Results 1 to 34 of 34
Like Tree34Likes
  • 2 Post By barri
  • 3 Post By NickNeinBar
  • 1 Post By Dimal
  • 5 Post By barri
  • 1 Post By simonsk8r
  • 2 Post By TampIt
  • 2 Post By simonsk8r
  • 1 Post By TampIt
  • 4 Post By simonsk8r
  • 2 Post By beensean
  • 1 Post By CafeLotta
  • 6 Post By luca
  • 4 Post By luca

Thread: what coffee ratio do u use ????

  1. #1
    Junior Member Blacktownbrew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    13

    what coffee ratio do u use ????

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    what ratio do u use? and with what kind of drink??
    I've been using 1:2.4
    20g in 48g out in 26seconds with a 7second pre infusion at 3bars..


    machine la marzocco gs3 MP and a mythos one grinder

  2. #2
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    13
    1:2.5
    16 in, 40 out.

    breville barista express.

  3. #3
    Junior Member Blacktownbrew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    13
    what beans do you use?
    how do you find that ratio?

    i use a brand called AKA COFFEE
    I've been trying all different ratios I'm going to give 1:1.8 for 30 sec a go to get some more sweet notes hmm i can't find the perfect sweet spot..

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Warragul, Vic
    Posts
    464
    1: 2 and a bit, that is, 19gms in 38 to 40gms out using the KJM type blend on a Rocket Giotto

    When dialing in use the numbers first and then adjust for taste. Too sour then a little finer. Too bitter then a bit coarser.
    Last edited by barri; 30th August 2018 at 08:28 PM.
    Dimal and Barry O'Speedwagon like this.

  5. #5
    Junior Member NickNeinBar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    8
    Hi, with my Rancilio Silvia: 15g in, 32g out, 26-28 seconds.
    I use very a freshly roasted Espresso blend direct from Mocha Coffee, Marrickville, Sydney.
    I grind with a San Marco SM92 (great efficient unit, but few people seem to talk about it on forums??).
    Oh boy, I drool in anticipation hours before preparing my shot!
    Dimal, gnoils and Blacktownbrew like this.

  6. #6
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,597
    Quote Originally Posted by NickNeinBar View Post
    I grind with a San Marco SM92 (great efficient unit, but few people seem to talk about it on forums??).
    LSM grinders are an excellent unit alright. Had one myself for a couple of years...
    I think they are probably more well known in Europe than here down-under, probably because of the enormous foothold that Mazzer has.

    Mal.
    NickNeinBar likes this.

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    13
    At the moment drinking Colombia beans from MannaBeans, medium or slightly darker roast I think.

    I start with the dose, and found that 17g or more make the puck stick to the shower screen. So I use 16g most of the time.

    I tried 1:2 ratio and I found that it is too little and strong for my liking losing the subtle flavors, but 1:3 is to much and watery. So found that I like 1:2.5 most. Been doing that ever since.

    What is your process with trying out the ratio? What beans are you using? What roast level? Do you play with grind/dose or just the ratio?

    Sy


    Quote Originally Posted by Blacktownbrew View Post
    what beans do you use?
    how do you find that ratio?

    i use a brand called AKA COFFEE
    I've been trying all different ratios I'm going to give 1:1.8 for 30 sec a go to get some more sweet notes hmm i can't find the perfect sweet spot..

  8. #8
    Junior Member Blacktownbrew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    13
    @gnoils how do i tag you ???


    beans from aka coffee i think there a medium to darker roast..
    so I've locked in the 20g in
    i play around with grind to suit ratio i had 1:1.8 today was really good

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    13
    You mean like this? I just click Reply With Quote.

    Nice! What sort of flavor profile do you look for?


    Quote Originally Posted by Blacktownbrew View Post
    @gnoils how do i tag you ???


    beans from aka coffee i think there a medium to darker roast..
    so I've locked in the 20g in
    i play around with grind to suit ratio i had 1:1.8 today was really good

  10. #10
    Junior Member Blacktownbrew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    13
    oh yeah thanks just a well balanced with lots of sweet floral notes
    Quote Originally Posted by gnoils View Post
    You mean like this? I just click Reply With Quote.

    Nice! What sort of flavor profile do you look for?

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Warragul, Vic
    Posts
    464
    I reckon I've tried every method of dosing /timing/pulling shots from leveling using Stockleth to Scott Calaghan/s dosing tools to dose and collapse to 30/60mls in 30 seconds etc etc etc and I find brew ratio gives the best and most consistent shots. For those unfamiliar with this method I'll give my run down on how I do it.

