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Thread: Double ristretto base - commercial

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    Double ristretto base - commercial

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Ive noticed a few good cafes have been using a double ristretto as the base for their standard drinks, eg. if you order a flat white you get a 30ml double shot for the base.

    Was wondering what others thought about this. I think its nice personally.

    What would you pour if someone asked for a double then?

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    I dont get out and about to visit cafes much but at home, that is the basis for nearly every drink I make. Sometimes, for a change, Ill adjust the grind slightly so as to produce a full shot but even then I tend to pull them slightly faster than the so-called "ideal", cutting them off at around 22-23 seconds. Makes for a really sweet and creamy shot that realises accents of the coffee otherwise missed I reckon. Ristrettos(Doubles) are still the mainstay though..... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    I reckon it depends on the type of coffee youre using. Some coffees Ive found need that extra run to get a fuller, more rounded flavour.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    For milk based drinks it has merit, but I hate when I order an espresso and I am served a double ristretto.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    thats what I got today, ordered a macchiato and got a double ristretto mac. Was very nice though. I think i prefer it that way but I would like to know thats what im getting without having to work it out and ask.


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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer Roaster link=1216451409/0#3 date=1216455877
    For milk based drinks it has merit, but I hate when I order an espresso and I am served a double ristretto.
    Same.... I mean I want it to last more than 1/2 a second ;D
    ....but seriously, its annoying when I ask for a doppio espresso, and get a doppio ristretto

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Up on the coast you even say doppio and they look at you like a stunned mullet... sort of stops you from pronouncing ristretto next.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by BrighterSide link=1216451409/0#6 date=1216507877
    Up on the coast you even say doppio and they look at you like a stunned mullet... sort of stops you from pronouncing ristretto next.
    Yeah- amazing that they use a machine and many would call themselves baristi (In the "Im a barister" sense ;)) and yet they dont know the makes of their tools.

    What if you asked a mechanic for a spanner and was presented with a screwdriver? :-? ;D

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Same.... I mean I want it to last more than 1/2 a second
    ....but seriously, its annoying when I ask for a doppio espresso, and get a doppio ristretto
    Yeeza, while in Ballarat recently I asked for a double Espresso, but I got some wierd looks and the girl serving asked me if that was just black coffee no milk. I said to her it is 2 shots of espresso poured in the 1 cup. I got a standard espresso sinlge shot.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by martybean link=1216451409/0#8 date=1216513836
    * Same.... I mean I want it to last more than 1/2 a second *
    ....but seriously, its annoying when I ask for a doppio espresso, and get a doppio ristretto * *
    I got a standard espresso sinlge shot.
    Sure it wasnt just a double ristretto ;D ;D

    Thats when you change your order last minute for a tea haha

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Naah i think it was to weak and thin to be a double ristretto.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    ESPRESSO MACCHIATO FIORDILATTE - try getting this one at Gloria Jeans! ::)

    My wife brought home the name and "recipe" from a mate at work. It took me a few times to "do the cream" as I was making butter it seemed, but it has become my new afternoon sensation!

    It is an espresso ristretto with a dash of steamed double cream. 8-)


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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1216451409/0#1 date=1216452087
    I dont get out and about to visit cafes much but at home, that is the basis for nearly every drink I make. Sometimes, for a change, Ill adjust the grind slightly so as to produce a full shot but even then I tend to pull them slightly faster than the so-called "ideal", cutting them off at around 22-23 seconds. Makes for a really sweet and creamy shot that realises accents of the coffee otherwise missed I reckon. Ristrettos(Doubles) are still the mainstay though..... 8-)

    Mal.
    Ive been messing around with varying my dose lately.

    I find that 14-15g 30ml shots seem to be ideal for the lighter blends.


    Recently i got some darker beans, and the 14-15g 30ml shots were just waay too strong for a single 180ml latte. But the 15g shots split nicely between two cups. The minimum i can fit into a sunbeam single basket is about 11g. Still too much for the darker blend im using now.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by ezralimm link=1216451409/0#12 date=1216535463

    Ive been messing around with varying my dose lately.

    I find that 14-15g 30ml shots seem to be ideal for the lighter blends.
    Thats another thing Id like to test out. How much coffee you can stick in a basket and still get a good shot. I get nice 25ml shots sometimes from the 7gm single basket in 25sec. Which is different to 50ml from 14gm in 25sec.
    So what would taste better if you put 2 of the single group shots into one cup and served it beside the doppio?

    So how much coffee? Would it help if the basket was a bigger diameter say 75mm instead of 58 so the coffee passes through more evenly and gets out the other side quicker?


