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Thread: Coffee shots channeling..

  1. #51
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    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Maybe someone can drop in on your setup with a different grinder? This would go along way to narrowing things down.
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  2. #52
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    Hi Gmeddy, I have never used a convex Tamper,but remember several threads years ago knocking convex tampers: they can cause donut pours as per video 1. Might be worth trying a flat based tamper. John

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    Quote Originally Posted by chippy View Post
    Hi Gmeddy, I have never used a convex Tamper,but remember several threads years ago knocking convex tampers: they can cause donut pours as per video 1. Might be worth trying a flat based tamper. John
    Yeah my tamper is a Big Step flat based tamper. Some wires must have got crossed if it seemed I had convex tamp.
    Iím looking forward to taking my BDB and Smart grinder in and do cross-testing to see whatís going on.

    Thanks for all the suggestions guys.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    Right after a full clean of the grinder the results are the same.
    Iíve got more videos showing multiple more tests, grinding finer doesnít help even out the extraction. I thought when my wife tamped it showed a different result which pointed to my tamping, but after a couple tests hers were the same too.
    G'day gmeddy

    Yep, Pullman baskets and tamper should give a much better result than that.

    Assuming the other group does the same thing then I really doubt it is the machine "skewing the shot".

    Having just read the whole "hijacked" portion of this thread, a couple of thoughts for you to play with.

    1) A preliminary "light & level" tamp of about 4mm of coffee fluff really helps machines without preinfusion channel less. Also, I agree with the "don't fart around with the distribution too much" posts. FWIW, I would merely top the rest of the grounds up to your chosen dosage, give it a light level tamp and hit "go". I have never seen why a 30lb tamp does anything more of less than a lighter tamp (unless you get into fine tuning the tamp to match the roast - and that is a totally different issue). I only have limited NS experience, however it applies to all the LMs I usually set up. BTW, after that light tamp do not tap it again or channeling is 90% guaranteed. Why I think it works (i.e. pure supposition): Think of it like a little wall at the bottom of the basket - when the water hits the top of the puck and starts to spread out, the "wall" acts as a buffer to help even out the rest of the puck before any significant flow happens.

    2) I have never yet seen a SJ grinder (which is what that looks like) do even 80Kg before the particle spread goes on a permanent lunch break. I suggest you grind a little onto a piece of white paper, get out a strong magnifier and see what the grounds actually look like in terms of spread. Disclosure: I admit to a bias on this one. Many CS'r's would know the SJ is my personal "worst grinder of all time" in the commercial arena because I have never had a really good particle spread out of one (and have used a refractometer often enough to prove it) - even after just bedding in the burrs - and I found out via a David Walsh(? or Max Kaminsky) talk that it is actually designed that way in the factory. Dark roasts only for and SJ for me and even then I try to avoid them. Trying your Breville is definitely a good move.

    Hope this helps


    TampIt

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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    G'day gmeddy

    ...

    I have never yet seen a SJ grinder (which is what that looks like) do even 80Kg before the particle spread goes on a permanent lunch break. I suggest you grind a little onto a piece of white paper, get out a strong magnifier and see what the grounds actually look like in terms of spread. Disclosure: I admit to a bias on this one. Many CS'r's would know the SJ is my personal "worst grinder of all time" in the commercial arena because I have never had a really good particle spread out of one (and have used a refractometer often enough to prove it) - even after just bedding in the burrs - and I found out via a David Walsh(? or Max Kaminsky) talk that it is actually designed that way in the factory. Dark roasts only for and SJ for me and even then I try to avoid them. Trying your Breville is definitely a good move.

    Hope this helps


    TampIt
    G'day TampIt,
    Well well well, I just got back in from running a bunch more test shots before reading this post of yours.
    I did a lot of different shots, and the best ones were the first ones, but they weren't perfect, the closest to good was still a doughnut extraction.

    And then after I'd gone through a few it ended up doing the half sided extraction again.

    I tried grinding finer, going down to 19g, grinding courser and going up to 22g... around and around I chased my tail...

    Then I finally fired up the Breville Smart Grinder, took a quick guess at grind setting and spat out 20g... dropped it into the pf and gave it a quick no-faffing tap and tamp... and pulled a shot. Closest thing I've seen to a perfect extraction yet!

    I thought it's just luck. So I did it again. And again the shot was a great extraction. I videoed everything... but don't feel like editing it all very much...

    I'm leaning towards the Mythos 1

    There might be a good condition Super Jolly that's only done around 90kg work coming up in the For Sale section soon guys... anyone interested?
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  6. #56
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    here's the testings, including the climactic results of the Breville SGP at the end.
    https://youtu.be/0unwgkTKmd4
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    here's the testings, including the climactic results of the Breville SGP at the end.
    https://youtu.be/0unwgkTKmd4
    Haha epic, gave me a laugh. Seriously though, good to have problems solved, but it was painful to watch the SGP outperform the SJ. Would be interesting to see how SJ behaves with a new set of burrs? If there is no improvement there must be alignment issues.

    Mythos sounds like a better investment.
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  8. #58
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    Actually, we bought a La San Marco SM-90A grinder a few years ago that had a worn out burr-set, so bought a new set.
    Found out later that they were not original but a sourced generic set. They only lasted about 50Kg before they were utterly stuffed. Our eldest son eventually inherited this grinder into which he fitted a genuine LSM set of burrs.

    The result was like night and day. The generic burrs never performed anything like as well as the OEM parts, the grinds were much more fluffy and very consistent in size; something the generic burrs, right from day dot, couldn't do. Well, needless to say, once bitten twice shy so would never buy another set of generic burrs. Just a waste of money, time and the imbibing of coffee that is not quite up to its best.

    Mal.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Actually, we bought a La San Marco SM-90A grinder a few years ago that had a worn out burr-set, so bought a new set.
    Found out later that they were not original but a sourced generic set. They only lasted about 50Kg before they were utterly stuffed. Our eldest son eventually inherited this grinder into which he fitted a genuine LSM set of burrs.

    The result was like night and day. The generic burrs never performed anything like as well as the OEM parts, the grinds were much more fluffy and very consistent in size; something the generic burrs, right from day dot, couldn't do. Well, needless to say, once bitten twice shy so would never buy another set of generic burrs. Just a waste of money, time and the imbibing of coffee that is not quite up to its best.

    Mal.
    Had a similar experience with my Rocky Mal, when the original burrs were showing signs of wear I replaced them with an after market set, big mistake, they were done and dusted within 6 months, replaced them with a set of OEM, they were still going strong when I sold the grinder a few years later.

    Guess its the old story, you get what you pay for.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    Haha epic, gave me a laugh. Seriously though, good to have problems solved, but it was painful to watch the SGP outperform the SJ. Would be interesting to see how SJ behaves with a new set of burrs? If there is no improvement there must be alignment issues.

    Mythos sounds like a better investment.
    SJ: no, it is designed in to give a wide particle spread deliberately. It would be almost impossible to have alignment issues - the basic frame is the kind usually found on oversized military vehicles. Unfortunately the original burrs (at least historically, I have avoided the things for a decade) were made from what we used to call "mafioso metal" - some cheeses are probably harder. Easy to work it out - firstly they need bedding in for up to 10Kgs (!!! ask any engineer why a so called "precision made part" needs bedding in) which shows they are too soft. Then they sort of work until the 70 to 80 kilo mark, by which time they are worn out. To rub salt in the wound, the industrial motor will spin them for about the next 100 years - even if the ensuing coffee is rubbish. In their specific case I would consider aftermarket burrs on a "can't be worse than stock" basis.

    Your query made me search my archive. "Ben Kaminsky: Espresso: Why you hate it, how to fix it" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-YI50dUC7g has the factory comment to him. Priceless.


    TampIt
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    here's the testings, including the climactic results of the Breville SGP at the end.
    https://youtu.be/0unwgkTKmd4
    If as Tampit says its structurally impossible for a SJ to be out of alignment, then may as well invest in a set of serious burrs. Coffeeparts have SSP redspeed cheaper than buying a Mythos. https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/ssp-r...ni-super-jolly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    If as Tampit says its structurally impossible for a SJ to be out of alignment, then may as well invest in a set of serious burrs. Coffeeparts have SSP redspeed cheaper than buying a Mythos. https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/ssp-r...ni-super-jolly
    Yeah interesting... thanks TampIt and Mal. Very good to know.
    I was looking at them SSP burrs last night, Steve, they look and sound like they would be the way to go if I was going to keep this grinder for a long time.
    But I had already been wanting to upgrade to something that can handle big days and has inbuilt climate control because I work in a high range of differing temperatures. Itís possible I might be in the van on a summer day with no A/C making coffees as fast as I can for hours on end. Doesnít sound very nice...

    And Iím sure the SJ isnít designed for that kind of work...

    So I might go and replace the burrs with stock OEM ones while I work out how to finance the Mythos, and then sell the SJ with lightly (maybe just bedded in? ) used burrs for something like $700 which will help with the upgrade finance...

  13. #63
    Senior Member Erimus's Avatar
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    I love a happy ending.
    A great piece of diagnosis off "The Good TampIt".

  14. #64
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    I'm leaning towards the Mythos 1
    G'day gmeddy. I just had a read of this thread. Why the Mythos? Plenty said about it by users and lot's not favourable.
    This whole burr heating element thing.......

    But I'm curious to know what lead you to your leaning.

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    Yeah. Etzmax or Anfim would be my choices for high volume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Why the Mythos? Plenty said about it by users and lot's not favourable.
    This whole burr heating element thing.......

    But I'm curious to know what lead you to your leaning.
    Good question, I actually havenít made up my mind or finished researching which grinder I will go with.
    Factors which are important in my case are:

    Height of grinder including hopper. Super Jolly is already a bit too tall.

    Capable of giving me consistency throughout big changes of temperature (cooling system?)

    Deliver clump-free grinds.

    Quality burrs that last longer than 80kg

    ó

    I like the Mythos because as far as I knew it was a top quality grinder which isnít too tall and has temperature control systems.
    I havenít gotten into deeper research to find the negative reviews yet. But I have around 5 months before I will more urgently need the upgrade.

    Glen

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    Good question, I actually haven’t made up my mind or finished researching which grinder I will go with.
    Factors which are important in my case are:

    Height of grinder including hopper. Super Jolly is already a bit too tall.

    Capable of giving me consistency throughout big changes of temperature (cooling system?)

    Deliver clump-free grinds.

    Quality burrs that last longer than 80kg



    I like the Mythos because as far as I knew it was a top quality grinder which isn’t too tall and has temperature control systems.
    I haven’t gotten into deeper research to find the negative reviews yet. But I have around 5 months before I will more urgently need the upgrade.

    Glen
    G'day again gmeddy

    I am glad the earlier post was useful in the "diagnostic confirmation process".

    FYI, almost every commercial grinder has a cut down hopper available precisely to reduce the overall height.

    For most cafe use it is really hard to go past a Major - however that is not a current generation, even particle spread grinder for espresso. To be fair it is not too shabby in that area either. I have lived with / setup quite a few of them and they are a good solid workhorse under almost any condition of use / abuse. FYI, I bought a so called "dead Major" for $30 quite a while back. It was solidly choked up with more grinds than I believed it was capable of holding, and some of them had overheated and burnt inside the casing. After a clean out, recalibrate plus a new fuse off it went perfectly - highly impressive considering it had every reason to cark it permanently under those conditions.

    If you need to constantly tinker with grind settings "under duress" then almost any of the commercial Dittings are also worth a look. They generally rival any of the "new wave" of grinders over a wide range of grind settings. "Swiss tool steel" burrs mean that replacing a burr is a really rare event - start thinking in tonnes, not Kgs.

    Alternatively, if you can find one, the very rare "slow revving"* version of the La Cimbali Junior it is pretty good - although it is quite wasteful when changing grinds.

    Mythos also looks like a good grinder, however it is too new to have any idea about longevity. I cannot see why you feel temperature control is worthwhile - any grinder is more affected by small humidity changes rather than temperature changes (until temperature variations get really, really extreme). Also, allow coffee beans to go over 30 Celsius for any length of time and the only task left is to kiss them goodbye and call for pallbearers.

    Hope this helps



    TampIt

    *Slow revving La Cimbali Junior: Another Perth CS guy has a spare one which I only know about because he bought my 4th "rescued from hell" Vario from me. If interested PM me and I can let him know to contact you directly. Before you ask, no idea on price or even whether he would want to sell it (and very little knowledge of the CS guy himself for that matter other than his spare La Cim / my ex Vario).
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  18. #68
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    Good question, I actually haven’t made up my mind or finished researching which grinder I will go with.
    Factors which are important in my case are:

    Height of grinder including hopper. Super Jolly is already a bit too tall.

    Capable of giving me consistency throughout big changes of temperature (cooling system?)

    Deliver clump-free grinds.

    Quality burrs that last longer than 80kg



    I like the Mythos because as far as I knew it was a top quality grinder which isn’t too tall and has temperature control systems.
    I haven’t gotten into deeper research to find the negative reviews yet. But I have around 5 months before I will more urgently need the upgrade.

    Glen
    Sure. Be careful of fan reviews .....but there are plenty of user reviews ( by people who didn't fork out the cash) that are a little more unbiased.

    I have an Etzmax medium about to be unboxed ... what I have seen and tasted so far is pretty good tho' it's not the prettiest thing on the bench. On duty in the kitchen is a Kafatek Monolith.
    Seriously good home grinder with an incredibly small footprint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    On duty in the kitchen is a Kafatek Monolith.
    Seriously good home grinder with an incredibly small footprint.
    I just looked up the Kafatek monolith - not sure which one you have as they seem to do a conical and flat. I love the look of the angled one with flat burrs. But looks like a bit of stuffing around involved with the single dose arrangement - and the one I saw on YouTube took 10s to turn out 18g. No doubt it does a great job though with zero retention too. Nice.
    Looks like they are pretty hard to get a hold of...

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    If looking at the Monolith, one should also look at the Helor Stance Motor. Partly a local product.
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    Bad news... $400 later I have SSP Red Speed burrs which are producing the exact same results.

    Given the fact my BSG consistently produces good extractions, and this SJ consistently produces these terrible extractions... do I pursue warranty on the Mazzer or what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    Bad news... $400 later I have SSP Red Speed burrs which are producing the exact same results.
    Have a read here, seems like those burrs are very touchy to installation accuracy. https://www.home-barista.com/grinder...ng-t51704.html
    Seems like they might be tricky to use at the best of times anyway.

  23. #73
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    Bad news... $400 later I have SSP Red Speed burrs which are producing the exact same results.

    Given the fact my BSG consistently produces good extractions, and this SJ consistently produces these terrible extractions... do I pursue warranty on the Mazzer or what?
    Might be worth contacting the main Mazzer agent for some advice or they might point you in the right direction? You never know.....

    Wega Espresso Machines Pty Ltd (Main Australian Agent)
    51 Moreland Rd
    East Coburg VIC 3058
    Phone: 03 9385 1055
    enquiries@wega.net.au

    https://wega.net.au/contact-us/

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    Have a read here, seems like those burrs are very touchy to installation accuracy. https://www.home-barista.com/grinder...ng-t51704.html
    Seems like they might be tricky to use at the best of times anyway.
    Thanks for that link. Good read.
    One guy said that the SSP burrs are a more precise fit with less wiggle than OEM, seems like almost everyone is saying they get better results.
    I donít see anyone saying they had trouble fitting or aligning them at all.

    Plenty of them say they get faster grind times too, which I donít get. Exactly the same time I got with OEM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Might be worth contacting the main Mazzer agent for some advice or they might point you in the right direction? You never know.....

    Wega Espresso Machines Pty Ltd (Main Australian Agent)
    51 Moreland Rd
    East Coburg VIC 3058
    Phone: 03 9385 1055
    enquiries@wega.net.au

    https://wega.net.au/contact-us/
    Thanks for that mate. I just canít fathom how the results Iím getting can mean much else other than bad grinder (more than just bad burrs). So I will give them a call and see what they say.

    Cheers.
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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    Thanks for that link. Good read.
    One guy said that the SSP burrs are a more precise fit with less wiggle than OEM, seems like almost everyone is saying they get better results.
    I don’t see anyone saying they had trouble fitting or aligning them at all.
    My bad, I read it backwards i.e. SSP burrs have wiggle room, Mazzer burrs don't.

  27. #77
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    I just looked up the Kafatek monolith - not sure which one you have as they seem to do a conical and flat. I love the look of the angled one with flat burrs. But looks like a bit of stuffing around involved with the single dose arrangement - and the one I saw on YouTube took 10s to turn out 18g. No doubt it does a great job though with zero retention too. Nice.
    Looks like they are pretty hard to get a hold of...
    I have the conical. What stuffing around?? Weigh beans, pour into grind chamber, press button, fluffy grinds, no retention. I don't use the funnel ( do they on the vid??) . it's not necessary for pouring the beans in, I use it on the pf to keep things tidy.

    No, zip, zero, zilch stuffing around. And grind time, are you running a cafe? :-)

    The grind time relates to the zero retention so a few seconds extra is no loss, as far as coffee goes it's actually a gain.

    Hard to get hold of? yeah..nah. Just have to get your timing right.

    A few of my clients have SJ's... (in my opinion) one of the worst grinders ever made for its price and target market (entry level/low volume commercial)

    I'm not 'fan boying' the Kafatek there are other grinders more readily available. I had two Macap M4's, one an M4D, which at the time was the best home grinder available and is still in the top 5 or six.

    I have an Etzmax, still in its box and a Robur, coming up for sale.....

    And there is a Kony for sale on this site. Seriously good grinder.
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  28. #78
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    But I have digressed, distracted by your suggestion of Mythos grinder.

    As far as the main thrust of the thread is concerned... I have never, in my limited experience, over the last 10 years, seven of which

    have been as a professional in the industry, come across channeling that is the result of machinery. It has always been a technique issue or an application of technique to given tools.

    You may well be poised on the brink of spending big dollars to not solve an issue.

    Looking at your video brings a couple of things come to mind. Firstly, if you think the Kafatek involves a bit of rigamarole then I'll have to check the video out....

    you seem to jump through a few hoops in your prep with what you have. Secondly, water will take the path of least resistance, and under pressure will be even more pronounced.

    Edge channeling and squirting is obvious. This is not a fault of the grinder. It is your grind setting and dosing that is the issue. Have you set your burrs to choke your shot and then worked backwards?

    Do you allow for the massive retention of Mazzer grinders? i.e do you purge your grind path before making your first shot, then dialling in the burrs?

    Your video suggests that you haven't dialled it in at all.

    Clumping is normal and I wouldn't get too hung up about it. Are you setting your burrs to avoid clumping? Don't. Adjust your burrs to achieve a good pour.

    The first thing you should be working towards is an even doughnut that doesn't channel within itself but eventually closes over in the middle, even if it's after 20-25 seconds.

    And don't be afraid of pours that are 35-40 seconds long, especially with a 20g dose. Forget the rules!! ( well... some of them!!)

    Then aim for shots that come together within 12 seconds. Then try for shots that extract across the whole basket within five seconds of the first drops.

    Don't try for perfection straight up.. it may frustrate you and dishearten you. Go for small steps; they are more easily achieved.

    Your first steps now should be to choke your shots, then back off the burr adjustment and PURGE your grinder ( up to 3 shots worth) and pour another, observe the extraction and

    see if it changes, then repeat, if necessary and PURGE, PURGE, PURGE.

    Remember the shot is not about the process... the process is about the shot. A drip that wants to pour...

    When learning how to prepare good coffee consistently don't use equipment that requires highly developed skills and modus operandi, I'm mainly talking filter baskets here...

    Keep trying and go outside of the box you're in ( given we are all in one of our own making!!!). Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    ... there are other grinders more readily available. I had two Macap M4's, one an M4D, which at the time was the best home grinder available and is still in the top 5 or six.
    Shameless plug for the M4D currently listed in the For Sale area.

    I've been reluctant to comment, as far more knowledgeable people than I have already chimed in, but I have had some similar experiences recently. I didn't have many distribution issues with my M4D, and so rarely paid attention to the evenness of the flow, but I've been paying a lot more attention now that I'm using a Helor Stance Motor (similar to the Monolith - 83mm conical Mazzer burrs, no retention single dosing). What I have found is that the finer and more even grind is more demanding of distribution. I've had to forgo grinding into the portafilter for the moment and instead grind into the included metal cup and then use the included four-pronged WDT tool to distribute, and then I get an even flow. This is a work still in progress, esp as I'm using VST baskets (VST haters can save their breath).

    I honestly think that your main problem is with distribution. My view is that you should be able to get an even flow with any grinder. Some grinders may demand more of your distribution technique, and it may seem paradoxical that a higher end grinder is more demanding that a less expensive one, but that's my recent experience (admittedly based on a small sample). I know you like that nifty anti-clumping tool, but from looking at your videos, it's far from clear to me that it's giving you an even distribution. Clearly it's not from those views of the bottom of the basket. I'd try grinding into a cup and then a modest amount of WDT.

    I'd have thought that the real impact of the SSP burrs in the (unloved-on-CS) SJ relative to the SGP, if any, would be in the cup, once you've got good distribution from both.
    Last edited by gunda; 16th December 2018 at 04:46 PM.
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  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    are you running a cafe? :-)
    .
    Is that a trick question chokki? Heís clearly running a cafe, heís stated it multiple times. Itís a mobile cafe, but a commercial setting nonetheless that gets very busy at times by the sound of it.


    Thereís some interesting feedback in the few posts above. All worth considering, but Iím not sure itís all on the mark. Firstly, if itís definitely a distribution/prep problem why isnít it happening when the Smart Grinder is used? Also Iím far less experienced than some of the contributors here. So Iím not going to totally disagree that faulty equipment causes issues like this, but I am going to add to it. Iíve found that different equipment combinations and ease of use can make a big difference to getting a good extraction. It could be as simple as not allowing for retention in the SJ, but I think itís definitely worth talking to the seller about it. Donít demand a refund or replacement, but point out whatís been happening and see if you can maybe borrow another grinder to try. That way youíll definitely know what the cause is depending on how the replacement/loaner grinder performs.
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  31. #81
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    I would be willing to bet that if this was not a doserless SJ you would have much more even looking extractions. As mentioned above, grind into empty milk jug, give it a quick shake rattle and roll, distribute, tamp and pull shot.
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  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve82 View Post
    I would be willing to bet that if this was not a doserless SJ you would have much more even looking extractions. As mentioned above, grind into empty milk jug, give it a quick shake rattle and roll, distribute, tamp and pull shot.
    Yeah Iíd have to agree. For better or worse we have a Major and two SJs at work. The Major is bearable, but the SJs just seem tiresome after owning a couple of big Compaks. In saying that theyíre doser versions and as crap as the dosers are they do deliver an excellent shot if you get everything else right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Is that a trick question chokki? He’s clearly running a cafe, he’s stated it multiple times. It’s a mobile cafe, but a commercial setting nonetheless that gets very busy at times by the sound of it.
    On reflection, this is a very good point. It's all very well for a home user to describe how to pull the perfect shot. But in a busy mobile cafť, I'd have thought that efficiency trumps time-consuming perfection. I wonder how many cafť shots you'd see with a perfectly even flow if they were all using bottomless portafilters.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunda View Post
    On reflection, this is a very good point. It's all very well for a home user to describe how to pull the perfect shot. But in a busy mobile cafť, I'd have thought that efficiency trumps time-consuming perfection. I wonder how many cafť shots you'd see with a perfectly even flow if they were all using bottomless portafilters.
    Only the good ones
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  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    Only the good ones
    ...and I really want to be a good one...

    Iíve read all the above replies and will try again.
    Itís kind of going back to where I started where I was told Iím ďfaffing around and fartarsingĒ though isnít it...

    Iíll take the grinder up to my roaster cafe owner today to get his opinion. He will probably suggest running a lot of kgs of old coffee through it in finest grind setting to season it well before anything much else... so I will take the OEM burrs with me too.

  36. #86
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    Have to say hobbyists of all shapes and sizes often become obsessive in pursuit of their chosen interest, Coffee Snobs are no different.OCD.jpg
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  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Have to say hobbyists of all shapes and sizes often become obsessive in pursuit of their chosen interest, Coffee Snobs are no different.OCD.jpg
    No disrespect intended, but the comments from the home coffee hobbyists are quite different from the specialty coffee professionals.

    The ‘grind finer and dose lower’ comment that I see regularly is not always the case.
    It’s a balance between dose and grind size that dictates the shots, but most importantly flavour
    Last edited by Ronin; 17th December 2018 at 10:03 AM.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Is that a trick question chokki? He’s clearly running a cafe, he’s stated it multiple times. It’s a mobile cafe, but a commercial setting nonetheless that gets very busy at times by the sound of it.
    No, but I did think that some of those coffee flags would be pretty cool outside my kitchen window! ;-) ... tho' I might end up single!!

    Nah, Leroy, I actually missed that bit.... until I saw the flags.
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  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Firstly, if it’s definitely a distribution/prep problem why isn’t it happening when the Smart Grinder is used?.
    One of the issues that this thread has to deal with is the remote diagnosis of a paradoxical situation..... solving a simple problem whose answer is hidden in relative complexity.

    If the shot works with the Breville, or any other grinder, that would only suggest (to me) that there is a variable shot parameter that is different between them and not just 'this grinder works and this one doesn't'.

    When diagnosing and resolving pour issues it's best to resolve it with the equipment on hand, given that it's in ok working order and although the SJ is not my favourite a reasonable pour structure dynamic

    should be achievable.
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  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    Only the good ones

    ...and only some of the time.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    No disrespect intended, but the comments from the home coffee hobbyists are quite different from the specialty coffee professionals.

    The Ďgrind finer and dose lowerí comment that I see regularly is not always the case.
    Itís a balance between dose and grind size that dictates the shots, but most importantly flavour
    Always have a chuckle when people refer to themselves as coffee professionals, yes I know there are degree of knowledge, some are certainly more skilled than others, but professional? nah, it's a skill that most can pick up quite quickly.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    No disrespect intended, but the comments from the home coffee hobbyists are quite different from the specialty coffee professionals.
    Well, I'll leave that right there.....

    [/QUOTE]The ‘grind finer and dose lower’ comment that I see regularly is not always the case.
    It’s a balance between dose and grind size that dictates the shots, but most importantly flavour[/QUOTE]

    This seems to be an unfinished thought, Ronin... where were you going with this??

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    If the shot works with the Breville, or any other grinder, that would only suggest (to me) that there is a variable shot parameter that is different between them and not just 'this grinder works and this one doesn't'.

    When diagnosing and resolving pour issues it's best to resolve it with the equipment on hand, given that it's in ok working order and although the SJ is not my favourite a reasonable pour structure dynamic should be achievable.
    Yeah thatís what I thought. So Iím taking it to a guy whoís got many yrs of industry exp - he can have a go at dialling it in and compare to his other shop grinders if he needs to. If he can get it dialed in and producing a reasonably acceptable pour (which would have to be light years better than what Iím getting) then thatís great and hopefully I can learn something from it about what Iím doing wrong or completely missing.

    Stay tuned... should have some info to post before the end of the day.
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  44. #94
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    How many cafťs do you see fuss with distribution, let alone weighing shots? It's grind or dose direct into the portafilter, tamp and press the button to keep the queue for coffee moving along. I have no personal experience of a dosing grinder and wouldn't have one at home, but perhaps its the dosing grinders that many of them use that helps with distribution? Is this a reasonable guess?

    As a general comment, in many fields you don't learn about excellence from people who make a living from it. You learn about trade-offs - how to get the best quality in the least time. For example, you won't learn how to caress every pixel in a digital image in order to get the ultimate quality from many photographers who earn a living from photography. You learn that from artists and enthusiasts with plenty of time (and often plenty of money) without deadlines and without a queue of demanding clients.
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  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    No, but I did think that some of those coffee flags would be pretty cool outside my kitchen window! ;-) ... tho' I might end up single!!

    Nah, Leroy, I actually missed that bit.... until I saw the flags.
    I had a laugh. Happens to the best of us mate. ;-)
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  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmeddy View Post
    Yeah thatís what I thought. So Iím taking it to a guy whoís got many yrs of industry exp - he can have a go at dialling it in and compare to his other shop grinders if he needs to. If he can get it dialed in and producing a reasonably acceptable pour (which would have to be light years better than what Iím getting) then thatís great and hopefully I can learn something from it about what Iím doing wrong or completely missing.

    Stay tuned... should have some info to post before the end of the day.
    Good plan. That should sort it out.
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  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Well, I'll leave that right there.....
    The ‘grind finer and dose lower’ comment that I see regularly is not always the case.
    It’s a balance between dose and grind size that dictates the shots, but most importantly flavour[/QUOTE]

    This seems to be an unfinished thought, Ronin... where were you going with this??[/QUOTE]

    2 points I guess

    1- Well meant informed help can sometimes be discounted/negated as it is not the common answer when searching the forum even though it may be the best answer. Have a read through the posts in this thread as an example. There is some quality info and some generic answers. My comments are not meant disrespectfully but words can be misinterpreted on forums so I thought I would start by saying that it is not intended as such. Did I offend you with that?

    The most common answer to these types of questions I read on coffeesnobs is ‘grind finer and dose lower’
    I don’t know you chokkidog, but your posts suggest quality industry experience rather than home hobbyist, so I believe you know that there is a point in any particular basket that is too low a dose. (Explanation for those that do not know)
    Pucks post extraction that are sloppy, muddy and will break up on knocking out can create too much turbulence during extraction with possible channeling and over extraction issues.
    To this end, the advice to dose lower and grind finer may be incorrect.

    Dose size is very much dependent on the basket you are using. Yes there is a bit of range in each basket, but I strongly suggest not dosing 18g in a 19-22g basket as in my experience the correct dose is on the upper end of the basket recommendation. If you want to dose lower, get a smaller basket.

    In any commercial coffee environment you need to work with your Roaster, who should have recipes for the coffees (extraction yields that work for each of the coffees that are roasted for best flavour) but also that suggested recipes are a great starting point, then adjust grind/dose to get the best flavour and consistency.
    There is no point pulling the best shot you possibly can, with perfect tds ratios from poo in the group handle.
    No matter what you do, it’ll just be the best poo you will ever drink.
    Last edited by Ronin; 17th December 2018 at 11:55 AM.
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  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunda View Post
    How many cafťs do you see fuss with distribution, let alone weighing shots? It's grind or dose direct into the portafilter, tamp and press the button to keep the queue for coffee moving along. I have no personal experience of a dosing grinder and wouldn't have one at home, but perhaps its the dosing grinders that many of them use that helps with distribution? Is this a reasonable guess?

    As a general comment, in many fields you don't learn about excellence from people who make a living from it. You learn about trade-offs - how to get the best quality in the least time. For example, you won't learn how to caress every pixel in a digital image in order to get the ultimate quality from many photographers who earn a living from photography. You learn that from artists and enthusiasts with plenty of time (and often plenty of money) without deadlines and without a queue of demanding clients.
    All of the good cafes worry about all the important factors, that’s what makes them good.
    Dosing grinders are painful and wasteful.
    Excellence in any field is from passion, either from outside or inside in industry. Coffee has plenty of passion in it, hence its popularity
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  49. #99
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    Just got home from my day trip to try sort out this grinder.
    My roaster tried it out, put 1 kg of beans through it to try settle the new burrs in first, and then dosed out a shot straight into his naked pf, then pulled a shot through his Kees V. It looked identically terrible to when I pull a shot from my machine here.
    He scratched his head and tried again, dosed a little more, same results.
    Must be a bad grinder he said.
    Co-incidentaly he's just been through this same problem with a brand new Mythos 1 - it's been sent back and the techs confirmed it was an alignment issue which they are fixing. Apparently the Mythos was producing beautiful fluffy grinds but the extraction was terrible - looked exactly the same as mine is.

    The supplier of my grinder is confident there can't be anything wrong with my grinder because Mazzer SJ alignment can't be adjusted he says. But whatever the case this SJ is obviously a lemon. So now I'm up for some more stuffing around to send it off to be checked out by the old Italian guy at CMS, Reservoir VIC.
    Last edited by gmeddy; 17th December 2018 at 05:42 PM. Reason: typo
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  50. #100
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Interesting, good at least to have some outside confirmation from someone else in the industry.
    Sure, alignment can not be adjusted but who is to say that the burr carrier was not bent during production? maybe it was a Monday?

    Good luck with it be sure to update when the issue is resolved.
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