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Thread: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

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    Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all,

    Im new to CS so hello everybody :) Im situated in Melbourne and enjoy drinking great coffee at places like Seven Seeds, but it is now time for me to start making some great coffee at home.

    Im going to go the do it once and do it properly route rather than buying and selling equipemnt and losing money in the process, but its a big world out there so I thought I would tackle things one thing at a time. First - the grinder. Ill purchase a grinder for now and use my stovetop and them will buy a coffee machine to suit early next year.

    I want a grinder that fits into a small space, remains clean and is easy to maintain. I only make 1-2 coffees per day. These requirements lead me to the smaller doserless grinders. If price wasnt an object, it appears my choices are:

    - Macap M4D
    - Compak K3 touch
    - Mazzer Mini-e
    - Mahlkonig Vario

    Are there others I should consider? Recommendations?

    The Mahlkonig Vatio seems to be building a big reputation among the best of the full size grinders which is quite appealing to me, but where can I buy one in Australia?

    Guidance on this would be greatly appreciated. Be kind to the noob :-[

  2. #2
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I have used the Macap M4D and its been absolutely wonderful to use

    KK

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    If you are after a small but good grinder have a look at the Iberital Challenge, Ascaso i-Mini and LeLit PL53 as well. They are all stepless and also much cheaper than the ones you mentioned already. I am considering getting the Challenge as I am on a tight budget and it seems to offer the best performance for the lowest price

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I had the Iberital Challenge and it was a little beauty for the price...I gave it to a mate when I caught upgraditis and had to have a mazzer mini electronic

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Ive used the i-Mini, stepless is a nice feature and the price is light, found it very loud compared to the rocky I currently use

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 424748485F4E260 link=1257980250/3#3 date=1258018022
    I had the Iberital Challenge and it was a little beauty for the price...I gave it to a mate when I caught upgraditis and had to have a mazzer mini electronic
    I guess this is what I want to avoid. *I have a bad habit of getting upgraditis when it comes to things I love, which is why I think Im better off taking the plunge now and getting one of the more expensive options I have listed.

    I guess any of the grinders I have listed are good, so maybe I should list my priorities:
    1) Small footprint
    2) quality of grind (inlcuding low clumping and static)
    3) low grind retention
    4) easy to clean

    Also, does anybody have any idea on where I can get a Mahlkonig Vario? *Tehse seem to really review well in terms of my criteria.

    Thanks for everybodys input so far - it is much appreciated.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    What is your budget

    Would you consider a pre loved grinder
    A few gems come up from time to time on the CS Hardware for sale section

    KK

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    The Vario importer can be found from a link from the Mahlkonig page - the page says ditting but they supply the vario.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I have a K3T. Its a great grinder but a bit on the large side .The mini hopper makes it a bit smaller.

    Unfortunately it looks like as they get better they get bigger so maybe you need to change your criteria or risk upgraditis.

    If you are interested pm me as I may be persuaded to sell. I am not sure there is a cure for upgraditis.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 766A7C1E0 link=1257980250/8#8 date=1258026736
    Unfortunately it looks like as they get better they get bigger so maybe you need to change your criteria or risk upgraditis.
    Unfortunately the space on offer is a big restriction. so I guess the best I can do is determine the best machine given my restrictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by 537F6C6A777F7241537170757B671E0 link=1257980250/7#7 date=1258026732
    The Vario importer can be found from a link from the Mahlkonig page - the page says ditting but they supply the vario.
    Youre a walking legend! The more reviews I read about this machine, the more convinced I am about it. Im close to choosing this unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by 557178787B7B4155716D73711E0 link=1257980250/6#6 date=1258024455
    What is your budget
    Somewhere between $800 and $1,500 (if it can be justified)


    Would you consider a pre loved grinder
    I have given this some thought, and have a preference for a new grinder.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    tbh, not sure why your budget doesnt go higher eg. Compak K10, or include a dosered grinder.

    I think htb summed it up most accurately, but what space does it need to fit in?

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A47464D574A575A230 link=1257980250/10#10 date=1258064613
    tbh, not sure why your budget doesnt go higher eg. Compak K10, or include a dosered grinder.