    I start with a 18gm VST basket and VST normally recommend +- 1 gm so I settled on 19gms as that seems to provide a suitable clearance. I use a naked group handle to give me more room between scales, cups and group handle. With the scales under the cup I tare it then pull the shot and start the timer and stop it when I get to about 38 to 40gms and note the time. If its about 25 to 30 seconds then I normally make small adjustments to taste as mentioned in my post above. If its too quick or too slow then I adjust the grinder. finer or coarser. How did I arrive at 1:2? It is the recommended starting point for most well balanced espresso coffees. Some roasters even provide a ratio recipe with their bean types but most of them are around 1:2 and after hours of experimenting I found this ratio is about right for my taste buds. What happens to volume with this technique? The old guideline used to be roughly 30mls in 30 seconds for a single and 60ml in 30 seconds for a double. With brew ratio the volume takes care of itself and is fairly irrelevant. I sometimes for curiosity sake put 2 shot glasses down and keep an eye on the volume and it's often close to the those volumes anyway but in terms of taste volume doesn't seem to matter with this method. Keep in mind that taste is everything. The numbers, however, provide a great starting point.

    So if you haven't tried dialing in using the brew ratio I encourage you to give it a go. it gives great consistent results.

    EDIT ... This video really helped me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7...s&pbjreload=10
    Dimal, simonsk8r, topshot and 2 others like this.

  12. #12
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    I reckon I've tried every method of dosing /timing/pulling shots from leveling using Stockleth to Scott Calaghan/s dosing tools to dose and collapse to 30/60mls in 30 seconds etc etc etc and I find brew ratio gives the best and most consistent shots. For those unfamiliar with this method I'll give my run down on how I do it.

    I start with a 18gm VST basket and VST normally recommend +- 1 gm so I settled on 19gms as that seems to provide a suitable clearance. I use a naked group handle to give me more room between scales, cups and group handle. With the scales under the cup I tare it then pull the shot and start the timer and stop it when I get to about 38 to 40gms and note the time. If its about 25 to 30 seconds then I normally make small adjustments to taste as mentioned in my post above. If its too quick or too slow then I adjust the grinder. finer or coarser. How did I arrive at 1:2? It is the recommended starting point for most well balanced espresso coffees. Some roasters even provide a ratio recipe with their bean types but most of them are around 1:2 and after hours of experimenting I found this ratio is about right for my taste buds. What happens to volume with this technique? The old guideline used to be roughly 30mls in 30 seconds for a single and 60ml in 30 seconds for a double. With brew ratio the volume takes care of itself and is fairly irrelevant. I sometimes for curiosity sake put 2 shot glasses down and keep an eye on the volume and it's often close to the those volumes anyway but in terms of taste volume doesn't seem to matter with this method. Keep in mind that taste is everything. The numbers, however, provide a great starting point.

    So if you haven't tried dialing in using the brew ratio I encourage you to give it a go. it gives great consistent results.

    EDIT ... This video really helped me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7...s&pbjreload=10
    Really great post barri, well said. Yeah I often aim at 1:2 as a starting point and alter accordingly. Every bean seems to like something different, and some beans I can only get incredibly tasty results from a slightly lower 1:1.75 or so. Have never really been able to get a decent brew from the much higher ratios like 1:2.5, and I have a feeling it may all be related to your own setup and what works best for it (and your preferences).

    There's also the big importance of the quality of the shot extraction. I've hit a perfect 1:2 ratio in a good time, and the shot looked horrible in the pour and didn't taste great. So puck prep is also a big factor. You can get the right numbers but if the coffee wasn't distributed well, tamped lopsided, knocked the portafilter etc, it won't extract properly.

    Ah and that video's great. Admittedly I need to watch it a few times as I got a bit lost throughout it at times hehe. But essentially keep the dose fixed and only tinker with grind/time I think it states..
    barri likes this.

  13. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    10
    We’ve basically moved towards ristretto flat whites. Giving complex flavour with allpress beans.

    18g for 20g yield in 27 sec.


    Would love to have several grinders set up to compare profiles side by side!

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacktownbrew View Post
    what ratio do u use? and with what kind of drink??
    I've been using 1:2.4
    20g in 48g out in 26seconds with a 7second pre infusion at 3bars..


    machine la marzocco gs3 MP and a mythos one grinder
    Same set up as you.

    I go 21g dose in and 30-35g yield out at 6 bar 30-35 secs. Gives the heavier mouthfeel I prefer. Allpress Supremo blend.

    With single origins when I occasionally buy them I'll usually go closer to 1:2 ratio.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,338
    FWIW, the traditional Italian original ratios were (and still are) 7g to 30mls (note: g to mls, takes crazy Italians to mix units) given well roasted beans. Allowing for crema, that is probably about a 1:3.5 or 1:4 ratio by weight. That ratio is for a well balanced shot that displays regional characteristics fully.

