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Thread: Advice wanted about dosing / dialling in

  1. #1
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    Advice wanted about dosing / dialling in

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I have recently purchased a used Bezzera BZ99S and Lido E grinder and I am having difficulties in finding the right grind and dose. The machine has been serviced by a Bezzera specialist and he reported that it is performs pretty well when tested after the service.

    The puck is always covered in water an a little sloppy and some coffee rises up on the edge of the basket. I use a espy calibrated tamper and use the NSWE technique with no polishing.

    I cannot change the dosing much as the shower screen protrudes into the basket by a large amount and I am constraint by that in not exceeding a certain puck height.

    I have tried to set the grinder from 4 to 10 with no great difference on the results. I suspect that the problem might be related to the fact that the shower screen (just replaced) is actually convex so it is quite difficult to get the dosing right, as the puck can press against the outer edge and at the same time have a gap at the centre of the screen.

    To have a flat screen I should leave the screen screw quite loose which would just about hold the shower head in place.

    What am I doing wrong?

  2. #2
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    You can always get an aftermarket basket like a pullman/RST basket that can hold more - they are deeper so you have to be careful to make sure it fits in your portafilter, but wouldn't be a problem with a naked.

    The Lido E should be more than capable of delivering a fine and consistent enough grind, but maybe borrowing a grinder might eliminate the concerns about the Lido E being capable enough.

  3. #3
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    Check dose height in the basket. The Bezzeras can be a bit finicky due to the shower screen depth.
    It’s important to ensure the grinds weight in the basket is the same every time, are you weighing every time?
    Place a 5c piece on top of a fresh ground coffee puck. Lock the portafilter into the group head, then remove. Check if the coin makes a subtle indent only. If it’s compressed into the puck you have too much in the basket.
    Let us know how this goes....

  4. #4
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    Hi, I’m not weighing but I’m getting pretty good at dosing consistently making sure that the height of the puck after tamping is just about to touch the shower screen rim (which is the lowest part of the screen). I am using a calibrated tamper so the height of the coffee before tamping is the only variable, which I can now control fairly consistently.

    I had a better result last time I brewed doing a calibrated tamp on each of the NSWE ones rather than a light one only after the first hard centre one, I suspect that the cause might be that the coffee wasn’t compacted enough around the basket edge......

  5. #5
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    What does the brewed coffee taste like?
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  6. #6
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    Is the only issue you have a sloppy puck?
    I agree with Barry, does the coffee taste good? Do you like what is produced or are you striving for a little bit better?
    if you are not willing to get technical in order to diagnose any potential issues, and you are happy with the coffee produced, I would ignore the puck.
    crazyhakins likes this.

  7. #7
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    I am not an expert and I always drink coffee with milk so I think the milk would tone down excessive bitterness or sourness, but my brew tastes blander and not as flavoursome as the coffee I brew with the same beans at the office.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    My lido e setting is just coarser than 2. The burrs rub lightly at -2, and i adjust with it upside down as in the youtube clip for alignment.
    This setting works for my musica, and also just tried it on a 6910 and its very very close.

    Are your beans ok?

    And yes, 4-10 will make little difference as its just too coarse all together. I grind for my plunger at 8 (they say it as 0:8 - 0 turns, 8th mark...i think )
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Jackster's Avatar
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    Also notice the cable tie on the centre shaft. It stirs the beans as you grind so they dont get hung up on the webs.
    I also have removed the centre screw underneath for easier cleaning.
    And got a 99c art paintbrush from bunnings to sweep the hopper and underneath the burrs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfish View Post
    I am not an expert and I always drink coffee with milk so I think the milk would tone down excessive bitterness or sourness, but my brew tastes blander and not as flavoursome as the coffee I brew with the same beans at the office.
    When youíre dialing in and troubleshooting, you need to taste your straight espresso.

    Milk dilutes and hides a lot of flaws in the shots.
    Dimal likes this.

  11. #11
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    I bought the machine used so cannot be sure that the baskets I’ve been given are the original ones that were supplied with the machine; are Bezzera baskets deeper than normal to compensate for the lower screen, or do they just take less coffee instead?