    I think htb summed it up most accurately, but what space does it need to fit in?
    My budget could go higher, although its starting to stretch it out - and unless there is a MAJOR difference in taste between say a Mahlkonig and a K10 for example Id be happier to spend a little less.

    From reading other forums that are US based (sorry CS, but theres just not that much info on this unit here) the Mahlkonig is being compared against quite top-end units and has become the grinder of choice for cupping on coffeegeek and other reputable information sources. This leads me to believe that you CAN possibly have a prosumer unit out there that can grind as well as a machine twice its size.

    I have a small amount of space between my cooktop and corner wall that I need both the grinder and coffee machine to fit, so larger grinders such as a Super Jolly, K10, Robur-e etc. are simply too large. In the end, a product needs to suit ones needs, and a large grinder will be too impractical for my small kitchen.

    In terms of why I prefer to go doserless, there are three reasons:
    1) I only will be making between one and two coffees a day, so there is no need for a doser.
    2) A doserless will be easier to clean and maintain
    3) There will be less wastage

    Hopefully you can understand my position on this one :)

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    1) I only will be making between one and two coffees a day, so there is no need for a doser. What will you do when everyone finds out you make good coffee and thay all drop in at once?

    2) A doserless will be easier to clean and maintain Possibly, but see next answer.

    3) There will be less wastage I disagree.
    I have almost zero waste with my dosered Macap.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=mignon_istantaneo





    For those of you that know me....the above is my shortest post in recorded history, where I actually havent written anything of my own! :D

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 122631273C0B173B32323131540 link=1257980250/13#13 date=1258091414
    http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=mignon_istantaneo
    Far out, thats one sexy grinder they have there. Wonder what the damage is for the said beast?

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E4B5C5E5D390 link=1257980250/14#14 date=1258113639
    Quote Originally Posted by 122631273C0B173B32323131540 link=1257980250/13#13 date=1258091414
    http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=mignon_istantaneo
    Far out, thats one sexy grinder they have there. Wonder what the damage is for the said beast?
    See previous post.....

    Attilio is not saying ;D

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Gota love the lolly jar hopper

    http://www.eureka.co.it/home.php?id=fashion

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Price hasnt been confirmed to me yet but I would expect somewhere between $500.00 & $600.00 as this is a micro sized commercial grinder rather than a domestic grinder.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I found it here in Australia for $520.00. About to order one.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 26120513083F230F06060505600 link=1257980250/17#17 date=1258149889
    this is a micro sized commercial grinder
    With 50mm flat burrs, what is it that makes this commercial? Does it have a duty cycle massively better than 30s on/30s off? Or is this just hyperbole?

    @1350RPM id be worried that this grinder would be getting very, very hot, very, very quickly, and be happier having slower output rather than baked grounds. YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by 11090B3F1308090614600 link=1257980250/11#11 date=1258081501
    unless there is a MAJOR difference in taste between say a Mahlkonig and a K10
    If youre in Sydney, I know a few people, myself included, who are convinced that big conicals deliver the result in the cup. Thats why I have two ;)...if youre in Sydney, you might want to try-before-you-get-buyers-remorse (and have a look at how little space they take up!)

    Quote Originally Posted by 11090B3F1308090614600 link=1257980250/11#11 date=1258081501
    for cupping
    is the operative word. flat burr grinders for cupping (and particularly this grinder) dont have the same particle size distribution (and this one particularly has fewer fines), making it great for cupping. I wouldnt buy one for espresso though - perhaps consider how many people at the world barista championships this year used the supplied grinder ;)

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    OK like I first said theres alot for me to learn, but firstly the Vario grinds at 1,000 rpm.

    click on the pdf link on this page for more info http://www.mahlkoenig.de/en_products/VARIO-home.html

    This is less than any of the other grinders I have posted, include the Mazzer mini.

    I did notice a post about the Vario having inconsistent grinds but the taste in the cup being comnparable to larger grinders.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D40414A504D505D240 link=1257980250/19#19 date=1258193620
    is the operative word. flat burr grinders for cupping (and particularly this grinder) dont have the same particle size distribution (and this one particularly has fewer fines), making it great for cupping. I wouldnt buy one for espresso though
    OK, so even though the taste in the cup is good, can please help explain why it wouldnt be suitable for espresso?