    Why the move to 1:2 (i.e. a traditional ristretto, low notes only?)? My take - bulk roasting drops up to 75% of the flavour from the bean. Why? You have to roast more conservatively and flavour quantity plummets and to a lesser extent flavour quality drops. All the good roasters I use do not do massive bulk roasts. As an aside, I reckon that is why a lot of meticulous home roasters are closer to a 1:4 ratio - way more flavour is accessible if youroast small quantities in a quality roaster.

    My preferred shot is a well balanced 1:4 if the roast is good enough. If it isn't, I work my way downwards to 1:2 - and by then the beans have lost all regional quirks and really need pallbearers more than an espresso machine.

    TampIt
    topshot and beensean like this.

  16. #16
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Woodend, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,199
    For my usual ‘espresso’ roasts when making a shot for my morning cappuccino I’m pretty close to 1:1.5 in about 30-35secs. This is a sweet spot on a Sunbeam EM6910, but isn’t exactly what I’d do on other machines. If I’m making a single origin espresso and the roast is potentially a touch lighter I’ll be closer to 1:2, or even slightly over at 1:2.2ish.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    fairly static
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    FWIW, the traditional Italian original ratios were (and still are) 7g to 30mls (note: g to mls, takes crazy Italians to mix units) given well roasted beans. Allowing for crema, that is probably about a 1:3.5 or 1:4 ratio by weight. That ratio is for a well balanced shot that displays regional characteristics fully.
    ---
    My preferred shot is a well balanced 1:4 if the roast is good enough. If it isn't, I work my way downwards to 1:2 - and by then the beans have lost all regional quirks and really need pallbearers more than an espresso machine.
    My balance. I weigh beans and shot, getting about a 1:3.75 ratio in about 25-27 seconds.

    I drink one, maybe two, coffees a day. A good espresso is a treat, like a bit of chocolate, with tea the more common drink in our house. Those may influence my preference.

    I find also that guests, the majority of the population not being coffee snobs, are very happy with the style I make, regarding me as some sort of barista. I am learning some modest latte art to maintain the deception.

  18. #18
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    FWIW, the traditional Italian original ratios were (and still are) 7g to 30mls (note: g to mls, takes crazy Italians to mix units) given well roasted beans. Allowing for crema, that is probably about a 1:3.5 or 1:4 ratio by weight. That ratio is for a well balanced shot that displays regional characteristics fully.

    Why the move to 1:2 (i.e. a traditional ristretto, low notes only?)? My take - bulk roasting drops up to 75% of the flavour from the bean. Why? You have to roast more conservatively and flavour quantity plummets and to a lesser extent flavour quality drops. All the good roasters I use do not do massive bulk roasts. As an aside, I reckon that is why a lot of meticulous home roasters are closer to a 1:4 ratio - way more flavour is accessible if youroast small quantities in a quality roaster.

    My preferred shot is a well balanced 1:4 if the roast is good enough. If it isn't, I work my way downwards to 1:2 - and by then the beans have lost all regional quirks and really need pallbearers more than an espresso machine.

    TampIt
    Hmmm interesting thoughts.. have never heard this before, ie that 1:4 ratio accesses more flavour, and also that bulk roasting drops the flavour majorly...

    Pulling that much volume of water through coffee I don't think my shots would taste that great.. and I roast pretty small batches. Just seems like quite a fast shot would result in under extraction (sour, watery), but perhaps it really depends on one's particular roaster, batch size, grinder, machine etc.. unless you run the shot at a normal flow rate and then keep running until you hit 1:4, which to me would be overextracted and bitter then.. interesting though, will have to have an experiment.

    1:4 feels closer to a lungo than espresso (again, something a few have had success with and prefer, but I've tried them and can't get an overly tasty brew...)
    Dimal and chippy like this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,338
    Just to make it a bit clearer, my preference is usually for a well balanced cuppa. I suspect, like most CS'r's, I also like a bit of variety on occasion. I range between Turkish, my modded stirrer plunger (think aeropress, with cleaner & clearer flavour which highlights lighter notes), my Rommelsbachers (high grade stainless steel electronic version of a Carmencita / moka pot), cold drip / steep or deliberately tinkering ratios in my espresso machines. As long as the end result is enjoyable it doesn't really matter.

    I should have added that if I have to use "well roasted but poorer quality beans" (not a common mix in my world) for some reason then I tend to go for the chocolate low notes of a 1:2 ristretto to make something acceptable out of it. Also, some of my friends prefer that style of coffee anyway - and I always try to make it to their tastes.

    I just feel that there is a trending school of "coffee aficionado thought" (particularly in the US) that everyone needs to overdose an 18 to 20g basket and run it short to make a "proper coffee for one" - that I cannot agree with given quality beans (aged properly), a good grinder and a good espresso machine.

