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Thread: New LM Machine review and comments re: 3rd Wave Coffee

  1. #1
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    New LM Machine review and comments re: 3rd Wave Coffee

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    How do you argue with people who have these perceptions.

    " One roaster we interviewed was bubbling with pride as he described a new flavor he had just uncovered in a particular roast (bubblegum!). As I write this, I received a promotional email for a Red Gesha offered by Stumptown with “juicy notes of watermelon and rose water with a hard candy sweetness."
    H
    Last edited by Yelta; 7th February 2019 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Typo.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    ow do you argue with people who have these perceptions.

    " One roaster we interviewed was bubbling with pride as he described a new flavor he had just uncovered in a particular roast (bubblegum!). As I write this, I received a promotional email for a Red Gesha offered by Stumptown with “juicy notes of watermelon and rose water with a hard candy sweetness."
    H
    if you like that, you’ll love this. https://www.coffeereview.com/top-30-coffees-2018/
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    https://dailycoffeenews.com/2018/07/...lue-structure/ has the last two comments (Damian Reed and Tionico) worth bottling.

    https://www.coffeereview.com/top-30-coffees-2018/ is exactly the kind of crap I associate with some wine (and Scotch whisky) reviewers. Even after nearly 18 months in the US and at least 50 different batches, I have yet to have even a mediocre Kona - and enough of the locals inflicted their chosen Kona on me for me to conclude that I just don't like it much. Score of 96 - insane. To name just a few - a particular farm's light roasted high altitude Colombian, Sulawesi Blue, Kenyan peaberry, Panama Geisha or the original Ethiopian Mocha (or just about any other Ethiopian for that matter) run rings around the Kona. And I have probably missed out on at least a dozen or so other standout coffees I have encountered over the years.

    My take - if I want something that tastes like bubblegum, strangely enough I will eat some bubblegum. Colour me weird (my ex wives do, so I am used to it).

    True, a good coffee has a range of flavours and some of them can remind one of certain other items however the overwhelming flavour should actually be ... wait for it ... coffee!

    Whether you prefer your coffee as a "chocolate bomb ristretto", dark or light roast, a blend or some specific varietal then becomes personal preference. As does the method of producing the brew.

    As long as you are enjoying what is in front of you, is anything else more relevant?


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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodhouse View Post
    if you like that, youíll love this. https://www.coffeereview.com/top-30-coffees-2018/
    Beggars belief.

    Loved this, what a load of bullsheet.
    "Enchantingly rich, intensely floral, unique. Dried black cherry, tea rose, Cognac, chocolate fudge, gently scorched almond wood in aroma and cup. Deeply sweet-savory in structure with crisp, apple-toned acidity; plump, syrupy mouthfeel. Exceptionally long finish that carries over all the aroma and flavor notes from the cup, plus an umami intrigue akin to candied bacon."

    bullshit-stamp.jpg
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    Yelta try a few different roast profiles next time you roast, I am sure you will nail some 'umami intrigue just like candied bacon'.
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    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Beggars belief.

    Loved this, what a load of bullsheet.
    "Enchantingly rich, intensely floral, unique. Dried black cherry, tea rose, Cognac, chocolate fudge, gently scorched almond wood in aroma and cup. Deeply sweet-savory in structure with crisp, apple-toned acidity; plump, syrupy mouthfeel. Exceptionally long finish that carries over all the aroma and flavor notes from the cup, plus an umami intrigue akin to candied bacon."

    bullshit-stamp.jpg
    With all due respect, so because you personally can't taste it, it means it isn't there?

    I just know the hours upon hours upon hooooours of training, practice, education etc that people undergo at dozens of professional cupping tables and assessments. It is absolutely staggering what efforts people go to, and descriptors are certainly not always imagined. I agree some descriptions look embellished for sure, perhaps to make it eye-catching (good marketing, I'm certainly not naive in that regard) but I do know that I have been absolutely blown away by coffees and what is possible to bring out in them.

    One coffee I bought last year had pineapple + cola in the descriptor. I bought it being very curious, and the espresso I made stopped me in my tracks. Pineapple galore, which I'd never experienced before in coffee, and to me it wasn't cola flavour but it was reminiscent of having drunk a big mouthful of cola, leaving that sparkling fizzy feeling all through the mouth immediately afterwards.

    A filter coffee I tried had tomato in its description. Being open minded and curious I tried it and without a doubt I could see what they mean. And no it wasn't that disgusting vegetal, underdeveloped flavour, nor unpleasant in any way. It was delightful, and I came away having gained a new and exciting experience there.

    And some of the times it's not the exact flavour of what's being described, but it is similar to in texture, mouthfeel, cascading aftertaste, or a particular vibrancy.

    And after attending and doing training in a cupping course the fellow did say it's often not a matter of taste, but in people struggling to describe what they're tasting. So he recommended expanding your palette and trying all sorts of foods and drinks, even on the extreme ends (far too sour, far too bitter etc). That way flavours become more apparent to you just in recognition. And you only recognise flavours you have experienced before.

    We did a little exercise where we had to describe a drink we had recently to another person as detailed as we could (flavour, texture etc), and I just could not for the life of me pick what this fellow was describing to me. Turns out he was describing a pina colada. I've never drank one of those so of course I wouldn't be able to guess it!

    What makes the whole thing tricky is that it's a completely subjective experience, so what one person describes won't always correlate with another's experience. But I guess that's the process of cupping and assessing, to reach some sort of agreement as to what a bean expresses.