    I know people on this forum seem to be keen for me to get a larger grinder, but my kitchen doesnt permit, so I need to consider the grinders in my original post.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 0D20212A302D303D440 link=1257980250/19#19 date=1258193620
    With 50mm flat burrs, what is it that makes this commercial? Does it have a duty cycle massively better than 30s on/30s off? Or is this just hyperbole?

    @1350RPM id be worried that this grinder would be getting very, very hot, very, very quickly, and be happier having slower output rather than baked grounds. YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by 11090B3F1308090614600 link=1257980250/11#11 date=1258081501
    unless there is a MAJOR difference in taste between say a Mahlkonig and a K10
    If youre in Sydney, I know a few people, myself included, who are convinced that big conicals deliver the result in the cup. Thats why I have two ;)...if youre in Sydney, you might want to try-before-you-get-buyers-remorse (and have a look at how little space they take up!)
    From the manufacturer:
    "........
    Mignon instant grinder is a fundamental partner to all baristas that wish to satisfy their customers needs with decaffeinated or “gourmet” coffees. Notwithstanding its dimensions, Mignon Istantaneo guarantees the same grinding quality and many other features as all other Eureka professional grinders. These relevant features make Mignon the perfect instant grinder to offer your customers an alternative to the traditional blend.

    Professional grind burr assembly;
    Micrometric grind regulation;
    etc......"

    Please look at the difference in the standard of build and performance in like sized domestic and commercial grinders, for example, a Lux / Isomac Professional / Challenge, VS the likes of Mignon or Rocky. Chalk and cheese, you wouldnt run small volume *(eg decaff) secondary cafe use coffee through a Lux/Isomac/Challenge but you can do it through a Mignon / Rocky.

    This is predominantly a retail client coffee special interest site and for most of those clients, who at home is going to get their grinder hot? Very few would make more than 4 cups in a sitting.

    With regard to the old conical VS flats chestnut, when asked which was"better", the owner of the Macap grinder company wouldnt give a straight answer other than to say, whichever you think gives the better result. The idea being we are all individuals amd one mans version of "better" is not necessarily anothers.

    For the record, I dont sell the Mignon (although I am looking into it) so this is all academic. Gik shift asked about small footprint grinders and this is simply another for him to think about and accept or reject as he sees fit.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    very first commercial CS site sponsor

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Hi qik_shift,

    Just a quick note. If a grinder is good for "cupping", it does not necessarily mean that it gives good results when grinding for "espresso".

    As I learnt last week at 7seeds, "cupping" is a completely different way of making coffee. It involves a cup, coffee and a spoon; no machine or water pressure. Thus, I would imagine that grinding for "cupping" has not much in common with grinding for espresso.

    The Vario looks nice though. :)

    Good luck with your search

    Daniel

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 54515E41300 link=1257980250/22#22 date=1258328508
    Hi qik_shift,

    Just a quick note. If a grinder is good for "cupping", it does not necessarily mean that it gives good results when grinding for "espresso".

    As I learnt last week at 7seeds, "cupping" is a completely different way of making coffee. It involves a cup, coffee and a spoon; no machine or water pressure. Thus, I would imagine that grinding for "cupping" has not much in common with grinding for espresso.

    The Vario looks nice though. :)

    Good luck with your search

    Daniel
    Hi Daniel,

    Thanks for your input, Im really not sure what people are referring to on US sites when they say they find the Vario a great grinder for cupping purposes. It is clear that the Vario is well-known for its ability to leave almost zero grinds in the machine, so I assumed that if you were to change coffee beans people dont have to pull the machine apart to ensure none of the old grinds are left.

    I am aware of the seven seeds cupping sessions - looking to go when I have a chance to leave work for a few hours :)

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    From a coffee perspective, you are very lucky to live in Melbourne...

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Hello qik shift,

    Re: "...ability to leave almost zero grinds in the machine, so I assumed that if you were to change coffee beans people dont have to pull the machine apart to ensure none of the old grinds are left...."

