confusion it caused you.

    If I had $5 for every stuff up caused by either of those two myths in sites I have sorted over the years I would be quite a lot richer.

    Enjoy your cuppa, all else is secondary.

    TampIt

  16. #16
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty888 View Post
    Just interested in everyone’s thoughts.

    I have the Pullman 17-19g basket but to dose it to get the 5c test to just leave something noticeable I’m dosing 22g and still getting a good pour (40ml in 32seconds).

    I can grind finer and go to 18 or 20 grams and get the same outputs (36ml in 32 seconds) but it feels as half the basket is empty.

    Although not worried when doing 18-20g it always leaves a soggy wet puck.

    Both still achieve a good shot. So I’m torn.

    Cheers
    Too fine a grind or under-dosing or a combination of both can cause a soggy puck.

    As far as dosing goes, I found that the Scottie Callaghan dosing tools are useful for fine tuning. Once you level off the grinds you select from the different profiles to skim out the required amount of grinds prior to tamping to slightly vary the height of the tamped puck (dose weight). Helps with shot consistency also.

    I probably wouldn't have bought these due to the price but a set of 3 came with a previous coffee machine. I use the appropriate size daily and find that changing between bean batches I only need to vary up or down by 1 size in the double basket.

    http://clean-machine.com.au/Coffee-D...Callaghan.html

    Site Sponsor Coffee Parts had these - https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/scott...ce-keyring-set

    Not sure if the 3 piece set is still available. Coffee Parts had 3 other sets with more pieces also.
    Last edited by CafeLotta; 24th May 2018 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Edit Links

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    Weigh it, or time it, put it in the PF and spread it with your finger. Tamp and pull lever god shots.

    Oh wait.......that’s waaaay too old school......sigh
    Weigh it ?? Time it !! .....Old School...OH that sounds way to cool ....
    for school
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  18. #18
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    5 cent test is used as an 11th commandment far too often. Over too many years I have found a lot of variance in the basket to grouphead clearance of some commercial machines - or even the clearance within each group of a multiple group machine for that matter - e.g. the one I learnt on originally, where I colour coded the matching basket / p/f / group combos which could actually give a decent cuppa after grinding some of the lugs of the p/f's to fit a specific grouphead. Thankfully most machines today have much finer tolerances.

    In an ideal world that clearance would be a standard, or at the very least it would be stated. As long as the fully expanded puck touches the showerscreen without impacting it "too much" (whatever that means in practice) the dosage / grind / tamping combo is more likely to work well. Given the variance in density, solubility and volume, that is a moving target on any given machine anyway. As the shot progresses the puck then shrinks again which makes it a difficult problem to even troubleshoot in some environments - especially in highly soluble cases when "in the zone" shots always have wettish pucks anyway so it may appear underdosed. Back to taste...

    I have no problem with people using any method to get somewhere "within the zone" of a good shot. Unfortunately the 5 cent test seems to have become a hard and fast mantra in too many cases. IMO staying within the baskets rating range in grams is usually a better starting point than the 5 cent test before fine tuning according to taste. Not overdosing usually also means far less daily (hourly in busy cafes) maintenance as the showerscreens stay cleaner for longer.
    Ah ok fair enough, but yeah this one of the exact reasons why I (and many others) recommend using the 5c test, precisely to avoid this issue of different machines having different grouphead/showerhead clearance. And by no means am I saying it's a golden rule or anything, but just a handy way to set your dose so that you can avoid channelling occurring solely because of this variable. The test shows what is a useful dose for YOUR machine. Sometimes that's all some people needed, when someone asks what's going wrong with my shot, we can go through the beans, machine, distribution, but if the dose is set too high initially it will be very erratic, and no amount of tinkering with the other variables will really alleviate the issue (then again I've had some ripper shots even though I knew the dose was too high and there was some puck scraping XD, but just not consistent enough results).

    And yeah, the some basket ratings seem sometimes too generic at times and don't take into account your particular machine's clearance level and roast depth which affects volume in the basket. It's good learning about different approaches though for sure, and what some find helpful others just will not, so all good stuff here



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