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Thread: Espresso taste, feedback on settings please

  1. #1
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    Espresso taste, feedback on settings please

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi All,

    We drink mainly lattes, but I'm trying to get my espresso "right" so they taste as good as possible.

    I have a Breville BES920 with about a 7 second pre infusion. I've always included that in my ~30sec shot, but never been really happy with the espresso. Although I admit I don't really know what the perfect espresso tastes like! I could read a book on how it should taste, but that doesn't replace actually drinking one...

    So, after reading this Have I been making Espresso wrong all this time? I thought I would try timing after the pre infusion. So shots would be around 35-40 sec total.

    I've ground up 18g in double PF, from an Atom grinder.

    Temp set at 92C.

    I extract 60ml, with about 15-20ml crema once settled over 10 sec or so. Shot weight is 50g however. This seems a little high? More like a 1:2.8 ratio rather than 1:2.

    The first drip is at about 12 seconds.

    The taste to me is milder, with none of the back of the throat bite I used to get. The crema is a little less than I usually get.

    Is this heading in the right direction ? Or am I just watering down the shot ?

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    Depends on the beans you are using....???

    Dark roast at 1:2 / 18g in / 36 out i would want less than 30sec incl Pi. If i was to go for 1:1 ristretto i would grind a lot finer, change Pi to 10 to 12 sec and aim for around 35 to 40 sec total.

    All the super light roasts going around are another thing altogether. Grind as fine as you can, 16g dose, distribution / tamp even and try for 1:2 to 1:3 ratio, 1:3 in 35 seconds is a good starting point.

    Old coffee updose and do not grind it too fine, you want even flow even if its a bit quick.

    You can adjust your Pi setting to 75 to 85% and 60sec.
    This will mean the whole shot is extracted in Pi mode at a lower pressure and much slower flow of water from group, which can be useful if you are trying to extract very light roasts.

    If you have a well roasted med to med dark blend it will be highly soluble, so ive found you can turn Pi off altogether and pull normal shots at 9bar around 28sec which taste great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    Depends on the beans you are using....???

    Dark roast at 1:2 / 18g in / 36 out i would want less than 30sec incl Pi. If i was to go for 1:1 ristretto i would grind a lot finer, change Pi to 10 to 12 sec and aim for around 35 to 40 sec total.

    All the super light roasts going around are another thing altogether. Grind as fine as you can, 16g dose, distribution / tamp even and try for 1:2 to 1:3 ratio, 1:3 in 35 seconds is a good starting point.

    Old coffee updose and do not grind it too fine, you want even flow even if its a bit quick.

    You can adjust your Pi setting to 75 to 85% and 60sec.
    This will mean the whole shot is extracted in Pi mode at a lower pressure and much slower flow of water from group, which can be useful if you are trying to extract very light roasts.

    If you have a well roasted med to med dark blend it will be highly soluble, so ive found you can turn Pi off altogether and pull normal shots at 9bar around 28sec which taste great.
    Hi Steve82,

    Thanks for your comments.
    The beans I am using are Ladder 59 from Arrosto Coffee

    I don't think they would be considered a light roast, but not really dark either. (actually not sure how to tell much more than that)
    Last edited by Javaphile; 14th August 2018 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Commercial link removed

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    I looked it up, reads like my last paragraph would apply. You should be able to get tasty shots with Pi off 27 to 30 sec assuming its within 4 weeks of roast. Try 1:1.5, 1:2, 1:2.5 and see what you prefer. Then play with Pi to see if it improves.
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    So I've just been through this exact thing and at best you can get double the volume (2:1) from your grind so at 18g you will get max 36ml from them and you should be getting it in 25-35 sec.

    Next thing I learnt is to recognise over extraction. This is identified by a white trail through the Crema and is pretty much pure caffeine which is quite bitter.

    I just bought an IMS 18g basket and fit 21g of grinds in it and after the obligatory faffing around with grind setting wow what a difference it makes. Amazing Crema. Much deeper flavour to the pull. Stocked with it.

    Ohh and I also have the BES920 with a Sette 270W grinder.

    Cheers

    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    I looked it up, reads like my last paragraph would apply. You should be able to get tasty shots with Pi off 27 to 30 sec assuming its within 4 weeks of roast. Try 1:1.5, 1:2, 1:2.5 and see what you prefer. Then play with Pi to see if it improves.
    Thanks Steve82, I'll give that a shot today.

