Welcome to the conical side David- you will never look back!Originally Posted by 39283034243C5D0 link=1267601748/0#0 date=1267601748
FYI all, new stocks of the Kony-e and Robur-e have landed in Melbourne
Well one week with Mazzer Kony -e
For the first time since we began to appreciate home espresso have I felt I am making a real coffee. *Not that my previous attempts were bad they were just not excellent.
The Rocky and the Silvia paired well indeed. *But Giotto P was less forgiving and so eventually the need for an upgrade.
Recently I had to replace the control board in the Giotto to the GPP board. *When I did this I felt it was time to upgrade the grinder. *I liked the Mazzer Mini-e and the Macap M4D. But the Kony- e was just there -ouch!
I was very happy with the Rocky but the Kony-e is just so much better - as it should be considering the price!
Like most of us I took the grinder to be necessary but focussed all my attention on the Espresso Machine - well it does steam, pulse, make a lot of noise and bling and bling and bling. *I am very please with the Giotto P but it could only do so much with the grinds. *Now it is quite different.
It was suggested I should post some comment so I have. I donít know what else to say.
Welcome to the conical side David- you will never look back!Originally Posted by 39283034243C5D0 link=1267601748/0#0 date=1267601748
FYI all, new stocks of the Kony-e and Robur-e have landed in Melbourne
Did you get a chance to some side-by-side testing against the Rocky before he was sold? I found this particularly illuminating when I did this with the M4 while I still had it.... 8-)
I little observation but not systematic.
The huge difference using the same beans is that Rockys grind had to be broken up (Stirred with a skewer) to make a pour that did not blonde quickly. *Others may use other methods, or the beans I used may have been prone to clumping. *It also did not have the stepless micro adjustment capability.
I did not notice clumping with the kony at all. *However when experimenting and I stir the Kony grinds the resulting coffee is much milder. *I have been emailing Javabeen for encouragement and I think he has noticed the same effect. *I think as I have been told nearly every doserless grinder will have clumping of some sort.
I have since bought a Bottomless PF. *
I have ground 133 doses and the grinder has settled in.
I realize there are too many variables nevertheless-
Using Five Senses 24/7 one week old, *Kony grind scale: 5.4, *Dose: 6.3 secs yeilding: 17gms *extracting 20mls sweet (probably to mild for most) *25mls stronger. (Extractions not timed) *This is my current fall back position.
Must admit though, given that I have experimented with quite a few different beans, roasts, etc I havent noticed, a single instance of grounds clumping. And that includes a small batch of beans(250g) that were quite oily.....
All basket doses have been evenly distributed, light and fluffy in appearance and do not require any specific input from me. I spose it could be down to the beans youre using that youre noticing some signs of clumping, just hasnt been my experience to date.... :-?
Thank you Mal
I am not sure if these posts are helpful or should be in another part of the CS site.
I feel as if I am just beginning again.
Kony has changed so many aspects of my coffee making and expectations.
The good thing is all my shots have been drinkable and improving steadily
The clumps are not true electrostatic clumps they are rather soft lumps that tamping collapses without any after feel of their being there. *I have read that others have had his experience. *It is my guess that the lumps in using these beans may be finer grinds that sort of come out of the grinder together. *I believe grinders do produce a fine and a course grind (Electronic Microscope). *When I rub grinds between the fingers I feel the powder and and the grind. *It may be the change in taste results in blending the two more evenly. *(With Rocky you could feel the broken clumps in the filter after tamping).
I will try other beans as the grinds I got through the Coffee shop Robur were as you describe. *I attach a photo not very clear I know. *
Isnt David talking about the rocky and not the mazzer?Originally Posted by 0B26222E234F0 link=1267601748/4#4 date=1267708651
Beautiful Pic you have there!!!!!
I think David is referring to the Kony, re: his reply above.... :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
Gday David.... :)
Good photo mate and I can see what youre referring to. As you say though, they appear to be very soft accumulations of grounds rather than clumps per se... Its not what I get though so Ill take a couple of pics tomorrow and post up here for your info.
I doubt that what you are experiencing is going to have any perceivable effect on the quality you get in the cup though. For what its worth mate, we live at approx 500 Mt ASL with relative humidity sitting at or below 50% most of the time. Lately its been exceptionally high though, in southern and western QLD but this doesnt seem to be making any difference, other than the need to adjust the grind a little finer as the RH climbs.... ;)
Big fan of the Kony [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
Took these shots for you this morning David....