    Please dont use this as a means of eliminating or choosing a grinder.

    No one I know in coffee industry does this, the amount of grinds left over in the grinding chamber of a good name grinder once it has been run out of beans is insignificant to the character of the next lot of beans to be used, and Ive never even seen it done in the cupping labs of professional green been dealers. That of course assumes that the grinder is regularly cleaned any way and it doesnt have any gummy build up inside for fresh grinds to stick to.

    You simply run the beans out & when it has started to spin freely, stop the grinder. Use a small brush to brush the grinds out of the delivery channel, then go again with your next lot of beans.

    This simply means that any grinder you choose should have easy access to the delivery channel. This is why I dont use doserless grinders (exit tube also in the way and can carry build up, no easy access inside), and I have a preference for doser grinders without the auto on/off switch blocking access to the delivery channel.

    If you are really worried about some left over grinds from the last lot "contaminating" the new lot, after you have brushed out as described above just switch on momentarily and allow a little of the new grinds to throw out of the channel, and discard. Also, I wonder if then you have been looking at the wrong grinders for your home use because what I have just described is easily done with any good name manual or timer switched small or regular or giant sized commercial cafe doser grinder.

    Hope this helps,
    Attilio.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Hi Attilio, sorry if I came across as a personal attack! It really wasnt! It seems a great grinder for the price point, I agree - just that apart from the blocky look and stainless steel construction I dont see much commercial about it - but all manufacturers will hype their product as best they can.

    I have the same reasons as above for using a dosered grinder (and maintenance routine) but have removed the auto-stop from the BNZs for this reason!

    There are maybe 3-4% of the coffees I try which taste better off a flaat burr grinder to my palate. The last one was Fiefys Blend from CoffeeSnobs after it hit 2 weeks old.

    What about the Mazzer M7K?

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    huh M7K is a Macap not Mazzer.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    M7K *is a very good grinder but apparently doesnt fit qik shifts criteria due to size?

    There is a price advantage between it and say for example, the Compak K10 WBC (atleast in my showroom) and in the end the only difference between these two appears to be the construction of the doser units where, the WBC is constructed to cope with the type of "special" use it will get in the competition situation, and the Macap doser is constructed for use in the cafe (& remembering, that some if us feel the macap dosers are a little "better" in use than those on Mazzer units....just to confuse the issue in making off hand, personal comparisons).

    In terms of the grind quality, it should be the same given they both (K10 and M7) use the same set of burrs as far as I know.

    The major difference them in terms of a buyer who is not buying these type of grinders for competition use, *but for home use, *is the external look, and the bragging rights?

    Ok that kind of propels the discussion into higher end conical doser grinders but as already noted, the topic is about small size machines?

    This morning my chief barista and I spent a goodly amount of time killing 2 birds with one stone. While we were cupping off a new blend we designed a few days ago to see how it is progressing, we decided to compare coffees made with my usual large Macap grinder ($1260.00 new), to the "same" coffees made with grinds from an 8 year old Eureka Mignon ($550.00 new) that has been out on decaff duty.

    Neither are new, and neither have new burrs in the although they are quite good as in not worn out and needing to be changed. They are as they say....the way they come, allowing us to cup off and see how our blends will fare out in the regular market place.

    The result was interesting.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    The result was interesting.
    Teaser!

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Hi Attilio,

    you dont say whether the large macap is the M7 or M7K or MX or MXK?

    cheers,

    John

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 67534452497E624E47474444210 link=1257980250/28#28 date=1258415950
    The result was interesting.

    That deserves a ban! I had a laugh! Please share. Were the tests done blindly?

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Morning Gents,

    The grinder I use with the cupping machine is an M9 which was the precursor to the M7. It is representative of a "common" cafe grinder.

    The testing was not done blind but in as fair a manner as possible so as not to favour one or other grinder. Operator technique was as consistent as is humanly possibly.....