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    Hi Andrew,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I was of the understanding that it is weight that should be measured, not so much the volume. As coffee, and crema in particular, are lighter than water. So I should be aiming at 36g from an 18g grind. Volume could be up around 50ml.

    Thanks for the suggestion on the white trail in the crema. I haven't seen it so far, or noticed it at least. Good to know though.

    Looks like more experimenting to come. Glad I just bought another 1kg of coffee!!! I certainly throw more out than I drink at this point.....

    Cheers
    Jamie

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    Espresso taste, feedback on settings please

    A white crema trail that contains pure caffeine?!!!!! giggled like a schoolgirl! Now I think Iíve heard it all.

    Jamie Steve has offered some great advice above and you are correct that you should be measuring weight if possible, especially if youíre trying to improve and take your coffee to the next level. The initial variables you mention donít really line up so Iíd definitely do what Steve recommended. Without knowing too much about the coffee or the ins and outs of the BES920 I canít say for sure, but it could also be worth trying a slightly higher brew temp. Try 93deg first, then maybe 94, but I reckon 93 is probably going to be best. I noticed big improvements when I went to a slightly higher brew temp on my EM6910 for an typical medium roast blend.
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    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonj View Post

    So, after reading this Have I been making Espresso wrong all this time? I thought I would try timing after the pre infusion. So shots would be around 35-40 sec total.
    I think that this is a great example of why it is the flavour – not the numbers – that should be our guide

    I've had great shots from 30sec pours & 90sec pours (almost chokes!) – I never throw anything away anymore. And in general I have found that with my setup, a finer grind and a longer, slower, drippy pour tastes better. Sounds like he found that too!

    Pays to keep tweaking …
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    I think that this is a great example of why it is the flavour – not the numbers – that should be our guide

    I've had great shots from 30sec pours & 90sec pours (almost chokes!) – I never throw anything away anymore. And in general I have found that with my setup, a finer grind and a longer, slower, drippy pour tastes better. Sounds like he found that too!

    Pays to keep tweaking …
    Yes, totally agree. After all it is a beverage, not a maths equation! however as I need a starting point I was following the numbers. I've certainly had some different flavours come out with all the experimentation. The burn at the back of the throat was a real turn off, and I'm not convinced this is how the world's most popular drink should taste. But hey, I don't like vodka either!!

    I've just burnt through half a kilo of beans experimenting, but I think I have a pleasurable result.

    This is what the numbers say.

    18g in

    39g out, with about 50ml of liquid in 30 seconds.

    Lots of crema that settles to about 15ml after 15 sec or so.

    Taste is smooth but strong, and no bite at the back of the throat.

    Left the temp at 92, but will try back at 93 or 94 to see if I can notice much difference.
    I also removed the pre infusion and was surprised at the nicer result right away. So odd, as it seems like a rational thing to do. And maybe something else changed, but so far I prefer it without PI.

    I think I need to have a couple days off drinking coffee and then go back and see if I still like the taste the way it is. I have noticed, and maybe it's just me, that coffee tastes different if I drink it 3x a day, as apposed to one every couple days. Almost like my taste buds become desensitised.

    So hard to stay objective about all this, when most of it is subjective. Not to mention a sample size of 1.... But hey, it's lots of fun too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    A white crema trail that contains pure caffeine?!!!!! giggled like a schoolgirl! Now I think I’ve heard it all.

    Jamie Steve has offered some great advice above and you are correct that you should be measuring weight if possible, especially if you’re trying to improve and take your coffee to the next level. The initial variables you mention don’t really line up so I’d definitely do what Steve recommended. Without knowing too much about the coffee or the ins and outs of the BES920 I can’t say for sure, but it could also be worth trying a slightly higher brew temp. Try 93deg first, then maybe 94, but I reckon 93 is probably going to be best. I noticed big improvements when I went to a slightly higher brew temp on my EM6910 for an typical medium roast blend.
    Thanks Leroy.

    Yes I think Steve has hit the nail on the head with the PI. See my other comments, but I am a little surprised at the difference it made, for the better.
    I'll play with temps a little too, but I'm at risk of overdosing on caffeine right now, so will take a little break. Might go do a triathlon or something .

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    I had a laugh. Yeah better take a break.