First photo is a close-up section of coffee ground on to a small white plate. Shows how the grounds remain quite separate and free moving.
Second photo is of 20g ground into a small glass. Theres no real clumping here either as the slightest touch with the end of a toothpick just creates a clean furrow through the grounds.
When these were taken, the RH was sitting on 98% with a steady drizzling rain falling outside; probably the worst imaginable conditions with which to maintain free flowing grounds. Made a lovely brew by the way ;)....
Out of interest, how do you store your beans? Maybe theyre taking on some moisture somehow or another :-?
Interesting photos and quite a difference too!
I dont think you could ever hope for a fluffier mound Mal. 8-)
Dumiyas grinds also appear to be finer than yours Mal, which might in part account for the clumping. :-/
Im very, very happy with the Kony Den... 8-)Originally Posted by 1B3A3131362C5F0 link=1267601748/10#10 date=1267869104
You might be right about the grind size though. I use ~20g in a standard double shot and use ~10Kg tamping force. So-called "under-dosed" shots are ~17g with a slightly finer grind, not much finer though....
I dont think it really matters in the overall scheme of things to be honest, if whats in the cup tastes great then that is all that counts.... ;)
Mal & Dennis
Those pictures look so different - so nice;
I am only grinding only 16gms *sort of the max for the Giotto baskets. *(The Giotto PF wont take the 21gm Coffee Parts bottomless filter basket)
My grind is fine as I found out.
Now another permutation.
Today I over filled the basket tapped down and reduced the level to leave no mark of the *group filter on top of the grinds. *BUT I picked up my convex Pullman tamper instead of the flat one.
So I checked the result with the bottomless filter and the grinds (16gms) in the Giotto Basket were far too fine.
I eased the Kony grind wheel to 6 *This was too course
So I reset to 5.8 and got a 50mls in 25 secs
So I made a coffee on that setting - very nice indeed.
I love my Kony. *What ever I do is drinkable with varieties of taste variations but not perfect yet. *The Giotto is very happy with what ever I give it.
It is time to get a known CS blend so I plan to get some Talk Coffee Urban Blend shortly and try that. *(Overnight post is incredible for us folk living in a kingdom far, far away)
Its so exciting !!!!! *(OMG I am caffeinated again!)
(Please tell me if these postings are off or inappropriate)
No way David. Its your thread after all..... ;)Originally Posted by 37263E3A2A32530 link=1267601748/12#12 date=1267872994
That all sounds pretty good mate and what youre doing sounds spot-on too. Im not using a triple basket though, its a synesso ridgeless double basket.... The same type that Greg ships with his Pullman Tampers.
Well, Im off to warm up the DJE again right now, for another couple of glorious shots from some home-roasted CS beans. What a life, eh? Wouldnt want to change a thing.... ;D
Hey David, my grinds are clumpier looking than yours. Interesting observation is that Ive noticed less clumps/clump free doses when I have more beans in the hopper, say 60g or more. Even if theyre clumpy, the naked pours still come out looking spectacular and tasting, well, amazing!
I put it all down to the beans though. My home roasts are my biggest variable that has the most impact on cup quality at the moment. They are better than what I can buy around here though so Im a very happy camper.
Im currently enjoying some light home roasted Ethiopia Kuza beans. Day three they were bright and lacking character, approx 16g dose. Yesterday and today at day 4 and 5 and its a different bean, same dose! The acidity has settled nicely and is wonderfully smooth, and there is some sublime smooth cocoa coming through. This is just dosing, nutating tamp and shot pulled. I tried declumping/fluffing the grounds, same dose with a nutate tamp and the taste was mellow and lacking any real character, quite boring actually. It was like the grinds spat the dummy when I touched them *;D
Ill take some photos of the grinds tomorrow and post them up, but lets not get too hung up about them. I just keep an eye on the naked pours and as long as there are no signs of channeling and the cup is good, then the shots can only improve from there.
So I too am very happy with the Kony-e, and now its showing my roasting defects/roasting learning curve at this end of the game.
I agree jb.... 8-)
I think the beans used, blend components/ratio, roast depth and all sorts of things to do exclusively with the beans themselves plays a big part on how the beans end up in the GH Basket and how they produce the goods in the cup at the end, where it really counts.