    How did we set up the grind? By setting up so the grind setting of the two grinders to result in the delivery of the pour, to a predetermined volume, in the same time with the same dose of grinds. *Then we cupped off. Needless to say, we had on the first grinder, set it up to find the "sweet spot" for those beans, then replicated that on the second. *

    The result was interesting, because we didnt think there was any significant difference in the character of the coffees made using the two grinders.

    One of the grinders costs half the other. *And when you consider that the greatest majority of Ausies drink milk coffees, any difference there may have been would be totally gone.

    For the majority of home users then, with a miniscule volume of through put, who are not interested in the academic side of all this......it seems they can feel comfortable that they are not missing out on anything earthshattering if they choose to spend somewhere less than a thousand on a good quality grinder for home use ( instead of being left wondering what they were missing out on because of the pressure that can be brought to bear through reading these sites).

    We will be taking this test further as time permits.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.





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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C382F39221509252C2C2F2F4A0 link=1257980250/32#32 date=1258494461
    The result was interesting, because we didnt think there was any significant difference in the character of the coffees made using the two grinders.
    So there was a difference, but you didnt think it was significant. Perhaps you could comment on the age of the burrs (in Kg maybe) for each one, and how you perceive this would affect the taste?

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C382F39221509252C2C2F2F4A0 link=1257980250/32#32 date=1258494461
    One of the grinders costs half the other. *And when you consider that the greatest majority of Ausies drink milk coffees, any difference there may have been would be totally gone.
    Why would adding milk get rid of differences in base espresso taste? Perhaps those who drink milk regularly have a more evolved palate for milk drinks than someone who drinks espresso/ristretto/lungo/americano drinks. Perhaps not. My concern is that youre dressing opinion up as fact, something were all prone to do, but that using one bean, two flat burr grinders and a non-blind test will always lead to results along the lines of those youve previously said. I love that youre a voice saying "great coffee is accessible at a reasonable grinder price", but Im not sure of the outworkings of your opinions!

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    :-? ::)

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    you know me Chris ;)

    At least I didnt say false dichotomy or particle size measurement.

    conicalgenerallyagreeswithwhatattilioissayingbutfindsconi calsearthshatteringhorse

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I think what he was saying that there wasnt a great deal of difference between the two ie not significant. Yes opinion but that is what the majority of debate on coffee forums is based on.

    I would also agree that the finer flavours of espresso are lost in milk good espresso tastes good in milk and bad espresso tastes bad in milk.

    From my limited experience with a limited number of grinders (plus some other peoples opinions who have greater experience than I) I go with the law of diminishing returns. You will get better results with a Md4 than a sunbeam but some will struggle to tell the difference and then when you move above that price range you would need good tastebuds to tell the difference. So not that a robur is not better than a $1000 grinder but for home use the difference wouldnt be that great IMHO. So as Attilo was saying the coffee out of a very expensive grinder will not be mind blowingly better than out of a good home grinder.

    Anyway just thought I would pop my opinion in on this one.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    :)

    personally, I find the taste differential greater between a big conical and a mazzer mini than a mazzer mini and a sunbeam EM0480. I started thinking the same as most snobs, but now Id prefer a $900 machine and $3000 grinder to a $3000 machine and a $900 grinder.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 775A5B504A574A473E0 link=1257980250/37#37 date=1258516500
    :)

    personally, I find the taste differential greater between a big conical and a mazzer mini than a mazzer mini and a sunbeam EM0480. I started thinking the same as most snobs, but now Id prefer a $900 machine and $3000 grinder to a $3000 machine and a $900 grinder.
    I think you would find a number of people agreeing with this statement, but for the majority of the CS population, the difference between the latter would be the most significant. And as such, Atillios comment is completely fair and reasonable and highlights the impressive quality of this cheaper grinder. You and your exquisite palate may beg to differ, but I dont think Atillio needs to be torn to shreds when he provided an assessment which would prove useful to the general CS community

  40. #40
    A_M
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 112532243F08143831313232570 link=1257980250/32#32 date=1258494461
    Morning Gents,

    The grinder I use with the cupping machine is an M9 which was the precursor to the M7. It is representative of a "common" cafe grinder.

    The testing was not done blind but in as fair a manner as possible so as not to favour one or other grinder. Operator technique was as consistent as is humanly possibly.....