    What Matt said is also important and youíve already discovered that the result in the cup is the main indicator of success. Use the numbers to guide you towards the sweet spot, but donít get hung up on having to hit an exact set of metrics, especially if when you do so the results arenít great.
    Once youíre in that Ďcorrectí zone youíll then need to experiment as you have been to get where you want to be. Once youíve got something youíre happy with the good thing about keeping note of weights and times is that you should be able to repeat this each time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    A white crema trail that contains pure caffeine?!!!!! giggled like a schoolgirl! Now I think I’ve heard it all.

    Jamie Steve has offered some great advice above and you are correct that you should be measuring weight if possible, especially if you’re trying to improve and take your coffee to the next level. The initial variables you mention don’t really line up so I’d definitely do what Steve recommended. Without knowing too much about the coffee or the ins and outs of the BES920 I can’t say for sure, but it could also be worth trying a slightly higher brew temp. Try 93deg first, then maybe 94, but I reckon 93 is probably going to be best. I noticed big improvements when I went to a slightly higher brew temp on my EM6910 for an typical medium roast blend.
    Wow...nice reply. Straight to the sarcasm, I know everything and you can't possibly know what I know

    For those that care to read Commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy

    Diagnosis: When your espresso comes out tasting bitter, it usually means that the*extraction*or pour time is too long. Commonly, you’ll see a pale yellow/white stream of coffee that wobbles and spirals towards the end of the shot.

    Remedy: Adjust your brew time. A good pour will be somewhere between 25 – 35 secs. Keep watch on the shot as it comes through and as soon as you see the coffee coming out in a light “blonde” colour, stop the shot immediately. This is almost pure caffeine and caffeine tastes very bitter so you want to avoid this and stop the shot as soon as you see it start blonding. Most people make the mistake of trying to extract too much coffee out of a single coffee dose. If you want a strong coffee, get a bigger basket (22g – 28g) and keep the shot time within the ideal range. Don’t worry, you’ll still get your caffeine fix, it just won’t be as bitter.

    In the end, I don't particularly care what the composition of the blonding is, it's bitter and caused by over extracting. I've tested it and adjusted my extraction based on it.
    Last edited by Javaphile; 16th August 2018 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Commercial link removed

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    Quote Originally Posted by drwharris View Post
    For those that care to read Commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy
    Although mostly true, have never heard it claimed before that the crema trail is pure caffeine. Would need to be shown some evidence to back this up before believing.
    Caffeine may be bitter and the crema trail may be bitter but it does not mean there is a correlation. There are many other chemicals influencing the flavour of the crema trail.
    Last edited by Javaphile; 16th August 2018 at 11:20 PM. Reason: commercial link removed
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    "Caffeine is extracted early, so higher yields do not yield more caffeinated coffee, only over-extracted coffee."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_extraction

    Keep tweaking. :-)

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    Bitterness can come from a few things in an extraction.

    1. Grind is too fine and the pour slow, resulting in over extraction of bitter solids and caffeine.
    2. Brew temp is too high resulting in burnt bitter taste.
    3. Your machine brew path is dirty with a build up of rancid oils and coffee solids.

    Bitterness can be present in a really dark (end of 2nd crack+) roast but will be accompanied by smokey/ashy notes as well.
    One of the most bitter shots I've ever had was from a superauto office machine which dispensed the shot in about 5 seconds, but I was unable to sample the coffee in a different machine so, who knows?

    Blonding is bitter but obviously can't be the reason a shot is bitter if the brew hasn't been allowed to blonde. A small amount of coffee that is just beginning to blonde won't upset a decent pour.

    .....And I wouldn't be using "coffee beans delivered" as a source of information.
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    Thanks for the replies.

    My experimentation continues.

    What I am finding right now is that if I do a 1:2 extraction over 28 seconds there is a little bitterness at the end, and I can detect it in the latte too, especially at the start where crema is still present and not mixed with the milk as well.

    If I extend the extraction to around 33 seconds I get about a 1:2.7 ratio, but the bitterness goes away. However I can't help but feel the espresso is a little "watery".

    Perhaps I should try a coarser grind and shorter shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonj View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    My experimentation continues.

    What I am finding right now is that if I do a 1:2 extraction over 28 seconds there is a little bitterness at the end, and I can detect it in the latte too, especially at the start where crema is still present and not mixed with the milk as well.

    If I extend the extraction to around 33 seconds I get about a 1:2.7 ratio, but the bitterness goes away. However I can't help but feel the espresso is a little "watery".