    Enjoy your cuppa - that is the only rule

    TampIt
    topshot likes this.

  20. #20
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    MortalCoil
    Posts
    424
    Video of a 4:1 shot from 7g of beans would be cool.

  21. #21
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    MortalCoil
    Posts
    424
    Oh, BTW - 19g in a 18g VST, single dosed (and thoroughly swept out) and 34 to 40g in 30-40secs out, dependant on the bean permutations etc. Run at 6.5bar.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,601
    For 2 lattes I grind 20 grams which will deliver 25 ml of coffee into each glass under the twin spout portafilter. So 50 mls total. Sometimes a maximum 60 mls. I aim for a 25 seconds minimum extraction, 32 ish seconds maximum.

    Since I use the volumetric touchpads, if the extraction is a gusher or a trickler the grind needs adjusting. Not the volume. The volume stays constant according to what I've programmed the touchpads to do.

    I suspect the practice of cutting shots before they go yellow is a hangover from manual lever days? Dunno, but no point having a fully automatic if you don't use it as such.

    For espressos, the same basket is filled with 18 grams to deliver 25 ml from the twin spouts but this time into just ONE espresso cup or double-walled glass. In the same time. Maybe I'd like to try for 20 gram loads but I suspect the mound will bridge the space between basket and burrs on the Baratza grinder...
    and spew the excess everywhere too.

    At the moment, coffee for lattes is ground by the Cunill Space grinder, and for espressos by the Baratza.

  23. #23
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    8
    Breville BES900
    1:2
    18 in 36 out
    time flucutates depending on age of bean between 28-32 seconds

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    139
    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    I start with a 18gm VST basket and VST normally recommend +- 1 gm so I settled on 19gms as that seems to provide a suitable clearance. I use a naked group handle to give me more room between scales, cups and group handle. With the scales under the cup I tare it then pull the shot and start the timer and stop it when I get to about 38 to 40gms and note the time. If its about 25 to 30 seconds then I normally make small adjustments to taste as mentioned in my post above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7...s&pbjreload=10
    Thanks for the link! I'm resolved to go quantitative in my onward and upward journey, and have just acquired the necessary equipment (brewista smart scale and tiana dosing cup). But I have a very noobie question I am almost embarrassed to ask after years making home espresso. I haven't however been able to find the answer.

    Does the 22-30s timed 'optimum' extraction we are supposed to be aiming for start from when you pull the lever up/press the start button (ie does it include the preinfusion on an E61 type machine?) OR from when the first drop of gold hits the cup?

    (Perhaps) naively I always have assumed the former, as my Profitec has a shot timer. However the Brewista has a mode (mode 5) which tares out the cup and starts the timer when the first drop lands.

    So which is it?

  25. #25
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by coolie21 View Post
    Thanks for the link! I'm resolved to go quantitative in my onward and upward journey, and have just acquired the necessary equipment (brewista smart scale and tiana dosing cup). But I have a very noobie question I am almost embarrassed to ask after years making home espresso. I haven't however been able to find the answer.

    Does the 22-30s timed 'optimum' extraction we are supposed to be aiming for start from when you pull the lever up/press the start button (ie does it include the preinfusion on an E61 type machine?) OR from when the first drop of gold hits the cup?

    (Perhaps) naively I always have assumed the former, as my Profitec has a shot timer. However the Brewista has a mode (mode 5) which tares out the cup and starts the timer when the first drop lands.

    So which is it?
    G'day! Ah nah don't be embarrassed to ask, I think it takes courage and willingness to learn by asking .

    Most people it seems time from the moment you pull the lever/start the shot as that's pretty much (roughly) the moment that water comes into contact with the coffee and it's the moment that extraction starts. To me personally it doesn't make sense to time when the first drop hits the cup, as the coffee is already extracting, so all you'd be timing is the time for the cup to fill to the appropriate amount. And it could take a little longer depending on a few factors. To me the time is always brew/extraction time.

    But honestly I don't think it really matters too much in the end! As long as what you're doing is consistent, then you can go by your way of doing things, and alter any variables you need to to alter the most important factor: taste in the cup!

    (And pre-infusers will have to chime in, not sure of their timing )

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    fairly static
    Posts
    197
    I do not think there is a right and wrong; whatever suits you. I formerly timed the entire shot for the reason given by simonsk8r. The coffee was good. After I acquired a shot scale I started a Timestick when I pulled the lever and compared that with the shot scale result when I turned it off. Their times were highly correlated though different, so now I use only one having rescaled my thinking to the new measure. The coffee is great, but that is to do with the new machine and grinder because timing is not actually different.

    Taste the coffee.
    simonsk8r and coolie21 like this.

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    143
    May be a bit of a generalisation but I've found the better the grinder machine combo the lower the ratio for a similar result, possibly due to more efficient extraction. Domestic machines seem to run out to 2.5:1 more often.