With regard to the nutating action tamp... You need to make sure you only use very light force while executing this and finish up with a level tamp of normal weight, all in one action. This way, youre not disturbing the final cohesivity of the puck or its seal against the walls of the basket. Takes a little practice to get the action down pat but is really effective at ensuring the coffee bulk density throughout the puck is very uniform, no voids and no higher density clump areas. Maybe this is what you already do and if so, please ignore everything Ive written.
Maybe someone should start up a Large Conical Grinder thread where we can all wax lyrical at length about the joys of using one of these beauties.... ;)
could one of proud owners of Kony E put the picture here at CS with the coarsest grind Kony E would be capable of?
Hello el c,
If you want the Kony-E to split your beans in half, it will do that no problem. Its entirely up to you.
I have had mine for a good 12 months and I cannot imagine another grinder could displace it.
Hope that helps.
supernice.Originally Posted by 530C140209020E070704040C000F610 link=1267601748/17#17 date=1303376841
thx chris for superfast response.
Ditto.... 8-)Originally Posted by 164951474C474B4242414149454A240 link=1267601748/17#17 date=1303376841
I had a play of the kony-e (less than 6 months old) the other day. The grind from the kony had the same look and feel as the grind from a mazzer mini thats less than one month old.
I didn t get a chance to thoroughly compare the two grinders, but even though the pours were quite similar to each other (rate, volume, texture), the taste between the two was different.
I m not too sure how to describe it, but it seemed like the Kony was giving me two streams of flavours... or perhaps this was just a placebo. I will play a bit more and report back.
Anyways, assuming there is a taste difference between the two grinders - can anyone explain why this is the case given that the ground looked and felt exactly the same?
The Kony-E is a conical grinder the the Mini is a flat burr and there definitely is a difference between the 2 in tastes. I have used Mini's and owned a Rocky but now own conicals because I prefer the flavor they get out of the beans.
Probably so, but I tend to go by what my taste buds tell me. It is pretty tempting to own both a large slow flat burr grinder & a conical burr grinder. I suppose there are some coffees that taste better with a flat burr grinder.
The particle shape, number of fines, the heat generated by the grinding process. There is quite the discussion on HB about motor rpm Vs burr speed and the rotational speed at the edge of the burr compared to the center of the burr, etc.
I still go by the taste of the beans that I like and can afford :-)
My Morning Launch Pad
Last edited by BLrdFX; 11th October 2012 at 02:05 PM. Reason: adding url
BlrdFX care to enlighten us with the differences you find between the versalab and kony?
The Kony is much more quiet. With the static screen in place the grounds retention much more and I use medium roast beans which have less oils than those dark sticky ones :-) I dismantled the Kony yesterday to give it a good cleaning and remove the static screen and the ground coffee yield was somewhere in the neighborhood of 15g :-( More beans arriving today so I will be able to report the retention and dosing differences in a day or so. That screen also contributes rather dramatically to clumping, although the clumps go away with a quick stir with a small pointy stick. The vertical size of the Kony is a bit much but I guess that is the price you pay for a conical, electronic timer dosed grinder; the Robur is taller and more $$$$!!!!!!!! I really do like the dosing cone on the Kony so I cannot complain to much about the height of the machine. The stretchy squiggle cord that goes from the body of Kony to the electronic control cone cap is terrible! A simple non squiggle cord would be better, or how about just using a connector that engaged the machine when the top was in place! Wake up Mazzer... If the i-Phone and it's clones can do it...
As far as a taste difference I am leaning toward the VL but with that static screen removed it could make a difference since there is less time for the machine to impart heat to the grounds.
awesome comparison! recently got a kony myself and did the same with the static screen. another thing i do with each shot is brush out the retained grinds from the chute, and run the grinder again to push out the left over grinds in the vanes. seems to work well - i really should check out how much grind retention i get after all that.. but it doesn't seem much =). but that was just the thing - if i didn't brush out the retained grinds i'd imagine i would have to purge a whole shots worth of beans before i can get to some fresh grounds - which is why i'm really curious about the versalab. taste wise i really don't have much to compare the kony against but definitely a whole world of difference compared to an em0480!
If you are running several shots then the Kony is the way to fly and with the screen removed then the clumping disappears!
Well it's me again two and a half years later! Kony is simply getting better. It took quite a few cups in a domestic situation to run in the cones. Once run in the clumps disappeared. Of course I removed the static screen. I only wish that the chute angle was sharper as I, like the above post, have to brush out the chute and run again. Perfect shots happen more often than not. Totally no regrets and absolutely no upgradeitis. I have safely modified the bean holder to hold a measured amount of beans (plumbing cap). All the safety devices are in place and working. I was able to remove the collar from the container.
The electronic dosing is not reliable with removal of the OEM stuff but since I either fill the basket or dose into a basket on a scale it does not matter.
I used a heat gun to soften the tab. The temp is above 100*C. A flame is far too hot. Once softened they were easy to pull away from the ridge. The process takes some time and adjusting the temp so it is less than the melt point. Search for something like Kony e excessive clumping or Kony e modifications. I have improved on what I posted by extending the pipe so it is impossible for curious fingers to get near the cones. This is important if you are a vegetarian!! I have several caps sized to weight of beans I want. At present I am using my 17gm cap to two cups.
I did not realize that the cones were running in until they did. I think it took about 500 cup grinds. Sounds a lot but in a commercial setting only a couple of weeks. It may be that the machined finish on my cones were rougher than usual. I twigged when I saw an article with photos on the finish of Mazzer cones. The rough finish grinds an uneven particle sizes and I think that causes the clumping.
A very interesting read, just waiting on delivery of my Kony E can't wait!
The heat gun trick is a good one and I wish I has thought of it. I ended up using a small hopper/tube that holds 4oz of beans with a weight above the beans. It seems to get the electronic dosing fairly close(if anything it under doses) and since I dose into a portafilter basket with an OE dosing funnel, all sitting on a scale, it works great! The clumping has diminished a bit but I still stir the basket and with the OE dosing funnel there is no mess. The Kony-E is pretty amazing.
I think that since I am not in a commercial environment I might put a switch on the fan. It makes noise when silence it what I really like.
Last edited by BLrdFX; 27th December 2012 at 10:46 PM.
Sorry for digging up an old thread, but blrdfx do you remember what size the tube was? ive given up on removing the hopper until i know i can get a tube that fits!
Maybe you might want to do it this way.
2inch I.D. X 2-1/2inch O.D. and machine off enough to just slide into the throat.
This ends up a very clean setup and you are not constantly fiddling around with that locking collar and the safety interlock(wooden flat stick fixed that!).
thats actually really well done. i might be able to get the tube machined down at work. thanks heaps!
much appreciated! ive only had the kony for a day but so far, very very impressed. Still trying to dial it in properly but espresso from my home roasts has gone from so so to some of the best espresso ive had. First time one of my roasts has tasted like the description andy puts up with the green beans!
The conical, slower moving, burrs tend to bring out more in the beans.
What roaster are you using?
using the behmor, im not the best at it but havent had anything undrinkable yet
Good to hear! The Behmor works as advertised :-)
Hi bringing up an old thread,
Interested to hear and see what others have done with replacing the massive hopper on the kony.
I see the clear cylinders used, and they look quite good
Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction, checked in the major hardware stores, but they only have the PVC ones and not the Perspex or acrylic ones
I've just replaced my Robur hopper with a micro hopper made from 60mm aluminium (but I'm not sure what the Kony throat diameter is?).
I pondered perspex too, but wanted to use a tamp I had as a top, and the perspex wall thicknesses didn't quite suit without machining. I also didn't really need to see the level of the beans - the level of the tamp tells me how much is in there
I'll look into that, did you get them from the States?
Matt: can I ask you where you go to get the aluminium hopper?
that's looks pretty cool too.
I was fortunate enough get an offcut from a very generous snubber who had some laying around
But you'll need to do some measuring - the robur throat is 60.5mm, and 60mm with 3mm wall is a standard aluminium size. Is that the same as the Kony?
Here is where I worked out what I could get… where are you based? This mob is in sydney. Or Scaffolding guys? We were a bit limited in options out here in the country
Aluminium Warehouse Ľ Tube Round
very generous snobber indeed.
I'm in Melbourne
The inside diameter of the Kony collar is just on 60mm, so I say pretty similar to the robur, or perhaps just slightly smaller
I managed to remove the hopper without breaking the tabs,
so looking to do something similar to you
Thanks for that tip
Hi joyo keep us posted if you find anything available in Melbourne. I have a mini but I think the ID may be the same.
Still trying to find anything that works well.
I've just been using it with the collar and a tamper on top to stop beans bouncing out. Not the prettiest.