    How did we set up the grind? By setting up so the grind setting of the two grinders to result in the delivery of the pour, to a predetermined volume, in the same time with the same dose of grinds. *Then we cupped off. Needless to say, we had on the first grinder, set it up to find the "sweet spot" for those beans, then replicated that on the second. *

    The result was interesting, because we didnt think there was any significant difference in the character of the coffees made using the two grinders.

    One of the grinders costs half the other. *And when you consider that the greatest majority of Ausies drink milk coffees, any difference there may have been would be totally gone.

    For the majority of home users then, with a miniscule volume of through put, who are not interested in the academic side of all this......it seems they can feel comfortable that they are not missing out on anything earthshattering if they choose to spend somewhere less than a thousand on a good quality grinder for home use ( instead of being left wondering what they were missing out on because of the pressure that can be brought to bear through reading these sites).

    We will be taking this test further as time permits.

    Regardz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.
    Thanks Attilio... While not having a PC4 lab and a controlled environment to ensure no carry over... etc etc.... You comments are supportive of what I have seen, observed and experienced.

    1: Is there a difference - Yes - How much - Subjective and dynamic.

    Conclusion.. A more expensive grinder is not just about taste... It involves many aspects as to the impact on teh product and the throughput and life expectancy of the grinder.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1E333239233E232E570 link=1257980250/37#37 date=1258516500
    but now Id prefer a $900 machine and $3000 grinder to a $3000 machine and a $900 grinder.
    Would I rather

    1: A $3000 dollar grinder and a Sivia

    OR

    2: A $900 grinder and my BFC Junior Automatic (aka La Valentina, Diadema, Vittoria)..

    Sorry.. the answer is a No Brainer.. Slam Dunk = Item 2: Any day.



  41. #41
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless


    Hi John,

    Just for a laugh, why dont I bring along a Kyocera hand grinder to the CS get together, run some beans through it and the BNZ, then have you blind taste the outcome?

    :)


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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Hello again all.

    I havent been able to come back to this until now as I have been roasting all day. This is effectively my lunch break (late arvo) and I am enjoying the air cond in the office!

    Any difference (or not) that we may have found in cupping the coffee off each of these grinders is academic. It was entirely as I reported. I am not sure a blind tasting would have been relevant either. We were not looking to pick which was which, or which was "better", only to see if we thought there would be any significant difference that could be picked by the average (nay, better than average) client. We dont think so.

    The grinders are in proper working condition meaning the plates are good and not worn out. (I am not sure the number of kilos theyve done is therefore relevant). *If the coffees had been "significantly" different or the coffee from the small grinder had been aweful by comparison, the plates would have been the first thing to check to make sure the test was fair.

    Not dressing up my opinioin as fact. But I did run a fair and reasonable comparison. I have been an accredited Aasca coffee judge, I have been on the panel of coffee judges for the NSW Royal Ag Society, and I rely on my palate in the conduct of my profession and business. And of course I have to look at these things seriously from the point of view of providing equipment for sale to the clients, and looking at what they are prepared or willing to spend, and see what sort of value they will get in terms of what they as individuals, expect to get, Vs what they as individuals, are able to, or want to, discern.

    I dont think the comment I made about about milk coffee is flawed in the context of the simple test we conducted.

    We all learn somthing new every day, and the big surprise for me, was how well the small grinder went, because I really wasnt expecting it....!

    As already mentioned above we will take these little tests further. They are interesting & fun as well as being a help to those that choose to buy equipment from me, who are relying on my expertise when they ask for advice. So I will be doing this again using dfferent beans & blends, and asking more of my staff to participate, to see what comes from it all.


    Regardz,
    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor.

  43. #43
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    It doesnt really suprise me that much. Ive had a fair bit of experience with a Mazzer Mini (as a S/O grinder), a Mazzer Super Jolly (was the main grinder at work) and now a Major (replaced the Super Jolly) and I wouldnt really rate the Super Jolly or Major any better taste wise to the mini. However once you go conical the flavour profile definitely changes - perhaps not better or worse but it is different.

    note:
    - I am a fan of conical burr sets (that being said I have only really had extensive experience with the Mazzer range)
    - The only reason I bought a Super Lusso for home was because I got it for around the price of a second hand mini -(was being sold as an industrial grinder !? ;D)

  44. #44
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I think all the points youve made are fair enough Attilio, especially given the context in which you confined them and I support you.