    Just my 2 cents of course, I just personally think that is what makes the coffee world so incredibly exciting and innovative, there is so much to explore and flavours to unlock it boggles the mind. I'm not sure if I'm alone in this (it's cool if I am ) but just offering a different take on the whole thing . It's what excites me about coffee.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Crikey Simon, don't know what to say, I guess there are people who are able to discern many different flavours in coffee not available to we mortals.

    There are also people who have visions and hear voices that most of us cant see or hear, I guess I am, and will remain one of the unenlightened multitude.
    Mysticism.jpg
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    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Crikey Simon, don't know what to say, I guess there are people who are able to discern many different flavours in coffee not available to we mortals.

    There are also people who have visions and hear voices that most of us cant see or hear, I guess I am, and will remain one of the unenlightened multitude.
    Mysticism.jpg
    Haha . Hope you know I wasn't having a go but just putting out my take on it, from knowing many in the industry and having worked in the industry there's alot out there, and to me events like the expo in Melbourne (which I'll be going to on Saturday) highlights alot of the great work that is being done, and the copious training many have undergone. Cupping is quite the artform, and one I honestly consider myself still amateur at, but constantly working on.

    But yeah, absolutely there is a bit of hoodoo out there I won't deny that haha
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Haha . Hope you know I wasn't having a go but just putting out my take on it, from knowing many in the industry and having worked in the industry there's alot out there, and to me events like the expo in Melbourne (which I'll be going to on Saturday) highlights alot of the great work that is being done, and the copious training many have undergone. Cupping is quite the artform, and one I honestly consider myself still amateur at, but constantly working on.

    But yeah, absolutely there is a bit of hoodoo out there I won't deny that haha
    Sure nuff! know where your coming from, it's very much like the wine industry, I suspect they hire over educated characters with vivid imaginations, who are also prone to smoking illicit substances to write some of the blurbs on their labels.

    I understand and appreciate knowledgeable descriptions, also know full well when I'm having my leg pulled.

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    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    Just for interest sake:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertaster

    Coffee is on the non-exhaustive list.
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    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Sure nuff! know where your coming from, it's very much like the wine industry, I suspect they hire over educated characters with vivid imaginations, who are also prone to smoking illicit substances to write some of the blurbs on their labels.
    Most of us HATE writing back labels. An old oppo of mine once did one which started off in 10 point type and reduced by one point every line until it dissapeared up its own fundament.

    Another old oppo of mine is an ex English teacher and effortlessly writes lucid tasting notes which actually make sense and read really well: if he wasn't such a lovely guy I'd hate him.

    The way I do it is by sitting down and drinking a bottle of the wine in question (usually, but not always, with my wife). If it's legible when I get up in the morning I fix it up and on it goes. Fortunately I am hangover proof (by a genetic quirk I don't get them).
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    Wine is an apposite example. It can be shown on the one hand that wine tasters can differentiate in blind tests, and on the other hand that most people (including wine tasters) are easily swayed by things which psychologists know sway people (label, price, group view). There is also marketing rubbish.

    Or, one could say, I donít know about art but I know what I like . We might over-estimate our own decisions yet we can make good judgements nonetheless. Whether they are good in consensus is something we find out later. Meantime, enjoy the coffee, your wine, your art.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    The way I do it is by sitting down and drinking a bottle of the wine in question (usually, but not always, with my wife). If it's legible when I get up in the morning I fix it up and on it goes. Fortunately I am hangover proof (by a genetic quirk I don't get them).
    Like you can share a bottle of red with the other half and wake up fine the following morning, I suspect the brain cells responsible for hangovers have long since met their demise.

    Nothing to do with genes, used to suffer horribly, no longer the case, perhaps the old saying (no sense no feeling) applies, regardless still enjoy the odd bottle.

    To stay on topic! Noonar, I know there are those among us who are reputed to be super tasters, I've no doubt this is the case, however most of us don't make the grade and are forced to live with the limited senses we were born with, I guess there are also those who choose to heighten their experiences by either education or in some cases, perhaps chemical means, I class myself as one of the multitude, I know what I enjoy and enjoy what I know, hopefully without being bombarded with pretentious bullshit.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensean View Post
    Wine is an apposite example. It can be shown on the one hand that wine tasters can differentiate in blind tests, and on the other hand that most people (including wine tasters) are easily swayed by things which psychologists know sway people (label, price, group view). There is also marketing rubbish.

    Or, one could say, I donít know about art but I know what I like . We might over-estimate our own decisions yet we can make good judgements nonetheless. Whether they are good in consensus is something we find out later. Meantime, enjoy the coffee, your wine, your art.
    Crikey! there's a remarkable degree of common sense and civility being displayed in this thread.

    Re the psychological aspect, advertisers know full well if they plant the seed autosuggestion will in many cases finish the job.

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    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    As a lifelong wine aficionado (age 17 yrs on anyhow) I have always been immersed in the quest to identify and describe what I taste in a wine.
    Even at my peak (probably my late 40s) I was aware that I simply couldn't taste some of the characteristics that the wine critics were identifying in particular wines and I concluded that:
    I didn't have a wide enough daily wine drinking experience, a good enough palate, or a memory that was capable of remembering the hundreds of colours, tastes, smells and nuances that were involved.
    I did a lot of blind-tastings and accept that there are some people who are consistently accurate and others like me who are pleased with a 70% hit-rate.
    I have always been a bit bemused at the trend to apply the same level of discrimination to coffee which I would have thought had a much smaller range of clearly discernable characteristics than wine.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Erimus's Avatar
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    I wouldn't worry to much about it. These people are known as supertasters and have superior taste buds to us mortals.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    ...and better imaginations probably.
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    There is truth and marketing in those labels



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