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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    hmm personally the most coffee i would extract from a 14gm basket would be 30mls after that i think youre going to get added volume but not added flavour. For added complexity try upping to larger baskets say 12gm for a single & 20gm for a double but still cutting your pours short to 25ml & 40ml respectively & you will notice an immediate difference in flavour & intensity.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Personally, I agree with YeeZa - I think that it depends on the blend and, probably, on the machine. If, for example, you have a blend of all washed coffees that is relatively lightly roasted, a double ristretto will probably make for a milk drink with much more body. If that blend were instead comprised of, say, pulped naturals and roasted to a medium level, a double ristretto will probably still be a great base for a milk-based drink, but a full-length single 30ml espresso base will also make for a nice coffee. If you have an e61 machine and it takes a long time before you see the first drips, there is probably less need to restrict your shots than if your pressure ramped up faster.

    Pat, I usually find that increasing intensity decreases complexity.

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1216451409/0#15 date=1217088280
    I usually find that increasing intensity decreases complexity.
    i agree, not only complexity but the balance changes completely. Of course certain coffees will take to resticted pours more than others, but I really enjoy the higher notes and delicate acidity that you can balance with body of an espresso over a ristretto.

  18. #18
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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    totally agree. Though on positive point, i think tuning up the grind to pull a double rist. is a good way to make terrible coffee drinkable ;)

    And personally I hate when I order a drink and I comes with a double ristretto as the base. If thats what I wanted, I would have ordered it that way, but each to their own.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    The other side of this discussion to look at is the effect of restricting the pour while maintaining the espresso characteristics. What I mean by this is the loose term ristretto does not have a defined volume. Also the deffinition of an espresso is 25-35 ml in 20-30 secs (according to AASCA).

    a 25ml espresso poured in 30 secs is going to taste a lot more restricted than a 35ml espresso poured in 20 secs.

    So for every espresso we pour we have to decide how much to restrict it to achieve the desired result. There are a number of ways of doing this namely dose, grind, basket size. In a commercial setting these need to be fixed for consistency.

    We opt for a 18gm basket but severly down-dose. Our actual ideal dose is 17 grams and we pour 25-28 ml in 26-28 secs. We find for our house blend that this works well with the perfect intensity - complexity relationship.

    With our single origins however it is decided while dialling in the grind and often changed as the coffee does. At the moment we are also serving a Kenyan Dorman AA which needs to be a touch under 25 ml with a higher dose, of course this will change as the coffee ages.

    Without offending anyone (hopefully) I have known alot of people, myself included, who have at some point sworn ristretto over espresso. As their palletts have developed and their minds opened to different styles of coffee and baristas they start really enjoy espresso over ristretto. I can see the merits of ristretto bases but personally would look at working on roasting, blending and buying to achieve similar if not better results in the cup.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    As a wide eyed newb to home espresso I find all of the above, and in particular what Pioneer Roaster has written, very interesting.

    Ive found trying to stick to a firm timed outcome extremely challenging. Just as Im sure my dose will vary by maybe 0.5gm, it is pretty consistent as is my tamp. What my experience has taught me to this point is that throughout the day the grind has to be tweaked. But thats where it gets interesting in relation to PRs post above...

    Ive run shots say, early morning, using last nights grind setting. It becomes clear that the flow is "tighter" than optimal and if I cut the double shot after 25 seconds Ill end up with only about 30 - 40 ml. Sometimes Ive instead just watched what is coming out of the spout. While it has crema and some striation Ive let it go resulting in a 60 ml double in maybe 45 seconds! :o And its tasted magnificent! :-/ :o When Ive cut it dutifully at the 25-30 second mark its tasted "hollow" and lacking.

    Again, stressing my inexperience, Ive found that the poor shots are usually the quick ones - two coarse, poor tamp or channeled. Its probably wrong but because of this I tend to stray to a finer grind and allow it it take that little longer to produce my shot. It seems to suit my taste buds perfectly. :-?

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Ive made a few coffees on a VBM the same as yours Wrecker and find a 35 sec shot is very nice to drink, comes back to the different machines and the fact that its good to learn the standard but then play around till you find what you like.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmyb link=1216451409/20#20 date=1217200262
    Ive made a few coffees on a VBM the same as yours Wrecker and find a 35 sec shot is very nice to drink, comes back to the different machines and the fact that its good to learn the standard but then play around till you find what you like.
    Thanks Jimmyb, that actually helps. Im now 4 weeks into this journey and have found that for me and my machine longer is better. I have several regular "customers" ;) who have all agreed. I also dont count from pulling the handle. I start the count from the moment the pressure ramps and the fluid begins to pour.

    Two things sent me down this path. I read a review somewhere about "the perfect shot" in which the author wrote about watching the pour and staying with it whilst there was crema and striation. The second was one night with guests arriving while I was "dialling in the grind" for the dinner party. I ran two "long" shots and declared that the grind was too fine. I set them aside while I made the last tweak to bring it towards the 25 second pour. My two early arrivals grabbed the "too long" ones and decided to sip them before I could toss em and declared them to be wonderful. I proudly produced my 25 second 60 ml perfecto and when they tried it they declared the rejects much smoother and more balanced. I took the punt based on that advice (I was afterall making coffee for my guests) and reverted to the finer grind and longer shot. All guests declared the coffees I served after dinner to be among the best theyd ever had and despite the caffeine all went for seconds. Ive stuck with tighter longer duration shots ever since...

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecker link=1216451409/0#19 date=1217198287
    As a wide eyed newb to home espresso I find all of the above, and in particular what Pioneer Roaster has written, very interesting.

    Ive found trying to stick to a firm timed outcome extremely challenging. *Just as Im sure my dose will vary by maybe 0.5gm, it is pretty consistent as is my tamp. *What my experience has taught me to this point is that throughout the day the grind has to be tweaked. *But thats where it gets interesting in relation to PRs post above...

    Ive run shots say, early morning, using last nights grind setting. *It becomes clear that the flow is "tighter" than optimal and if I cut the double shot after 25 seconds Ill end up with only about 30 - 40 ml. *Sometimes Ive instead just watched what is coming out of the spout. *While it has crema and some striation Ive let it go resulting in a 60 ml double in maybe 45 seconds! *:o *And its tasted magnificent! *:-/ :o *When Ive cut it dutifully at the 25-30 second mark its tasted "hollow" and lacking.

    Again, stressing my inexperience, Ive found that the poor shots are usually the quick ones - two coarse, poor tamp or channeled. *Its probably wrong but because of this I tend to stray to a finer grind and allow it it take that little longer to produce my shot. *It seems to suit my taste buds *perfectly. *:-?
    What the flow looks like and then of course what it tastes like is much more important than the numbers.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    when I want a dopio ristretto I order one, when I want a milk coffee based on a dopio ristretto, I order one
    I would hate if someone served me a dopio ristretto when I just ordered a short black or a latte, just like the other way around...
    I mean, if they just do it - its no good. In some cafes they say "this SO we have on special will be very nice as a latte if you make a double shot base", then its a recommendation, then its different, I would never say no, if the barista recommends something - he/she knows their blends better than I do...

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Fair call chartres, but that is only if they know...

    Like all of us most likely, Ive taken a keen interest of late when Im walking past or visiting cafes / coffee joints. In most if not all the machines are semi autos and in a great many they pull the shots into shot glasses with little measure lines. In one place I sat in with a good possie to observe they had this handled grinder. Theyd load the PF, hit a button and out would come a no doubt "measured" dose. Then theyd pull this handle thingy that did the tamping. The problem was (in my opinion) that heaps of grounds spilled out during the dosing then even more during the tamping. Then theyd load the PF into one of the 3 groups going and put these shot glasses under the spout(s) to catch the shot. The 3 groups were delivering slightly different level shots. Just to add spice to the observations, the shot glasses were constantly recycled. In the 30 minutes I observed never was a new clean one introduced or an old one cleaned.

    When my wife finally arrived from whatever shop she was in (hence me waiting and using the time...) I said to her based on what I observed that I could definitely make coffee to that particular places quality...Use a dirty shot glass, haphazardly fill the PF and just squash it into place, run the shot "there or there abouts" and viola! I wont mention how many times they used the same milk jug with bits of old milk and froth in it before someone thought it might be a good idea to wash it out.

    Frankly, that Barista couldve recommended anything to me and I wouldve politely declined.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1216451409/0#15 date=1217088280
    If you have an e61 machine and it takes a long time before you see the first drips, there is probably less need to restrict your shots than if your pressure ramped up faster.
    Hi Luca

    I’m really interested in knowing more about this. *Does it mean that if you are trying to work by the numbers (ie aiming for 30ml in 30secs single espresso) that you wouldn’t start the timing until the flow starts?

    cheers

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1216451409/20#26 date=1217293264
    I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.
    Hi TG,

    I think that for those who have machines with inbuilt pre-infusion, its difficult to suggest a count based on flicking a switch or raising a lever- For example, a Minore II infusion is much slower than that on other brands. Once you know your machine, I guess its possible in your specific case.

    That said, I never count. For me its about the balance of the shot to produce the best espresso. Making a pour conform with a "rule" is not always the best answer....

    Chris

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecker link=1216451409/20#24 date=1217224974
    Fair call chartres, but that is only if they know...

    ...
    Frankly, that Barista couldve recommended anything to me and I wouldve politely declined.
    well, you are right, of course... I am not sure, though, that in that place barista would have recommended you double shot for your milk drink because of a particular profile of the roast... I mean they probably didnt have a clue in the first place...
    I was more talking about a place where I know people take their coffee seriously or at least give that impression. If you ask for a dopio ristretto and you see puzzled eyes looking back at you, thats probably reason enough to change order for tea right that moment ;-)
    However, the topic started with a reference to a cafe where they chose to use dopio ristretto as a base for their drinks, presumably knowing the basic stuff and presumably wanting to achieve some specific effect (albeit without asking customers ;-), but who knows, maybe they were right, in fact. Maybe their roast was showing particularly good in a latte when it was a dopio ristretto... Knowing that they did it on purpose, however, would be nice.

  30. #30
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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Extraction of the shot should include pre-infusion.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Im with Chris. Every machine is different and I think counting is a guide, not a rule. If you decide to time the shot it doesnt matter when you start, as long as you start at the same point in the process, every time.

    Isnt it more important to make a determination based on what you see pouring into the cup?

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Guys, I keep stressing Im very new to this so pinch of salt if necessary - my process is based on results and taste with my gear. I started taking notes on day one so Id have observations to go back to. My posts are based on those observations.

    Every time I changed beans - and as stated during the day with the same beans - I studiously adjusted grind for the magical approx 25 seconds (from pressure ramp). I was and still am convinced that my dose and tamp procedure is consistent enough for only the smallest variation as not to matter (+/- a second).

    The problem was the results - which at the end of all we do and say is what matters. Grinding finer and pulling longer (more of a mouse tail instead of rat tail...whatever that means anyway) was delivering far superior tasting shots both short black and flat white. The 25 second shots were good, just not AS good and it is now via about 10 sets of taste buds - not just mine.

    I dont question the guide or suggest in any way it is wrong. I just found for me and mine I needed to add time to it. And if the rule of thumb is to count from the handle coming up well...add another 4 seconds! :D

    I find watching the colour and consistency of what is coming out of the spout(s) is my BEST indicator of wether itll be good, bad or somewhere in between.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Ill take colour over seconds every time.

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Wrecker, stick with what youre doing - if it works for you, and your customers then hang the rules! ;)

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Thank you TG and Dennis. I felt it was time I went out on a limb and posted what Ive been doing. To get support and encouragement removes the last of the lingering doubt...

    As ridiculous as this may sound, my wife the (formerly) non coffee drinker proved to be probably my best indicator. She now has her "long shot" every morning (short black cut a tad short with about 20 ml hot water added). Since giving up the 25 second theory and strangling it out to 35-40 seconds (which makes her sort of ristretto shot about 25 -30) she has declared the shots to be consistent, and more importantly superior in taste and balance to the first one that got her hooked in the first place. She also adds that theres no "twinge" - which after tasting one I presume is her way of saying the acidity and other flavours are balanced.

    Now she complains that the two times shes tried to show off her new found fondness for coffee with workmates at cafes the experience has been abysmal. Im kinda taking some pride in that. :)

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    Re: Double ristretto base - commercial

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1216451409/20#27 date=1217293840
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1216451409/20#26 date=1217293264
    I thought the accepted view was that you started counting from when you flick the switch/lever.
    Hi TG,

    I think that for those who have machines with inbuilt pre-infusion, its difficult to suggest a count based on flicking a switch or raising a lever- For example, a Minore II infusion is much slower than that on other brands. Once you know your machine, I guess its possible in your specific case.

    That said, I never count. For me its about the balance of the shot to produce the best espresso. Making a pour conform with a "rule" is not always the best answer....

    Chris
    Yeah some good points being raised here. Things differ from machine to machine. Like Chris has said, the Minore II has a slower infusion than others. I used to read things like if the pour isnt coming through after 7 seconds thats it, sink shot. ok, maybe not sink shot but used to freak me out that sometimes I wasnt getting any pour after 8-9 seconds. That was when I first got the machine. Ive learnt to adjust and realise that this brain box is giving different messages compared to other prosumers I had used. Ive noticed slight differences in the ramp pressure/speed also in other machines. All part of the learning curve.
    I rarely time my pours. Mainly only when Im running a new bean or adjusting the grinder back from a courser (for syphon or p-over), or sometimes just for the heck of it. When I do time, its from the time I lift the lever. But I always go by colour.

    I reckon youve gotta add in pre-infusion to your pours when timing - I mean the coffee has started brewing.

    my 2.02c



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