    Perhaps I should try a coarser grind and shorter shot.
    G'day wilsonj - Jamie

    Try a longer shot and finer grind as well. If your grinder, machine and technique are all up to it you may be pleasantly surprised (especially if your are using a VST / naked p/f combo). I cannot recall too many people stating that Slayer have got it so wrong. Until the third wave and "more modern" ways of making coffee (mainly from the US) started using 1:2 ratios, a normale was traditionally about a 1:3.5 to 1:4 ratio. One "often posting stuff" US guy I know is using 28g baskets for one cup.

    Another issue - most bulk roasters have to roast more conservatively and the overall flavour drops dramatically. I have done the comparison a few times. Once I tried the same batch of Guatemalan beans from a 1Kg airbed roaster (probably the best roaster in Oz) and its 50Kg stablemate in the same company on the same day using the same grinder and the same basket and Linea grouphead. The bulk roast needed well over twice the dosage to get a similar quantity of flavour and couldn't match the quality of the flavour anyway. I suspect the US "everything scaled up" habit may be related to their propensity for enormous baskets and smaller ratios (disclosure - I actually have a 28g "quad basket" - however I have only used it for bulk espresso for cooking).

    That is why that 1Kg particular airbed has done hundreds of gold medal winning roasts for a number of other well known bulk roasting companies for their use in competitions. Reminds me of Bathhurst V8s - anyone who thinks the car you buy in a showroom has more than a superficial resemblance to the ones on the track is kidding themselves. BTW - that is also why small boutique roasters start with an enormous technical advantage over the big guys who service supermarkets - and how at least some of the big guys get their gold medals for that matter.

    When I was trained, I was told the caffeine dissolved later and that was why a shot went bitter after the 25 second "active pour time". Actually that is totally wrong and has lead to a whole pile of incorrect publications (including some posts by me until I reread my Illy). It turns out that caffeine is virtually gone within the 5 second mark and a (say) 15 second ristretto has had enough time to add enough low and sweet notes to end up on the sweet side of neutral*. By the time the shot blonds the balance is shifting again towards bitter as a whole pile of different (and unwanted) compounds start to dissolve and adversely swing the flavour back towards bitter.

    Add a whole pile of other issues like the quality and age of the roast (if it smells green, it is), the grinder's particle spread at your chosen setting (a poor grinder = nuked coffee beyond redemption), whether the grounds have time to oxidise (stale grounds - yum, where do I sign... for my garden), the flow rate of the espresso baskets (which I why I use VSTs, along with a lot of other experienced guys in the industry) plus the usual culprits of temperature, pressure and flow rate and there is no easy solution other than chasing the taste in the cup. Even then, that will change for every roast and even within every roast as it ages.

    TampIt

    neutral* My current cuppa is an Ethiopian Yirg: I measured it because I was still setting it up and just nailed it. Light roast, age 32 days (stopped smelling too green today) - 7.2g of grounds, 31g of coffee in the cup, 12 seconds of preinfusion followed by a 29 second pour using a Vario grinder, VST / naked p/f in my SB7000, negligible crema, gorgeous aftertaste at one hour and going smooth, strong and sweet. "That is why I do it".
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drwharris View Post
    Wow...nice reply. Straight to the sarcasm, I know everything and you can't possibly know what I know

    For those that care to read Commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy

    Diagnosis: When your espresso comes out tasting bitter, it usually means that the*extraction*or pour time is too long. Commonly, youíll see a pale yellow/white stream of coffee that wobbles and spirals towards the end of the shot.

    Remedy: Adjust your brew time. A good pour will be somewhere between 25 Ė 35 secs. Keep watch on the shot as it comes through and as soon as you see the coffee coming out in a light ďblondeĒ colour, stop the shot immediately. This is almost pure caffeine and caffeine tastes very bitter so you want to avoid this and stop the shot as soon as you see it start blonding. Most people make the mistake of trying to extract too much coffee out of a single coffee dose. If you want a strong coffee, get a bigger basket (22g Ė 28g) and keep the shot time within the ideal range. Donít worry, youíll still get your caffeine fix, it just wonít be as bitter.

    In the end, I don't particularly care what the composition of the blonding is, it's bitter and caused by over extracting. I've tested it and adjusted my extraction based on it.
    Ok, I managed to read that article before the link was removed. Itís clearly aimed at new Ďhome baristasí and is very simplistic. The OP is trying to take his espresso to the next level so this sort of basic stuff wonít really help him.