    Just an observation.

  28. #28
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Melbourne, Vic, Aust.
    Posts
    970
    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    An "advanced coffee making lecture" video from the Barista Hustle guys (also from your referenced video link) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lPGf1gM9nA

    Quite long and starts off slow but I found it interesting nonetheless. Probably some concepts that not all will agree with but the intent of their "research/experiments" is covered in the Q and A at the end of the video.
    simonsk8r likes this.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,913
    I did an exercise this morning to try to answer a guy's question about body on the DE1 machine on HB. I didn't really do that successfully, but it did really illustrate the tension between body and flavour, so it might be useful to discuss here ...

    First, we need to talk about some terms. "Body" could mean viscosity or strength. I'm using them as viscosity is more about the physical sensation of thickness, whereas strength is more about how much stuff is dissolved in a given volume of liquid. Both will usually coincide, but you could probably have a more viscous coffee at a given strength if you had more emulsified oils and trapped gasses; eg. if you had a shot of monsooned malabar and robusta. Flavour is something that I'm using inconsistently with how I usually use it to kind of cover flavour, aroma and extraction, since they all more or less coincide. Extraction is, again, the percentage of stuff that dissolves from the ground coffee to make the espresso (eg. 22% of the ground coffee). Strength is the percentage of dissolved stuff in the liquid that you drink (eg. 10% of the espresso beverage).

    In the above senses, body is always good and more is always better. Flavour can be good or bad; more is not necessarily better. You want to increase flavour and extraction until it tastes bad.

    We get the highest extraction per unit volume right at the beginning of the shot and it tapers off after that. So once you get to a certain point, you have to choose between flavour and body, since the liquid carrying the additional extraction will have less dissolved in it and therefore will dilute the resultant espresso. So you need to choose between flavour and body. What you choose depends on your personal preference.

    The main beef that I have with threads like this is that readers get the impression that there is some general ratio that's the "best". It's not one size fits all. You have to chose the best ratio based on your taste preferences and your coffee.

    So I'll return to my example from this morning - to investigate the question for the guy from HB, I made a 2:1 ratio shot and I caught the next 0.5 in a separate shot.

    The 2:1 shot was 22.1% extraction and 11.0% strength. The next 0.5 (ie. the tail end of the first shot that I caught separately) was 1.6% extraction and 3.0% strength. The 0.5 tasted great! This coffee is a really great new crop Kenyan that has been roasted really well and the shot - even the separate tail, which we usually expect to be fairly bland - was overflowing with blackberry and blackcurrant. So I tipped it back in. The numbers worked out that the combine 2.5:1 shot had 23.7% extraction (great; tonnes of flavour), but 9.3% strength. So a ~15% decrease in strength and a ~7% increase in extraction.

    In this scenario, the green would have been graded at at least 88 points on the SCA scale and it achieved a very high price at the auctions in Kenya. Under those grading systems, "body" is about 10% of the score. In other words, you're paying for flavour. It makes no sense to me to spend that money and then leave flavour sitting unextracted in the puck. I want every drop of the deliciousness that I can squeeze out and I don't care about body.

    This sort of underscores the point about picking the right extraction for the coffee in front of you. If you had, say, a brazillian natural or pulped natural that was low acid, sweet and peanutty, it's probably not going to score well on the SCA scale, but if you like low acid, big bodied, sweet espresso - and plenty of people do - then you might be very happy to leave some flavour in the puck to maximise the body.

    Of course, all of this also underscores the point about selecting coffee to achieve the result that you want. There are plenty of commercial roasters that seem to feel the pressure to offer single origin espresso from all of the cool origins and also seem to feel that their customers want everything to be low acid. If you're a coffee roastery or a customer that's craving a low acid, big bodied shot and you're unhappy that your expensive Kenyan auction lot coffee has a lot of acidity, for example, I have no sympathy for you. Just go and buy the cheaper brazillian coffee that you'll actually enjoy (and if it's really cheap, maybe get more money paid through to the farmer if you're a commercial roaster or donate some money somewhere useful if you're a consumer). It's OK.
    Dimal, matth3wh, simonsk8r and 3 others like this.

  30. #30
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Quote Originally Posted by luca View Post
    I did an exercise this morning to try to answer a guy's question about body on the DE1 machine on HB. I didn't really do that successfully, but it did really illustrate the tension between body and flavour, so it might be useful to discuss here ...