  12. #12
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    When you’re dialing in and troubleshooting, you need to taste your straight espresso.
    Or as Long Blacks if espresso is too intense...

    Mal.

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    Apologies for resurrecting this old thread but I am having troubles every time I use my single shot PF with my Bezzera BZ99S. I am now able to pull a decent coffee using the double PF, but every time I use the single I experience bad channelling. Beans are fresh from a local quality roaster, and I have no issue using the same beans and technique with the double PF.
    I've tried to increase/decrease the dose from 7g to 9g, and grind finer/coarser but it made no difference. I am using a lido E hand grinder and a 30 lb calibrated tamper, and I weigh the dose with an electronic scale.
    I suspect that the problem could be related to the fact that the single basket has only room for around 2mm of coffee or less on the edges, as the shower protrudes quite a lot into the basket on my machine.

    9igzEDkYQnqqBQnn88E0Mg.jpg

  14. #14
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfish View Post
    Apologies for resurrecting this old thread but I am having troubles every time I use my single shot PF with my Bezzera BZ99S. I am now able to pull a decent coffee using the double PF, but every time I use the single I experience bad channelling. Beans are fresh from a local quality roaster, and I have no issue using the same beans and technique with the double PF.
    I've tried to increase/decrease the dose from 7g to 9g, and grind finer/coarser but it made no difference. I am using a lido E hand grinder and a 30 lb calibrated tamper, and I weigh the dose with an electronic scale.
    I suspect that the problem could be related to the fact that the single basket has only room for around 2mm of coffee or less on the edges, as the shower protrudes quite a lot into the basket on my machine.
    Very common Blackfish, most find single baskets difficult, not saying it cant be done, however most switch to using a double basket exclusively, much easier.

  15. #15
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    Some folks stick to a double basket with a double spout and run one of the spouts into the target cup and dispose of the other.

    I canít come to a reliable outcome with a single and I canít stand to throw it away so itís doubles every time at my place.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanderP View Post
    Some folks stick to a double basket with a double spout and run one of the spouts into the target cup and dispose of the other.

    I canít come to a reliable outcome with a single and I canít stand to throw it away so itís doubles every time at my place.
    Yep, cant argue with this logic, doubles all the way here as well.
    SanderP likes this.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfish View Post
    Apologies for resurrecting this old thread but I am having troubles every time I use my single shot PF with my Bezzera BZ99S. I am now able to pull a decent coffee using the double PF, but every time I use the single I experience bad channelling. Beans are fresh from a local quality roaster, and I have no issue using the same beans and technique with the double PF.
    I've tried to increase/decrease the dose from 7g to 9g, and grind finer/coarser but it made no difference. I am using a lido E hand grinder and a 30 lb calibrated tamper, and I weigh the dose with an electronic scale.
    I suspect that the problem could be related to the fact that the single basket has only room for around 2mm of coffee or less on the edges, as the shower protrudes quite a lot into the basket on my machine.

    9igzEDkYQnqqBQnn88E0Mg.jpg
    G'day Blackfish

    I have posted before on CS that a lot of single baskets are actually "untampable". The photo looks like one of them. Any basket with a shallow bowl shaped base cannot be tamped reliably.

    Try a single VST (it has a shoulder and a deep central portion) or similar basket and dose it to 7.2g (using 0.1g scales is almost essential when setting up a single). Find any flat based object the correct size to tamp it (about 40mm from memory) and adjust the grind to get the shot within timing range of (say) 25 to 35 seconds "post preinfusion" until the taste is correct.

    That is how I have set up many friend's cafes over the years using fairly simple logic - if the single works, then all the other baskets will be close enough*.

    BTW, your Lido should have an even enough particle spread to work with a VST.


    TampIt
    * VSTs vary the size of their holes as the basket size changes. This makes the overall flow rate of all their baskets similar, so the same grinding texture works on their 7g as well as their 15, 18, 20 and 22g. Makes cafe life so much easier when you can use any basket on the shelf without farting around with the grinder...
    Blackfish likes this.

