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Thread: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

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    Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    While very happy with the grind quality on my DRMs they are a little slow on speed when under the pump and if my little commercial venture is to continue then I am in the market for a new larger Grinder over the next 6 months. Also bearing in mind that the DRMs have already done commercial duty for several years before I got them and refurbed them so they will not go on forever in a commercial setting.

    Cost is to some degree unimportant but the large price differential between the Robur and the Compak makes the Compak fairly attractive to buy.

    Doserless electronic versions seems to be the way to go, but I am open to stick with dosered based on commercial opinions or reliability considerations, remembering that I am 4 hours out of Melbourne.

    Has anyone seen the new K 10 electronic in the flesh and had a drive of it?

    Also thoughts from anyone that has used more than one of the possible grinder choices above or that has an alternative to add ::)

    Criteria

    1 Grind quality
    2 Consistency of dose and speed (doser/doserless)
    3 Reliability
    4 Cost

    If anyone has any of the above to sell to me for $100 I will happily settle for that too ;)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    This is a decision Im weighing up at the moment also. Having used both the Robur and K10 (non WBC) recently, hasnt helped the decision. They both have their positives and negatives.

    In regards to your criteria, I would say both grinders meet all except for 4. The Robur is a fair bit dearer than the K10.

    The other thing would be weight. The Robur is built like a tank and wouldnt be too easy to move around. Whereas the K10 I imagine would be lighter and easier to transport.

    The other problem with the Robur; for me anyway is that it shows up how short I am. It kind of leans over and pats me on the head condescendingly. :)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Given the cost of grinder you are looking at find some in the flesh and see if you can have a play, that is the only way you will find out if these things will suit what you want to do. Me I like big flat burr grinders a lot cheaper and for the drinks you are doing (milky) your customers wont be able to tell the difference in taste IMHO.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 6067636C646E7B6B6C65020 link=1268192465/0#0 date=1268192465
    large price differential between the Robur and the Compak
    ...and they are VERY different grinders.
    ::)

    I agree with the above, have a play with them and then spend your budget... and even then if you settle on one brand then have a good think about the doser/no doser question if speed is your goal.

    A 4 second wait from a $3K+ doserless is a long time to wait if there is a far queue.

    8-)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D6A6E616963766661680F0 link=1268192465/0#0 date=1268192465
    Also thoughts from anyone that has used more than one of the possible grinder choices above or that has an alternative to add *
    Hi bf,

    I have had multiple K10WBC and now 2 x Robur-e,

    The K10 is brilliant value and has one of the best dosers in the business. There are a few K10 electronic prototypes in the US, but we wont see them here for about 6 months- as I am informed by the importer. For throughput, Id place the K10 between a Kony-e and a Robur (given that the doserless versions are quicker).

    If you can muster the funds for a Robur-e, its a no-brainer Id think. Factor about 4.5 sec for a double and rock solid consistency. For lower volumes, a Kony-e will do you just as well. Its terrific and I use one at home, as do a few other CSers...

    Hope that helps ;)

    Chris




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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Thanks for the replies so far. Definately not for home use so that part of the doserless advantage is not a consideration, and my DRMs only leave behind 2-2.5g total including the doser for home use so they do pretty well for that job.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F303A275E0 link=1268192465/3#3 date=1268227762
    4 second wait from a $3K+ doserless is a long time to wait
    Yep agreed, dosered is winning in my mind at this stage too.

    The other thing to my way of thinking is that unlike a lot of shop situations the grinder is between you and the customer on a cart so operational noise is a factor to some degree.

    I guess I am looking for good reasons to spend the extra $1kish and get a Robur. Over the life of a grinder I know the initial $$ spent is not much considering what it will do over its life.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F303A275E0 link=1268192465/3#3 date=1268227762
    spend your budget
    What budget I am single and a sole trader *8-)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Hmmm.....

    Given that Speed and a Doser are primary considerations, why not look at a Mazzer Major Automatic. These grinders are way fast and if you dont mind the shortcomings of a Mazzer Doser design, the rest of the machine is built to the same standard and specs as a Kony... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 787F7B747C766373747D1A0 link=1268192465/5#5 date=1268266348
    Thanks for the replies so far. Definately not for home use so that part of the doserless advantage is not a consideration, and my DRMs only leave behind 2-2.5g total including the doser for home use so they do pretty well for that job.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F303A275E0 link=1268192465/3#3 date=1268227762
    4 second wait from a $3K+ doserless is a long time to wait
    Yep agreed, dosered is winning in my mind at this stage too.

    The other thing to my way of thinking is that unlike a lot of shop situations the grinder is between you and the customer on a cart so operational noise is a factor to some degree.

    I guess I am looking for good reasons to spend the extra $1kish and get a Robur. Over the life of a grinder I know the initial $$ spent is not much considering what it will do over its life.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F303A275E0 link=1268192465/3#3 date=1268227762
    spend your budget
    What budget I am single and a sole trader *8-)
    For my money definately a Robur, but youll increase waste for sure. The doserless roburs are unable to deliver what i consider consistent doses. Weve got 3 roburs on the bench at work (1xblend and 2xS.O) all with dosers. Everything is grind on demand and were using dosing tools which weve stacked against the doserless robur and the dosing tools win on consistency. Just depends on how accurate you wanna be. The other option is BNZs or Anfim.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    James,

    How many KG had the Robur E done when you put it up against your dosing tools? From what I understand, the burrs need a bit of wearing in before the dosing is accurate?

    -ACog

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 34363A32323C3B26550 link=1268192465/8#8 date=1268308355
    James,

    How many KG had the Robur E done when you put it up against your dosing tools? From what I understand, the burrs need a bit of wearing in before the dosing is accurate?

    -ACog
    doesnt matter how many kilos go through. The grinder is still inconsistent in dose. You cant rely on an electronic timed grinder to get you within +/- 0.3 grams of your target dose. Why 0.3 grams? Anecdotally, 0.3 grams is enough to change pour characteristics. Ive done a fair bit of testing of timed grinders in my time for barista comps.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Mmmm Must come to Melbourne and play with Shiny Grinders :)

    Any thoughts on the Robur Dosered version then against the Compak? Apart from weighing and costing more and a bit more speed is there an improvement in grind, flavour profile or is it just different? Any other percieved benifits that make the extra $$ worth it?

    Bearing in mind that I have read the Titan grinder review and taking it on face value, and as Chris said above
    Quote Originally Posted by 7C494443776B474E4E4D4D280 link=1268192465/4#4 date=1268251493
    The K10 is brilliant value and has one of the best dosers in the business.
    looking at medium volumes in a dosered then it is the best choice by a bit.

    Maybe I just need to rob a bank and get one of each ::)

    BTW thanks all fairly firmly in the dosered camp I reckon (at least for now) :)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C7E7863646E780B0 link=1268192465/9#9 date=1268310674
    doesnt matter how many kilos go through. The grinder is still inconsistent in dose. You cant rely on an electronic timed grinder to get you within +/- 0.3 grams of your target dose. Why 0.3 grams? Anecdotally, 0.3 grams is enough to change pour characteristics. Ive done a fair bit of testing of timed grinders in my time for barista comps.
    This has not been my experience with the Kony-E so far... In fact, it lands a dose each and every time that is well within the +/- 0.3g hysteresis you quoted David.

    One thing I have noticed though, if you dont keep the interior of the dosing funnel absolutely clean, after a while enough oil collects near the exit point to hang on to some ground coffee (up to a couple of grams at times). Naturally, this can cause some inconsistency from one dose to another as this suspended coffee can then fall into the basket in addition to what has just been ground.

    I just give the funnel a good clean out at the end of every day and the problem doesnt return. Mind you, Im not doing anything like the volumes of coffee that you guys are so this might become a bit of a chore. If some coffee is hung up inside, a couple of soft taps from the handle of the tamper quickly dislodges it all so maybe that would be a better operational mode demploi in a Cafe....

    Mal.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Just did a quick head count round town 28 espresso machines in use plus 2 mobile trailers in a town of 3000 ::) number of places I would go to "buy" a coffee without food at 3 or maybe 4 :-[ .

    Going to complete a grinder and machine survey for fun but I think the biggest grinder is a big black plastic Boema at the worst coffee place in town :P A few Mazzer Jollys and maybe a Major plus other assorted old gear. One of the pubs has a broken doser so they fill the doser up and spoon it out of the top and yes the doser and hopper are kept full from day to day :P

    Interesting Mal, if I was buying for home then doserless electronic I reckon would be a no brainer, I currently grind by hand more often than not instead of loading up hoppers and cleaning dosers for one or maybe 2 doubles in the mornings so doserless makes a lot of sense.

    Bottom line is whatever I choose is it will be the biggest badest grinders in town anyway 8-) Roasters week next week looks like I am coming to town :)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 527F7B777A160 link=1268192465/11#11 date=1268378398
    This has not been my experience with the Kony-E so far... In fact, it lands a dose each and every time that is well within the +/- 0.3g hysteresis you quoted David.
    The Kony-E may be more accurate due to the slower speed of grinding. For a Robur E, the grind time is often < 4 seconds. The variation in dose is often massive. I dont know what the grind time on a Kony these days is, but the ones Ive used about 3 or 4 years ago used to think they were Mazzer Minis! My statement would only be true of grinders that deliver the required dose in a fairly quick time. My statement of dose variation only applies to these grinders (eg Robur, BNZ Conical, K10 Conic et al)

    Mind you though, how fast the grinder spits out the required dose is not the only factor that affects the accuracy of dose delivered. Other factors such as blend, grind fineness and humidity come in to play IMO.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 1E3C3A21262C3A490 link=1268192465/13#13 date=1268457548
    The Kony-E may be more accurate due to the slower speed of grinding. For a Robur E, the grind time is often < 4 seconds. The variation in dose is often massive. I dont know what the grind time on a Kony these days is, but the ones Ive used about 3 or 4 years ago used to think they were Mazzer Minis! My statement would only be true of grinders that deliver the required dose in a fairly quick time. My statement of dose variation only applies to these grinders (eg Robur, BNZ Conical, K10 Conic et al)

    Mind you though, how fast the grinder spits out the required dose is not the only factor that affects the accuracy of dose delivered. Other factors such as blend, grind fineness and humidity come in to play IMO.
    Hi Dave,

    I am grinding at about 6.5-7.5 sec per double depending on what I use with my Kony-e and I reckon I dose on the generous side... I assume the standard Kony runs a less aggressive burr cut. and is still slow.

    A mini manual/mini-e double is more like 20 sec...

    Chris

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Hi Chris,

    Sounds like Mazzer have made an improvement to the Konys. Previous Konys Ive used, used to grind a double dose in about 30 seconds (no joke!). *:-/ :-/ :-/ Thats good information to have - which means the Kony may be a potential barista competition grinder - with more repeatable and reliable doses with the advantage of still being conical (compared to Robur-Es) .

    Dave. *:)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 0D2F2932353F295A0 link=1268192465/15#15 date=1268458775
    Sounds like Mazzer have made an improvement to the Konys.
    The only change I have seen/heard of to the Konys was the addition of a feed impeller on top of the center burr which assists in pushing beans into the grinding area. iirc, it can be added to older Konys.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 4A79767C61475F36180 link=1268192465/16#16 date=1268463476
    Quote Originally Posted by 0D2F2932353F295A0 link=1268192465/15#15 date=1268458775
    Sounds like Mazzer have made an improvement to the Konys. *
    The only change I have seen/heard of to the Konys was the addition of a feed impeller on top of the center burr which assists in pushing beans into the grinding area. iirc, it can be added to older Konys.

    Who knows Randy? *:-/. I have never used one of the old ones..

    Dave- youre welcome to come and have a play if you ever want to check out my Kony-e. Does one have to use a Robur-E or similar big gun in comp to have cred? :-?

    Chris

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    For what it is worth:

    On my current grind setting I am grinding just on 18gms in 6.25 sec on a Kony-e *( a double just missing the Giotto filter screen). *

    My scales dont permit fractions so today I just took a whisker out of the basket until it dropped to 17gms then a tiny bit back until it touched 18gms. *

    Dumiya


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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    I would not choose a Robur E if i knew i could get the job done with a dosered Robur.
    Reasons -
    Regular inconsistansy 1-4g
    30g purge needed (Robur dosered 25g)
    If you need to grind fine - coffee comes out in cubes.
    I updose on the Robur E collapse twice and then strike off. So i have alot more waste of coffee and time, but it allows me to be more acurate. In saying that when it gets crazy the robur e can seem like a life saver (still quicker than dosered and more ergonomic).
    I have a kony dosered and i feel more confidant about how the espresso is going to pour than i do with the Robur E. I love the kony.
    Anyway, i dont think im going to open my own cafe until someone designs a grinder that ticks all the boxes - soooo much room for improvement. Oh love the BNZ too, dont overlook these work horses.


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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    There are plenty of great quality grinder manufacturers out there, not just Mazzer, Macap, Compak, BNZ, etc for commercial situations....

    In the end though, as well as doing the job (grinder fits your specification) you also need to have faultless service, parts and technical support. I dont know what level of support is available for other brands such as La San Marco, Elektra and others but they sure do make some very speccy grinders.... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A465549465454270 link=1268192465/19#19 date=1268477646
    In saying that when it gets crazy the robur e can seem like a life saver (still quicker than dosered and more ergonomic).
    That fits with the research I undertook before deciding on the Kony. The Robur-E really does seem to be much more suited for the highly charged, high turnover establishment and that is where Mazzer target it as well. The Major-E is just as fast in output but significantly more economical to buy but has the same electronics and delivery system so may well suffer some of the other traits of the Robur too, except withheld volume....

    Mal.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 57626F685C406C65656666030 link=1268192465/17#17 date=1268464678
    Dave- youre welcome to come and have a play if you ever want to check out my Kony-e. Does one have to use a Robur-E or similar big gun in comp to have cred?Huh
    No, its more about speed of grinding and dosing. You dont want to blow 1 minute dosing and grinding one handle of coffee. Multiply that by 6 handles and that is 6 minutes of 15 minutes gone.

    If you can do it in half the time, thats only 3 minutes of 15 minutes comp time.

    With a dosered grinder like a K10 or Robur, Id be able to grind, dose and tamp within 20 seconds. With a doserless, I can do the same in 10 seconds. 10 seconds by 6 handles is only 1 minute of the total allowed 15 minutes. It allows a competitor to do a lot more than just make coffee, eg talk, prepare a more complex sig drink etc.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D70747875190 link=1268192465/11#11 date=1268378398
    One thing I have noticed though, if you dont keep the interior of the dosing funnel absolutely clean, after a while enough oil collects near the exit point to hang on to some ground coffee (up to a couple of grams at times). Naturally, this can cause some inconsistency from one dose to another as this suspended coffee can then fall into the basket in addition to what has just been ground.

    I just give the funnel a good clean out at the end of every day and the problem doesnt return.
    Mal

    I remember that sometime back you suggested the use of a Teflon type spray (used on spectacles as I recall) to reduce static. *Have you tried, or would you think it worth trying, use of this spray inside the dosing funnel to increase "slipperyness" (since it is Teflon) and reduce the ground coffee holding at the exit point.

    Regards

    S

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 0D3D312C2E3731305E0 link=1268192465/23#23 date=1275028815
    I remember that sometime back you suggested the use of a Teflon type spray (used on spectacles as I recall) to reduce static. *Have you tried, or would you think it worth trying, use of this spray inside the dosing funnel to increase "slipperyness" (since it is Teflon) and reduce the ground coffee holding at the exit point.
    Gday S.... :)

    Yes mate, this would probably work and may be a worthwhile thing to do in a high turnover situation where time spent clearing the funnel will lead to accumulated delays in delivery time. Its not really a big deal here at home though, its really easy to clean out and even if I have a half-a-dozen friends or relos waiting for a brew, a quick tap on the side of the funnel clears anything hanging up inside.

    The situation does get worse the more coffee you grind though so if youre in a situation like that, a Teflon Spray or Wipe-On may be very effective..... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    And the answer was I got the K10, price played a part in it but reported differential in dose of the Robur E and quirks of the dosered ones swung it too. Since I started this thread there is now the E version of the K10 to consider too.

    Fired it up in anger for the first time today and it is seriously fast and extremely quiet compared to my current DRM/Cimbalis .

    Thanks for the thoughts above all :)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    You may find the info in this H-B thread useful:
    http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/compak-k10-chute-mods-t14728.html?hilit=k10%20chute%20mod

    *Also if you remove the roll pin stop that is installed under the top cover you can easily remove the upper burr carrier w/cover.

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Thanks for the link, it certainly retains more grinds than my DRMs. Not really a problem for normal commercial use but at home it will waste a bit of coffee.

    Out with the dremel :)

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Ok so now Ive read most of the post, Ill put my 2 cents in for what its worth. My cafe is doing approx 40-45 kilos a week usining the K10 compak and everyone of us hates this grinder. I manual dose in the quiet times but due to high demand we go to auto dose when needed. It is so incosistant. Ive had my Robar E 1 week and love it!!!!! I should of had one of these 12 months ago. Consistant beyond anything Ive ever used. Wastage minimal!!! so much so that Ill have mine paid off in under 4 months. I estimate we have cut roughly 3-5 kilo a week so far. Product is great. Staff are happy and most of all I a little less stressed. Love you Mazzer!!!

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    Re: Robur E, Compak K10 WBC or E, Mahlkonig K 30 ES or ..... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by 595A54515051515A52350 link=1268192465/28#28 date=1330979886
    Ok so now Ive read most of the post, Ill put my 2 cents in for what its worth. My cafe is doing approx 40-45 kilos a week usining the K10 compak and everyone of us hates this grinder. I manual dose in the quiet times but due to high demand we go to auto dose when needed. It is so incosistant. Ive had my Robar E 1 week and love it!!!!! I should of had one of these 12 months ago. Consistant beyond anything Ive ever used. Wastage minimal!!! so much so that Ill have mine paid off in under 4 months. I estimate we have cut roughly 3-5 kilo a week so far. Product is great. Staff are happy and most of all I a little less stressed. Love you Mazzer!!!
    Good thing ld,

    Nothing inherently wrong with the K10 except that you were pushing it well beyond optimum at 45kg/week. Sorta like you needed a V12 diesel 4WD to tow the 45 footer, but purchased a taxi pack 6 instead. ;D

    Im glad to hear the Robur-E is doing the job it was designed to do and the bonus is that if you get busier, you can always go 3-phase ;)

    Chris



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