    First, we need to talk about some terms. "Body" could mean viscosity or strength. I'm using them as viscosity is more about the physical sensation of thickness, whereas strength is more about how much stuff is dissolved in a given volume of liquid. Both will usually coincide, but you could probably have a more viscous coffee at a given strength if you had more emulsified oils and trapped gasses; eg. if you had a shot of monsooned malabar and robusta. Flavour is something that I'm using inconsistently with how I usually use it to kind of cover flavour, aroma and extraction, since they all more or less coincide. Extraction is, again, the percentage of stuff that dissolves from the ground coffee to make the espresso (eg. 22% of the ground coffee). Strength is the percentage of dissolved stuff in the liquid that you drink (eg. 10% of the espresso beverage).

    In the above senses, body is always good and more is always better. Flavour can be good or bad; more is not necessarily better. You want to increase flavour and extraction until it tastes bad.

    We get the highest extraction per unit volume right at the beginning of the shot and it tapers off after that. So once you get to a certain point, you have to choose between flavour and body, since the liquid carrying the additional extraction will have less dissolved in it and therefore will dilute the resultant espresso. So you need to choose between flavour and body. What you choose depends on your personal preference.

    The main beef that I have with threads like this is that readers get the impression that there is some general ratio that's the "best". It's not one size fits all. You have to chose the best ratio based on your taste preferences and your coffee.

    So I'll return to my example from this morning - to investigate the question for the guy from HB, I made a 2:1 ratio shot and I caught the next 0.5 in a separate shot.

    The 2:1 shot was 22.1% extraction and 11.0% strength. The next 0.5 (ie. the tail end of the first shot that I caught separately) was 1.6% extraction and 3.0% strength. The 0.5 tasted great! This coffee is a really great new crop Kenyan that has been roasted really well and the shot - even the separate tail, which we usually expect to be fairly bland - was overflowing with blackberry and blackcurrant. So I tipped it back in. The numbers worked out that the combine 2.5:1 shot had 23.7% extraction (great; tonnes of flavour), but 9.3% strength. So a ~15% decrease in strength and a ~7% increase in extraction.

    In this scenario, the green would have been graded at at least 88 points on the SCA scale and it achieved a very high price at the auctions in Kenya. Under those grading systems, "body" is about 10% of the score. In other words, you're paying for flavour. It makes no sense to me to spend that money and then leave flavour sitting unextracted in the puck. I want every drop of the deliciousness that I can squeeze out and I don't care about body.

    This sort of underscores the point about picking the right extraction for the coffee in front of you. If you had, say, a brazillian natural or pulped natural that was low acid, sweet and peanutty, it's probably not going to score well on the SCA scale, but if you like low acid, big bodied, sweet espresso - and plenty of people do - then you might be very happy to leave some flavour in the puck to maximise the body.

    Of course, all of this also underscores the point about selecting coffee to achieve the result that you want. There are plenty of commercial roasters that seem to feel the pressure to offer single origin espresso from all of the cool origins and also seem to feel that their customers want everything to be low acid. If you're a coffee roastery or a customer that's craving a low acid, big bodied shot and you're unhappy that your expensive Kenyan auction lot coffee has a lot of acidity, for example, I have no sympathy for you. Just go and buy the cheaper brazillian coffee that you'll actually enjoy (and if it's really cheap, maybe get more money paid through to the farmer if you're a commercial roaster or donate some money somewhere useful if you're a consumer). It's OK.
    Incredibly informative post, thanks for that mate. Yeah there's no one size fits all, but good starting points for people new to coffee for sure.

    Really interesting about the balance between body and flavour, and how there can be a bit of a compromise. I guess it's a good idea to extract a shot to get more body, taste it, then try a shot which has higher extraction and taste that, and decide which you like better.

    I'm a bit both, I love great body in a coffee, but yeah I'm also aiming to maximize all the flavour that can be extracted from a coffee. Especially coffees that are jam packed full of flavours, wanna capitalise on that!

    In terms of your experiment, that was really interesting.. what would you say is the best way to work with this, to extract a coffee say 1:2 within a certain reasonable time period (eg 30s), then pull another shot without changing dose or grind and just let it run longer and longer for subsequent shots until it doesn't taste great?

    I think Barista Hustle recommend locking in dose and yield and working with only changing grind initially.

    And I think in their espresso recipe vid they essentially say to extract as much as you can until it goes bad, then back off. Just wondering if time/length of shot is a good way to explore this...

    I had to watch that vid a few times to get the general gist of what it meant...

  31. #31
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,711
    For a double espresso or a base for cappuccino I'm looking for around 1:2, 18 grams in approx 40 mls out.

    For a lungo 5:1, 18 grams in approx 90 mls out.

    This is using a Mazzer Mini with a Bezzera Domus Galatea.

    NB: I use grams in mls out, have been strongly influenced by crazy Italians.
    Ciao.jpg

  32. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,913
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Incredibly informative post, thanks for that mate. Yeah there's no one size fits all, but good starting points for people new to coffee for sure.

