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Thread: Bump & Grind

  1. #1
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Bump & Grind

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Why do some beans require a coarser/finer grind than others?
    They are all beans. Made of the same stuff.
    For e.g. I find that the CS Ethiopian Sidamo Ardi needs about 2 points coarser setting on my 'Rocky' than 'WOW'.
    (and the other thing I notice is that the Sidamo also 'rides up' the inside edge of the portafilter more than anything else I have used - maybe a finer grind settles/compacts better?)

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    They are all made of the same stuff but in different proportions, giving different levels of friability.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Also wondered this myself Rocky! And have found that too with Ethiopian Naturals needing a coarser grind. Not really sure, I wonder if processing methods affects it too... there are just so many variables in espresso hey, with hot water being pushed through finely ground particles under pressure... so much going on!

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    OK I was wrong. According to this article in Nature, the most prestigious journal on the planet, bean origin does not affect particle size distribution when controlled for grinding temperature.
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    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    We know that coffees require finer grind settings as they age, as well as darker roasts needing finer grind settings than lighter roasts. I would suggest that this is because coffees get less soluble the older they get, and the darker they are roasted. We know that roasting removes weight from beans, I would think it's the soluble parts that are disappearing. We also know that post extraction it is largely the fibrous, structural parts of the bean left. Coffee ages due to exposure to air and unfavorable temperature/humidity conditions, oxygen will react with the soluble parts of the coffee causing chemical changes that make the coffee less reactive to and soluble in water. I imagine temperature and humidity changes also cause chemical changes to the coffee, making it less reactive to water.

    Less solubles in the coffee require a higher surface area to volume ratio (finer grind) to achieve the same extraction under the same conditions. Or alternatively darker roasts (less solubles) do better with higher temperatures (more chemical reactions taking place) than lighter roasts (more solubles) who prefer lower temperatures (less chemical reactions taking place).

    All other things being equal, the grind setting is a way to fine-tune the rate of extraction of your coffee. Why do different beans require different grind settings? I would suggest it's for the same reasons that beans are different - bean size, shape (structural properties), chemical composition, etc will all change the solubility of a bean and therefore grind size required.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Not sure I agree with your premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    We know that coffees require finer grind settings as they age, as well as darker roasts needing finer grind settings than lighter roasts.
    The logical explanation for grind size reducing with age is reduced CO2 content due to beans outgassing. I can't see a relationship between that and grind changing with bean origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    We know that roasting removes weight from beans, I would think it's the soluble parts that are disappearing.
    Most of the weight loss from roasting beans appears to be water and CO2. As for the rest (the smoke) volatility and aqueous solubility are poorly related for low molecular weight organics: the former is mostly due to cohesion and the latter mostly due to polarity. As examples, aliphatic hydrocarbons are volatile but insoluble whilst sugars are non-volatile but highly soluble.
    Last edited by Lyrebird; 26th April 2019 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Not sure I agree with your premises.



    The logical explanation for grind size reducing with age is reduced CO2 content due to beans outgassing. I can't see a relationship between that and grind changing with bean origin.



    Most of the weight loss from roasting beans appears to be water and CO2. As for the rest (the smoke) volatility and aqueous solubility are poorly related for low molecular weight organics: the former is mostly due to cohesion and the latter mostly due to polarity. As examples, aliphatic hydrocarbons are volatile but insoluble whilst sugars are non-volatile but highly soluble.
    I'm well out of my depth but CO2 surely doesn't account for much of the weight loss?

    I'm going to back away quickly now!

    Cheers all I've enjoyed reading this thread.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanderP View Post
    I'm well out of my depth but CO2 surely doesn't account for much of the weight loss?

    I'm going to back away quickly now!

    Cheers all I've enjoyed reading this thread.
    According to this paper (warning, it's a whole PhD thesis) total CO2 evolved is about 3% of the green bean mass at normal roasting profiles. Much of the CO2 is formed from decarbonylation of CGA and the Strecker aldehydes formed in the Maillard reactions, so the mass lost would be less (CO2 mass is 44, carbonyl group is 28)
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  9. #9
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Not sure I agree with your premises.
    I was mostly thinking out loud so happy to be wrong. My basic statement is that different beans / ages of beans require different surface area to volume ratios to achieve the same extraction in the same other conditions. Grind coarser in an aeropress and you need to brew longer. Grind coarser in an espresso machine and you need to let the shot run longer to extract the same amount out of the grinds (not the same TDS in the liquid shot etc, removing the same amount out of the beans). Can we agree up to this point?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    The logical explanation for grind size reducing with age is reduced CO2 content due to beans outgassing. I can't see a relationship between that and grind changing with bean origin.
    I was trying to cover all the factors requiring a change in grind size and this was one of them, I agree it's unrelated to origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Most of the weight loss from roasting beans appears to be water and CO2. As for the rest (the smoke) volatility and aqueous solubility are poorly related for low molecular weight organics: the former is mostly due to cohesion and the latter mostly due to polarity. As examples, aliphatic hydrocarbons are volatile but insoluble whilst sugars are non-volatile but highly soluble.
    I don't roast, and I'm not going to pretend to understand the intricacies of it, but my understanding is that if you roast the same bean to two different roast levels, 1 light, 1 dark, the lighter roast will have additional flavour characteristics to the dark (not always good flavours). If this is the case then more than water and CO2 must be disappearing. Alternatively only the water and CO2 are disappearing and the flavour changes are due to chemical changes within the bean from the heat etc, and I would suggest that these chemical changes don't only change the flavour but also how quickly the solubles leave the bean and enter the water.

    Or perhaps it's as simple as different beans have different percentages of structural material to soluble material and therefore require different grind settings to expose the same amount of soluble material to the brew water. Now that I've thought of this it makes the most sense.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    The changes on roasting are largely due to two factors: the breakdown of some large molecules to smaller molecules and the combination of some smaller molecules to make larger (but not normally as large as the macromolecules involved in the first place).

    Surprise surprise, it's more complex than that though, because some of the smaller molecules formed in the first bit participate in the second.

    I think your last paragraph is probably pretty close to the truth.

    I think there is also some influence from your distribution of molecules on the size and shape of particles formed when grinding. An example from a field where a lot more research has been done (brewing)*: when the intitial very large molecules in the endosperm of barley are transformed to smaller (but still large) molecules in the malting process, the way the grain reacts to grinding is competely changed. Grinding barley is like grinding little bits of wood while you can crack a well modified malt to bits between your thumbnails. In one place I worked we had a very expensive laboratory malt mill, we never put barley through it for fear of throwing out of alignment: we used a Mazzer mini instead.

    * Although I'm a winemaker by trade I worked as a brewer for many years.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I will read it all several times to extract (little pun there) all of the ideas and wisdom imparted.
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    I think the grind depends on the particular bean, some are classified "hard bean", others like nicaraguan are a large sized bean, while some are quite small beans, so you would imagine that the different beans would grind at different rates depending on their individual mass or size or hardness, more so perhaps if it is a roasters blend rather than a single origin.

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    Read Illy "Espresso Coffee - the science of quality". Short version:-

    Different beans have different densities (e.g. generic Indian or Brazilian is way less dense than generic Ethiopians or my most recent Ecuador). That is the so called "hard / soft bean" issue.

    Whilst hard beans are often denser, there is another green bean factor which is only loosely related - different solubility (i.e. my Ecuador is way less soluble than the similar density Ethiopians I know).

    So before it even gets to the roaster, different beans are far from equal (ask Andy!).

    Then roasting darker increases the solubility. The same beans have radically different solubility depending upon the roasting level (saves StarCharcoal a lot of espresso machine power at CS12++).

    Different roasting levels affect not only the CO2 but the whole aging process. That also affects the solubility, more than the density. Darker roasts age more quickly (the old "4 to 11 day" chestnut is only for dark roasts).

    Note: Not directly in Illy, however I have found that really light roasts also take a long time to lose the "too green" smell. Grind that too early and it becomes the "wheatgrass" a number of CS'r's have historically complained about in a lot of so called "3rd wave coffees". FWIW, Tim Wendleboe calls it "wood" if he is talking about the same issue - and I strongly suspect he is.

    Add to that that different grinders have radically different particle spreads - the more even the spread the finer the grind and the more flavour that can be extracted (that is a mini novel in itself).

    Then espresso machines also have varying shot grunt - my standard grind for Lineas / 6910s completely chokes some well regarded commercial machines (i.e. those that have far less shot grunt).

    So to balance a shot with for any given setup may result in some other setup needing entirely different grind settings. Know your gear.

    Hope this clarifies more than obfuscates.

    TampIt
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Very helpful, TampIt.
    Who imagines at the beginning of their coffee journey that down the track they will be thinking about hundreds of variables that come into play in different ways with different gear and bean.
    And of course you never stop learning.
    It could easily be overwhelming if you didn't just force yourself to take it a step at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...Who imagines at the beginning of their coffee journey that down the track they will be thinking about hundreds of variables that come into play in different ways with different gear and bean...
    Damned hobbies, why do they always have to become so complicated and expensive?

    Ps wouldn't have it any other way.

  16. #16
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Yyyeeeep... another example. My last bean was a free sample blend a roaster brought to our cafe which I took home to try. The setting on my Sette to get a 1:2 shot was 11B.

    Am now trying out my 11 days post-roast Ethiopian Sidamo natural, pulled a shot on setting 12B (fair coarser, as I knew it would need it), and it was STILL a suuuper slow pour, 22.5g in and 23g out in 36s, double ristretto basically haha.

    Gonna coarsen it up to 13A. Such a dramatic difference required, seeing as though the beans are all ground to roughly the same particle size!

    Still curious about what makes certain beans need such a big difference in grind.. (well technically they're not really THAT big a difference in grind, still espresso range. Espresso and plunger grind is a more significant difference XD )

    Edit: nup, 13A was far too slow still, had to go even coarser up to 14B the next shot to get it goin!
    Last edited by simonsk8r; 11th May 2019 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Addition

  17. #17
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Still curious about what makes certain beans need such a big difference in grind.. (well technically they're not really THAT big a difference in grind, still espresso range. Espresso and plunger grind is a more significant difference XD )
    Interesting Simon, I don't experience this, my grind settings change very little from one batch to the next, I usually open up two or three graduations on the Mini for a new batch, then as the batch ages I gradually tighten the grind by a similar amount, my grind settings never change by more than about 2 clicks either side of what I have established as a median setting, regardless of bean variety.
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  18. #18
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    Yep, same here too...
    Maybe it's just the difference in the way a Sette is adjusted that gives the impression to a non-Sette user of a significant change.

    Mal.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Wives are funny creatures - or maybe husbands are the strange ones ;
    Just spent a few days in the Capital seeing a show and wandering the streets the way yokels from the bush do.
    Sitting on the deck at home this morning, doing our usual coffee with the Son and 'Mother' comments that when we go 'on hols' her only concern is that 'Father' gets good coffee and good lunch.
    Son thought that was pretty reasonable.
    I pointed out that I don't give a rats about holidays and that the only thing I care about is 'good coffee' and 'good lunch' and after that Wife can call the shots and I will happily run with whatever she wants to do.
    Funny how people don't always give you credit for the things you do well - only focus on what they see as a negative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    ...Wife can call the shots and I will happily run with whatever she wants to do...
    Some poor deluded men think they'll ensure marital harmony by giving in to their wifes - au contraire. A woman can love a weak man but she won't respect him. You have to swing it so that she thinks she has overcome your manly strength with her feminine charms.

    Ps tyranny won't cut it - intelligence will.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCD View Post
    Ps tyranny won't cut it - intelligence will.
    And therein lies the rub! so many people in this day and age educated well beyond their intelligence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCD View Post
    Some poor deluded men think they'll ensure marital harmony by giving in to their wifes - au contraire. A woman can love a weak man but she won't respect him. You have to swing it so that she thinks she has overcome your manly strength with her feminine charms.

    Ps tyranny won't cut it - intelligence will.

    You're definitely the boss in your household, you were heard shouting by neighbours, "If I want to steam my glasses before washing up and making the bed, I will".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erimus View Post
    You're definitely the boss in your household, you were heard shouting by neighbours, "If I want to steam my glasses before washing up and making the bed, I will".
    Not everyone can grasp the concept.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    And therein lies the rub! so many people in this day and age educated well beyond their intelligence.
    Some even lack the wherewithal to mount a counter argument and resort to sarcasm instead.
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    It's really hard to get a handle on the interplay of even the basic coffee extraction issues into perspective.
    I made a really big mistake early on when I used 3 day old ground coffee and found that I could not get anywhere near the pressure profiles I expected in a Cremina.
    Eventually found out that if the grind is more than 30 minutes old the same grind level will allow the water to pass through much more easily, (it behaves like a courser ground coffee in the portafilter) and this is normal coffee behaviour.
    I've since wandered what causes this, is it that grinders crush and compress beans as part of the grinding process, then as the grind relaxes back to its norm the surface area of each particle increases, so the grind effectively becomes "courser" with time.
    Anybody measured this ?

    If we could nail one extraction interaction and it's percentage contribution at a time, I for one would be really grateful for the ability to move forward.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCD View Post
    Some even lack the wherewithal to mount a counter argument and resort to sarcasm instead.
    Didn't mean it as sarcasm OCD, I'm serious, so many highly educated around now who seem to have a problem grasping basic living skills.

    I will certainly join the fray if I think the subject worthy of debate.
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  27. #27
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowytec View Post
    It's really hard to get a handle on the interplay of even the basic coffee extraction issues into perspective.
    I made a really big mistake early on when I used 3 day old ground coffee and found that I could not get anywhere near the pressure profiles I expected in a Cremina.
    Eventually found out that if the grind is more than 30 minutes old the same grind level will allow the water to pass through much more easily, (it behaves like a courser ground coffee in the portafilter) and this is normal coffee behaviour.
    I've since wandered what causes this, is it that grinders crush and compress beans as part of the grinding process, then as the grind relaxes back to its norm the surface area of each particle increases, so the grind effectively becomes "courser" with time.
    Anybody measured this ?

    If we could nail one extraction interaction and it's percentage contribution at a time, I for one would be really grateful for the ability to move forward.
    Do you buy ground coffee Snowy, I've found ground coffee starts to degrade within a few minutes of grinding, after a week its almost useless as espresso.

    A decent grinder is certainly an asset if your after quality espresso, and of course grinding immediately before use, after an hour its degraded significantly.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Didn't mean it as sarcasm OCD, I'm serious, so many highly educated around now who seem to have a problem grasping basic living skills.

    I will certainly join the fray if I think the subject worthy of debate.
    Sorry, aim must be a bit off. You weren't the intended target.

    Ps I agree, no shortage of educated idiots about and, after watching '4 Corners' last week, I'm expecting many more of them - real soon.

    Ps 2 These people will most likely, by virtue of their officially documented mental superiority, end up making important decisions for the rest of us. Something to think about the next time you are being wheeled into an operating theatre.

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    Yelta.
    I've been roasting and grinding my own coffee for about two years now, our main grinder is a Profitec T64.
    We started this coffee journey trying to improve comfort levels on long trips in an off road camper.
    Because we where always exploring and on the move I would grind about 4 days of coffee at a time, this worked OK using a plunger, but the pour was impossible to get right when I installed an Electra Lever, (much too fast at any decent extraction pressure).
    I found that ground coffee is a lot more volatile than expected and the age of the grind greatly influences any of the other extraction variations that I was trying to understand and control.

    I was wandering if anybody had looked at what happens to particle size during the first hour under a microscope ?
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  30. #30
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowytec View Post
    Yelta.
    I've been roasting and grinding my own coffee for about two years now, our main grinder is a Profitec T64.
    We started this coffee journey trying to improve comfort levels on long trips in an off road camper.
    Because we where always exploring and on the move I would grind about 4 days of coffee at a time, this worked OK using a plunger, but the pour was impossible to get right when I installed an Electra Lever, (much too fast at any decent extraction pressure).
    I found that ground coffee is a lot more volatile than expected and the age of the grind greatly influences any of the other extraction variations that I was trying to understand and control.

    I was wandering if anybody had looked at what happens to particle size during the first hour under a microscope ?
    Morning Snowy, interesting, we also do quite a bit of traveling in a motor home, in fact heading off this AM for a few days.

    I also home roast, have been for many years, found out early on that pre grinding was not the way to go, have never done the microscope thing, we now carry a hand grinder and use it combined with a Flair, pre ground however does seem to hold up reasonably well for use in a French press.
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    We've been using a Tasmanian made conical hand grinder in the camper for about 8 years, great for the courser grind required for plunger, very slow for fine Espresso grinds.
    We originally started roasting with camper gas using an FZ-RR 700 baby roaster, these are really great small and light, (one is now permanently stored in the camper) allows us to take a variety of green beans on our journeys.
    The Hottop we use at home is much more precise, (but no better in what can be achieved).
    The roasts from a "baby roaster" really can be used the next day, which is also camper friendly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowytec View Post
    We've been using a Tasmanian made conical hand grinder in the camper ....

    The roasts from a "baby roaster" really can be used the next day, which is also camper friendly.
    Tell us more about the hand grinder! Pics? Have I been chasing overseas all this time when there is one right under my nose?

    I'll second the Baby Roaster. Often wish I had not passed mine on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otago View Post
    Tell us more about the hand grinder! Pics? Have I been chasing overseas all this time when there is one right under my nose?

    I'll second the Baby Roaster. Often wish I had not passed mine on.
    Otago,
    Go to Indeco - Manufacturer of hydraulic breakers, hammers and attachments in construction, demolition and aggregate industry.
    We have one in Huon and a backup in Blackwood - you can choose your wood preference.
    Been around $400 for 10 years.
    Very solid mechanism is Spade an Italian grinder manufacturer.
    Fill it to the top, grind to empty and the dose is just right for an 8 cup plunger full of long black.
    Grind adjustment is via a lever, you move and lock in place
    Simple, beautiful, bulletproof - sort of stuff you can't buy anymore.

    A good second hand one should last forever.
    Plunger grinds are wonderful, but it would not suite finer Espresso grinds.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowytec View Post
    Otago,
    Go to Indeco - Manufacturer of hydraulic breakers, hammers and attachments in construction, demolition and aggregate industry.
    We have one in Huon and a backup in Blackwood - you can choose your wood preference.
    Been around $400 for 10 years.
    Very solid mechanism is Spade an Italian grinder manufacturer.
    Fill it to the top, grind to empty and the dose is just right for an 8 cup plunger full of long black.
    Grind adjustment is via a lever, you move and lock in place
    Simple, beautiful, bulletproof - sort of stuff you can't buy anymore.

    A good second hand one should last forever.
    Plunger grinds are wonderful, but it would not suite finer Espresso grinds.
    To all the confused following this its Indeco.net.au NOT Indeco.com.au - although demolition gear could be used for some "interesting" grinds.
    Thanks for the heads up Otago.

  35. #35
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by snowytec View Post
    To all the confused following this its Indeco.net.au NOT Indeco.com.au - although demolition gear could be used for some "interesting" grinds.
    Thanks for the heads up Otago.
    https://www.indeco.net.au/product/coffee-grinder/

    Ps for those who are still confused.



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