    And when it comes to the ď100% caffeineĒ statement that is just plain wrong. Coffee contains at least 850 volatile aromatic compounds, at least 40 of which are the main contributors to our sensory experience of coffee when consuming it. Itís been know for quite some time that caffeine has very little to do with the experience of bitterness in coffee. If you want to learn about this sort of stuff then spread your wings and do a bit of reading. Thereís heaps of info available online on sites such as Sweet Mariaís, Barista Hustle, Counter Culture Coffee, Coffee Review etc.

    Hereís some info on chlorogenic acids and other compounds in coffee that cause bitterness to get you started:


    ďMention coffee, and caffeine is the chemical compound name that immediately springs to mind. However, whilst caffeineís effects on the brain are well documented Ė it binds to adenosine receptors in the brain Ė it has relatively little impact when it comes to the taste of coffee. Coffee, as it turns out, is a cornucopia of chemical compounds that influence its taste; whilst some of these compounds are poorly characterised, one group of compounds about which plenty is known are the chlorogenic acids.

    Chlorogenic Acid-

    These compounds account for up to 8% of the composition of unroasted coffee beans. Deceptively enough, despite the name their structure doesnít contain any chlorine atoms Ė rather, it refers to the light green colour produced when these acids are oxidised. When coffee beans are roasted, these chlorogenic acids react to form a variety of different products, which can all affect the taste of the coffee.

    In medium to light coffee brews, the main source of bitterness is from chlorogenic acid lactones.
    In dark roasted coffees, the breakdown products of these chlorogenic acid lactones have an increasing effect on the bitterness of the flavour. These products are called phenylindanes, and their bitterness is harsher than that of the chlorogenic acid lactones Ė explaining, for example, the bitterness of espresso coffee.

    A final class of compounds, melanoidins, are also formed as byproducts of the roasting of coffee beans. They are formed during the Maillard reaction, a chemical reaction between proteins and sugars responsible for flavouring in many types of cooked foods. The melanoidins are very poorly characterised due to their complexity, and their chemical structures remain largely unknown, despite it being estimated that roasted coffee bean composition may contain up to 30% of these compounds. Very little is known about this class of compounds, but it is suspected that they could also have an impact upon the flavour of coffee.Ē
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    Id be aimig for 30 ml in around 30 seconds including the preinfusion because the coffee generally gushes once you;ve saturated the puck

    with 18g baskets you could possibly push the volume out a little bit, say to 40ml, but i dont think that you have enough dry weight in to justify more volume out without scolding or over extracting the coffee - unless you were to swap out your baskets for a bigger, say 22g, version

    taste and keeping an eye on the pour are easilly as importat as weights and measures

    cant begin to tell you how many coffees Ive had that have been expertly weighed and measured but which still tasted like dishwater or a bowl of fruit on steroids

    by all means use calibration to dial in and to find the sweet spot for your coffee, but for goodness sake dont let logistics replace good taste when it comes to the finer points of coffee making

    not so long ago baristas were rated on their ability to manually extract and pressure profile the coffee, now its all about weights and measures, cant wait for this latest trend to blow over and to be replaced by some expert artisan coffee making again...

    ACG
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    I consider weights and measures vital ... as reference points. There are enough variables that you need to anchor a couple before organising the next when you are learning. When that is right you can fiddle with the earlier ones again. Eventually one will have a zone around the sweet spot where you know from experience that one factor is a little different, and which to tweak in compensation.

    Regarding the "do you include pre-infusion" discussion, for my taste I found the answer to be yes. I time / watch the shot from the moment I initiate it, and get 25-30 mL in 25-27 seconds in a 2:1 mL to g ratio. This works well for me. If I decide to change that, I know where I am.

    My rationalisation for including pre-infusion (given it works for me) is that flavours start to be extracted the moment hot water hits the grounds, whether or not it is yet flowing into your cup.
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    Hi All,

    Thanks for the replies and comments. Just wrote a big post and lost it grrrr.

    So the short version.

    Was in Adelaide on Monday and had the chance to go to Fiefy's coffee shop. The lovely barista there was kind enough to talk with me ( wasn't too busy) and let me sample a couple espressos. They were smooth without the burning sensation I get at the end of mine. I attribute this to bitterness.

    Anyway now home I have been experimenting further and this is what I have come up with.

    19g in pf
    extraction temp 93C
    Time 26 seconds, no PI.
    Volume ~60ml 47grams

    This to me tastes quite nice. I even popped a little steamed milk I had left over on the top for a kind of pico latte and it was delicious.

    Here is a video I took of an extraction this morning. I might try and grind a little finer yet.

    https://youtu.be/B0GclhdIYZc
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    That shot looks pretty close to ideal mate, wouldn't change too much...

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    That shot looks pretty close to ideal mate, wouldn't change too much...

    Mal.
    Thanks Mal.

    Only thing that makes me think it could have run a little long was the stream started to twist a little, just before I stopped it. I thought this might be a sign of pushing through mostly water.

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Espresso taste, feedback on settings please

    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonj View Post
    Hi All,

    Thanks for the replies and comments. Just wrote a big post and lost it grrrr.

    So the short version.

    Was in Adelaide on Monday and had the chance to go to Fiefy's coffee shop. The lovely barista there was kind enough to talk with me ( wasn't too busy) and let me sample a couple espressos. They were smooth without the burning sensation I get at the end of mine. I attribute this to bitterness.

    Anyway now home I have been experimenting further and this is what I have come up with.

    19g in pf
    extraction temp 93C
    Time 26 seconds, no PI.
    Volume ~60ml 47grams

    This to me tastes quite nice. I even popped a little steamed milk I had left over on the top for a kind of pico latte and it was delicious.

    Here is a video I took of an extraction this morning. I might try and grind a little finer yet.

    https://youtu.be/B0GclhdIYZc
    Thatís a perfect example of why you canít always compare your results with other people, and also to make sure that at the end of it all you use taste to decide whether youíre happy with your shot. If I were to run a shot like that through my machine at home with the sort of coffee I usually use it would probably taste awful. Then again Iíve also had some very short and fast flowing shots that have tasted fantastic. Just keep doing what youíre doing - experiment with small adjustments to different variables (one variable at a time) and take note of what combinations give you the results you like. Nice work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    That’s a perfect example of why you can’t always compare your results with other people, and also to make sure that at the end of it all you use taste to decide whether you’re happy with your shot. If I were to run a shot like that through my machine at home with the sort of coffee I usually use it would probably taste awful. Then again I’ve also had some very short and fast flowing shots that have tasted fantastic. Just keep doing what you’re doing - experiment with small adjustments to different variables (one variable at a time) and take note of what combinations give you the results you like. Nice work.

    Thanks LeroyC. I've really enjoyed my coffee over the last couple days. I'll still keep playing a little but I'm pretty happy. Now I just need to get my latte art better!

    Incidentally, what sort of shot are you pulling ?

    One thing that does bother me, is I am using a Pullman 20-22 basket but only putting in 19g. Are there issues with under filling a basket ? I understand the need to use large baskets when you want a larger dose, but is there a good reason to go smaller when the dose reduces. I was considering going to a 17-19g.

    On a different note. I just purchased a Eureka Atom grinder and coming from a Breville grinder the grinds are so much more fluffy I can't fit more than 19g without stopping and distributing. I could grind 21g with the breville without touching the PF!

  27. #27
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonj View Post
    Thanks LeroyC. I've really enjoyed my coffee over the last couple days. I'll still keep playing a little but I'm pretty happy. Now I just need to get my latte art better!

    Incidentally, what sort of shot are you pulling ?

    One thing that does bother me, is I am using a Pullman 20-22 basket but only putting in 19g. Are there issues with under filling a basket ? I understand the need to use large baskets when you want a larger dose, but is there a good reason to go smaller when the dose reduces. I was considering going to a 17-19g.

    On a different note. I just purchased a Eureka Atom grinder and coming from a Breville grinder the grinds are so much more fluffy I can't fit more than 19g without stopping and distributing. I could grind 21g with the breville without touching the PF!
    My espresso shot most mornings goes very much along the lines of this morningís extraction which had the following variables:

    Dose- 21.5g
    Yield- 32g
    Total time- 32secs
    (Brew temp- 94deg)

    Iím using a Sunbeam EM6910 which gives a sort of pseudo pre-infusion (although itís interesting to see Scott Raoís results using a similar pre-infusion on the DE1) that takes about 4secs. I count this in the total time. First flow is usually seen at around 11secs. Basket is a La Marzocco. Not sure what itís nominal size is, but itís around 21g I think.

    Dosing 19g in a 20-22g Pullman basket is fine and if itís giving you good results Iíd stick to it. Hope this all helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    My espresso shot most mornings goes very much along the lines of this morning’s extraction which had the following variables:

    Dose- 21.5g
    Yield- 32g
    Total time- 32secs
    (Brew temp- 94deg)

    I’m using a Sunbeam EM6910 which gives a sort of pseudo pre-infusion (although it’s interesting to see Scott Rao’s results using a similar pre-infusion on the DE1) that takes about 4secs. I count this in the total time. First flow is usually seen at around 11secs. Basket is a La Marzocco. Not sure what it’s nominal size is, but it’s around 21g I think.

    Dosing 19g in a 20-22g Pullman basket is fine and if it’s giving you good results I’d stick to it. Hope this all helps.

    Wow, that is different. That's almost ristretto.

    That's a nice tulip avatar btw. Did you do that on the 6910 ?

  29. #29
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonj View Post
    Wow, that is different. That's almost ristretto.

    That's a nice tulip avatar btw. Did you do that on the 6910 ?
    Not really. A ristretto would have a yield of around 20-22g. The formula I use works really well for my coffee on my machine and is actually reasonably common in modern cafes now too.

    (Yes the latte was made on the Sunbeam. ;-P )
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Not really. A ristretto would have a yield of around 20-22g. The formula I use works really well for my coffee on my machine and is actually reasonably common in modern cafes now too.

    (Yes the latte was made on the Sunbeam. ;-P )
    Sounds like a syrupy shot anyway. What volume are you getting ?

    Well done on the art, it looks lovely!

  31. #31
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonj View Post
    Sounds like a syrupy shot anyway. What volume are you getting ?

    Well done on the art, it looks lovely!
    I donít measure volume cause itís basically meaningless. From past experience I would imagine it would be around 40ml.

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    Never go by volume or mass; just quality in the cup...

    Mal.

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    if you're drinking it with milk then volume is definitely a consideration as too much coffee overwhelms the milk and not enough and you can't taste it

    even so I wouldn't usually go past 40ml from 21.5g for home use, and more likely closer to 30-35ml as the tail end of a longer extraction just seems to produce bitterness combined with excess caffeine which just interferes with my ability to have another coffee !

    when I started my coffee journey I went around to all the best coffee places in Melbourne and tried their coffee, and those that I enjoyed I asked them how they produced certain results in the cup, which I then tried to reproduce either at work or at home

    then there's that 'aha' moment when you finally hit the sweet spot !

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by askthecoffeeguy View Post
    if you're drinking it with milk then volume is definitely a consideration as too much coffee overwhelms the milk and not enough and you can't taste it

    even so I wouldn't usually go past 40ml from 21.5g for home use, and more likely closer to 30-35ml as the tail end of a longer extraction just seems to produce bitterness combined with excess caffeine which just interferes with my ability to have another coffee !
    The point is that volume differs with the proportion of crema produced etc, whereas the mass of the extracted coffee does not. You are right when you say 'too much coffee overwhelms the milk', but measuring whether you have 'too much' coffee by reference to volume introduces a lot of noise to the estimation.

  35. #35
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by askthecoffeeguy View Post
    if you're drinking it with milk then volume is definitely a consideration as too much coffee overwhelms the milk and not enough and you can't taste it

    even so I wouldn't usually go past 40ml from 21.5g for home use, and more likely closer to 30-35ml as the tail end of a longer extraction just seems to produce bitterness combined with excess caffeine which just interferes with my ability to have another coffee !

    when I started my coffee journey I went around to all the best coffee places in Melbourne and tried their coffee, and those that I enjoyed I asked them how they produced certain results in the cup, which I then tried to reproduce either at work or at home

    then there's that 'aha' moment when you finally hit the sweet spot !
    Itís true that will affect the volume ratio of espresso to milk, but when you consider that the range it would vary across is only about 10ml and youíre making a drink that is anywhere from 150-300ml I donít think it would actually make much difference. What would make a bigger difference is the strength of the espresso and both strength and extraction are outcome variables of the mass ratio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    ... you’re making a drink that is anywhere from 150-300ml ...
    Is there a thread or poll somewhere about what people typically drink? I ask from curiosity, struck by the fact that our common milk coffees are 90-120 mL total (or grams, a bit more mL with foam on a capp) with my wife's occasional 150 mL an outside case.



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