    Really interesting about the balance between body and flavour, and how there can be a bit of a compromise. I guess it's a good idea to extract a shot to get more body, taste it, then try a shot which has higher extraction and taste that, and decide which you like better.

    I'm a bit both, I love great body in a coffee, but yeah I'm also aiming to maximize all the flavour that can be extracted from a coffee. Especially coffees that are jam packed full of flavours, wanna capitalise on that!

    In terms of your experiment, that was really interesting.. what would you say is the best way to work with this, to extract a coffee say 1:2 within a certain reasonable time period (eg 30s), then pull another shot without changing dose or grind and just let it run longer and longer for subsequent shots until it doesn't taste great?

    I think Barista Hustle recommend locking in dose and yield and working with only changing grind initially.

    And I think in their espresso recipe vid they essentially say to extract as much as you can until it goes bad, then back off. Just wondering if time/length of shot is a good way to explore this...

    I had to watch that vid a few times to get the general gist of what it meant...
    I sort of let your question gnaw away in the back of my mind for a little bit.

    I think it all basically ends up boiling down to (a) try a lot of different things and (b) do the thing that you enjoy most.

    It's worth remembering that Matt's stuff is with a view to being used commercially, where efficiency is really important and where there's real money on the line. So let's say that you use 20g today and extract at 18%, you're getting 3.6g of dissolved stuff in the cup, which is what's flavouring your drinks. So if you can extract at 25% instead, then you only need to use 14.4g to get that same 3.6g dissolved to flavour your lattes or whatever. So you're going to use like 25% less coffee. In other words, if you're using 50kg per week, you'll save like 12.5kg per week. That's a lot of money over a year, whatever your wholesale price is. At home, yeah, being efficient might save some money, but the money incentive is probably a bit less. (Incidentally, this clearly demonstrates that coffee roasters that sell wholesale have a pretty compelling incentive to roast in a way that tastes better at lower extraction percentages.)

    Personally, I think that what's sort of more important than all of this is to buy green coffee that is suitable for what you want to achieve in the cup. Buying something like a super high scoring geisha and roasting it to emphasise body is a bit like buying fish sold for sushi and cooking it to try to get it to taste like steak. If you want body, buy green coffee that inherently has high body.

    You can sort of chase your tail a lot in the world of coffee, so I think it's worth taking a few steps throughout your journey.

    First, you need to get your basic puck prep, etc, down pat. Just pick something; anything; get your stopwatch and scales and methodically get to doing everything repeatably. Probably just go to your favourite cafe, buy whatever they have and try to mimic what they are doing. They'll tell you.

    Second, once you can make a bunch of shots in a row that are basically identical, use that same coffee that you are familiar with to taste different extremes. It probably does make sense to just adjust the grind to start off with because coffee is an unending series of variables and if you adjust grind, you are adjusting fewer variables. For example, if you change dose, then you are changing the headspace above the puck, which seems to have its own impact on everything. Equally, for many machines, if they have a low pressure preinfusion type thing, that's probably fixed at a certain volume, so that volume will be proportionally more or less when you change the dose (eg. if you have a machine with a preinfusion chamber that relieves pressure, then the pressure will always ramp up after the fixed volume of water pushes the spring to its main brew pressure position). Make sure to (a) purge sufficient coffee that you are truly on a different grind setting and (b) clean the group head and portafilter so that that doesn't influence your results.

    Third, once you work out your preferences from the second step, you can use that as your starting point for trying different coffees and you should routinely check in at the opposite end of the extraction spectrum to see if your opinions have changed or if you prefer different things for different coffees.

    Of course, you may need to also consider brew temp as a different variable. Let's not get into that now.

    Personally, I don't actually think of it in these terms; I just sort of have found that I tend not to like dark roasts at fine grind settings and light roasts at coarse grind settings, so I kind of pick my approach based on grind setting. My baskets also need a progressively coarser grind as I go up in basket size, so I tend to have a bit of a think about what I want to spit out. I like to drink americanos/long blacks at high dilutions, so I don't need much espresso volume. Happily, this means that I can use a small basket and a very fine grind and a light roast very easily for the volume of cups and drinks I like to make. If, for some reason, I'm using full fat milk, then I probably want as much volume in the cup, which necessitates a larger basket with a coarser grind and maybe a lower extraction. But if I'm making milk drinks, I tend to prefer using low fat milks that get out of the way of the coffee flavour a lot more, so I can drink, for example, a 24% extraction from 15g instead of an 18% extraction from 20g. Again, this means that properly developed light roasts work very well for me. I absolutely don't subscribe to the theory that milk can hide bad shots; I like having milk get out of the way of coffee flavours and forcing me to use good shots. Personally, I think the highwire act of espresso is making a milk drink that shows all of the flavour that you can get from a coffee in a cupping bowl. I'm still very much experimenting with shot ratios on my setup; I can get very high extractions from low extraction ratio shots; it's still new to me and I'm still learning about it.