    If, on the other hand, we want to compare the results of different grinders on the flavours in the cup then a double-blind test is the only way to do it but to make any outcomes statistically relevant, it would require hundreds, if not thousands of cups to be sampled, produced by baristi with industry recognised abilities who can produce repeatable results to a very high percentage of the time.

    Then, we would require a panel of tasters/cuppers with industry recognised palates sampling a minimum of 10 shots per barista per grinder at the very minimum, otherwise the results would be all but meaningless and of little or no value from which to draw conclusions. This then starts to become a gargantuan effort, to say the least and I for one would question the value of such an undertaking in relation to the relevance of coffee produced within a home environment.

    To be honest, I think its about time a reality check was made.... ::)

    Mal.

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Quote Originally Posted by 04292D212C400 link=1257980250/43#43 date=1258537287
    To be honest, I think its about time a reality check was made.... ::)

    Mal.

    Sorry Mal, but with the deepest respect I am enjoying this.

    I have been toying with the idea of updating our grinder and, as such I have enquired with a few who have upgraded from what we have.

    To my surprise a lot have responded with little difference in the cup. This then had me thinking, well, why bother?

    Further pondering and investigation showed clear reasons why an upgrade would be worthwhile, as per AMs comment:

    Conclusion.. A more expensive grinder is not just about taste... It involves many aspects as to the impact on teh product and the throughput and life expectancy of the grinder.

    So moving away from what is being debated here, I have found good reason to continue thinking about it with regard to: more settings, noise level, leftover grinds in chute etc etc etc just to name a few.

    If I had taken the plunge without doing the research, which includes reading this thread and Attlilios findings, I may have upgraded and been really disappointed.

    This here is an added help to my decision and assists in me going in eyes wide open, but by no means has made me change my mind.

    Chris

  46. #46
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Hi Chris,

    I think this is whole different discussion though mate but for what its worth I agree with you and is probably the main reason Im saving up for a Kony-E.... 8-)

    Mal.

  47. #47
    TC
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    Hi qik,

    FWIW, I think this thread has progressed to waaaay over the top.

    My suggestion from your list is the M4D. We have sold hundreds and from what I know, only 2 owners have sold their grinder. This to me says 100s of happy campers.

    If you have a whole heap on $$$$ to blow on a $3k grinder, sure, go for it and we will be delighted to assist. You may not neccesarily taste the difference though- especially under milk.

    Australia does have a handful of supertasters: Sadly the overwhelming majority of us are not.

    Ultimately bigger wont definitely mean better for you. Buy the best grinder your budget will allow you to and disregard all the hype created by the I have a bigger one than yours mob *:P

    You will be happy with the M4D or something similar and wed be happy to assist you. We are in Melbourne as well...

    Chris

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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I think Im just gonna return to enjoying the meetups we have and keep my head down on the forums. This is the internet, and my tone-of-voice and efforts to provide context/alternatives are obviously coming across the wrong way. My palate isnt as great as some people might think.

    Attilio, Im truly sorry if I upset or offended you, or you felt attacked by me. I have a huge amount of respect for you, and it wasnt my intent to tear you to shreds in any way.

    coffeestuffthisforagameofsoldiershorse

  49. #49
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless

    I am happy that my palate isnt so advanced that I am getting upset with the SJ...better for my wallet that way:)...for me in a non-scientific practical level my wife and I just keep sampling away at various coffee houses around the place and in milk drinks I (what we mostly drink) I never feel wanting at home being as objective as possible.

    I think Mals comment of a reality check is the comment of the thread.

    Cheers

  50. #50
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Grinder suggestions - small footprint & doserless


    Quote Originally Posted by 072A2B203A273A374E0 link=1257980250/47#47 date=1258592924
    coffeestuffthisforagameofsoldiershorse
    ;D

    Dencallousthickskinnedogrenis ;)




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