  18. #18
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    Red face

    Hi, Iíve attached photos of my single basket and of another basket which came with the second hand machine and also causes the same issue; the centre funnel looks slightly larger, but Iíve measured the depth at the outer shoulder and they are identical.

    I always use a 0.1g scale to dose the beans and tamp on a silicone corner mat so the pf is fairly stable. Always use graduated shot glasses, but as the channeling occurs the shot glass is full in less than 20 seconds no matter what.

    Iíll try the VST basket, should I look into a tamper matched to the basket as well?


    E8131FCF-0758-443D-99B7-5B0F153A1B4E.jpg
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfish View Post
    Hi, Iíve attached photos of my single basket and of another basket which came with the second hand machine and also causes the same issue; the centre funnel looks slightly larger, but Iíve measured the depth at the outer shoulder and they are identical.

    I always use a 0.1g scale to dose the beans and tamp on a silicone corner mat so the pf is fairly stable. Always use graduated shot glasses, but as the channeling occurs the shot glass is full in less than 20 seconds no matter what.

    Iíll try the VST basket, should I look into a tamper matched to the basket as well?


    E8131FCF-0758-443D-99B7-5B0F153A1B4E.jpg

    Gday Blackfish

    The first one is definitely "untampable" in the sense of making a decent cuppa. The second one looks better, although I cannot tell from that angle. Find a photo of a 7g VST and see if it is close enough to the same shape.

    FWIW, my ideal single basket would have even steeper sides than the VST, as I had to get my 316 prototype single tamper (see photo - if it worked) machined to match the slope of the side of the "inner wall". Having said that, I did manage to use a 1/3 full Smartwater bottle as a temporary tamper successfully for a year or so before then. Oh, and yes - a VST requires a flat base on the tamper to work properly.
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  20. #20
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    So, out of curiosity, why coffee machine manufacturers keep producing unusable single baskets?????

  21. #21
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Well, some people, like my lovely lady for instance, consider that even half a Single Shot is on the strong side for them so no doubt a lot of users still use the Single. Have never found the Single on any machine difficult to dial in to be honest but of course, everyone's mileage will vary...
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Well, some people, like my lovely lady for instance, consider that even half a Single Shot is on the strong side for them so no doubt a lot of users still use the Single. Have never found the Single on any machine difficult to dial in to be honest but of course, everyone's mileage will vary...
    Have to admit Mal, I have never persevered with the single, simply because I worked out very early on in my espresso career that my preference is for 18 grams of ground coffee in the basket for both a Lungo and a double shot.

    Having said that I do recall pfaffing around with the single basket many years ago in the Silvia with inglorious results, that's when I started using the EP 14/18 baskets, I have never changed, the Bezzera PF has never seen a single basket, and that's now going on for 10 years old.

    I imagine if I had the desire I could sort one out now, I simply don't need to.
    Dimal likes this.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Well, some people, like my lovely lady for instance, consider that even half a Single Shot is on the strong side for them so no doubt a lot of users still use the Single. Have never found the Single on any machine difficult to dial in to be honest but of course, everyone's mileage will vary...
    I too would like to be able to successfully use a single basket but from previous posts it seems that except the specialty brand ones such as VST, all other ones sold with machine such as my Bezzera one are unusable. I’ve not once been able to pull a decent single shot so far, and all the options in reply to my request for advice is that it is that the basket fault. So why are they still made like that?

  24. #24
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfish View Post
    So why are they still made like that?
    Groundhog day.
    Groundhog day.jpg
    Dimal and DaveD like this.

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    Having made over 7000 single basket consecutive shots I have always wondered about the comments that say they are hard to do compared to double shots. I have never bothered with the double shot basket. It may only be peculiar to my machine, but as long as I have fresh roasted quality beans I am certain of success with the single shot basket.
    Dimal and Yelta like this.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenK View Post
    Having made over 7000 single basket consecutive shots I have always wondered about the comments that say they are hard to do compared to double shots. I have never bothered with the double shot basket. It may only be peculiar to my machine, but as long as I have fresh roasted quality beans I am certain of success with the single shot basket.
    Practice makes perfect.



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