    Sorry, that was sort of a ramble around the topic, but I hope there was something useful in there.
    Dimal, matth3wh, simonsk8r and 1 others like this.

  33. #33
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,597
    Great info as always Luca...

    Mal.

  34. #34
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    1,046
    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by luca View Post
    I sort of let your question gnaw away in the back of my mind for a little bit.

    I think it all basically ends up boiling down to (a) try a lot of different things and (b) do the thing that you enjoy most.

    It's worth remembering that Matt's stuff is with a view to being used commercially, where efficiency is really important and where there's real money on the line. So let's say that you use 20g today and extract at 18%, you're getting 3.6g of dissolved stuff in the cup, which is what's flavouring your drinks. So if you can extract at 25% instead, then you only need to use 14.4g to get that same 3.6g dissolved to flavour your lattes or whatever. So you're going to use like 25% less coffee. In other words, if you're using 50kg per week, you'll save like 12.5kg per week. That's a lot of money over a year, whatever your wholesale price is. At home, yeah, being efficient might save some money, but the money incentive is probably a bit less. (Incidentally, this clearly demonstrates that coffee roasters that sell wholesale have a pretty compelling incentive to roast in a way that tastes better at lower extraction percentages.)

    Personally, I think that what's sort of more important than all of this is to buy green coffee that is suitable for what you want to achieve in the cup. Buying something like a super high scoring geisha and roasting it to emphasise body is a bit like buying fish sold for sushi and cooking it to try to get it to taste like steak. If you want body, buy green coffee that inherently has high body.

    You can sort of chase your tail a lot in the world of coffee, so I think it's worth taking a few steps throughout your journey.

    First, you need to get your basic puck prep, etc, down pat. Just pick something; anything; get your stopwatch and scales and methodically get to doing everything repeatably. Probably just go to your favourite cafe, buy whatever they have and try to mimic what they are doing. They'll tell you.

    Second, once you can make a bunch of shots in a row that are basically identical, use that same coffee that you are familiar with to taste different extremes. It probably does make sense to just adjust the grind to start off with because coffee is an unending series of variables and if you adjust grind, you are adjusting fewer variables. For example, if you change dose, then you are changing the headspace above the puck, which seems to have its own impact on everything. Equally, for many machines, if they have a low pressure preinfusion type thing, that's probably fixed at a certain volume, so that volume will be proportionally more or less when you change the dose (eg. if you have a machine with a preinfusion chamber that relieves pressure, then the pressure will always ramp up after the fixed volume of water pushes the spring to its main brew pressure position). Make sure to (a) purge sufficient coffee that you are truly on a different grind setting and (b) clean the group head and portafilter so that that doesn't influence your results.

    Third, once you work out your preferences from the second step, you can use that as your starting point for trying different coffees and you should routinely check in at the opposite end of the extraction spectrum to see if your opinions have changed or if you prefer different things for different coffees.

    Of course, you may need to also consider brew temp as a different variable. Let's not get into that now.

    Personally, I don't actually think of it in these terms; I just sort of have found that I tend not to like dark roasts at fine grind settings and light roasts at coarse grind settings, so I kind of pick my approach based on grind setting. My baskets also need a progressively coarser grind as I go up in basket size, so I tend to have a bit of a think about what I want to spit out. I like to drink americanos/long blacks at high dilutions, so I don't need much espresso volume. Happily, this means that I can use a small basket and a very fine grind and a light roast very easily for the volume of cups and drinks I like to make. If, for some reason, I'm using full fat milk, then I probably want as much volume in the cup, which necessitates a larger basket with a coarser grind and maybe a lower extraction. But if I'm making milk drinks, I tend to prefer using low fat milks that get out of the way of the coffee flavour a lot more, so I can drink, for example, a 24% extraction from 15g instead of an 18% extraction from 20g. Again, this means that properly developed light roasts work very well for me. I absolutely don't subscribe to the theory that milk can hide bad shots; I like having milk get out of the way of coffee flavours and forcing me to use good shots. Personally, I think the highwire act of espresso is making a milk drink that shows all of the flavour that you can get from a coffee in a cupping bowl. I'm still very much experimenting with shot ratios on my setup; I can get very high extractions from low extraction ratio shots; it's still new to me and I'm still learning about it.

    Sorry, that was sort of a ramble around the topic, but I hope there was something useful in there.
    Awesome, thanks very much Luca for the very informative reply, got alot out of that . I guess experimenting is the name of the game and it obviously depends on the coffee being used hey.

    Gonna tinker with time of shot as a variable more, to extract as much as I can just before it goes bad hehe.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •