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Thread: Re: The significance of clumping?

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I read that coffee grounds are hot... And it clumps... :-?

    Any comments?

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4D564D4C220 link=1284342509/26#26 date=1298080472
    I read that coffee grounds are hot... And it clumps... *:-?

    Any comments?
    Me thinks sometimes some get pent up on process rather than outcome... :-?

    How many shots back to back and can one taste the clumping after after collapsing, distributing and tamping the dose?

    ALL doserless grinders can clump at times- even my Robur-E and Kony-E and all grinders will have some heating effect on the grind of a dose. At circa 300rpm, heating is minimised ::)

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    The heating of grounds I had read and talked to a user about were in a fairly busy cafe situation and were in comparison to a Robur so unlikely to ever be a problem for a home user or even in most cafes for that matter.

    Dont like clumping get a dosered grinder ;)

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    As to clumping... there are quite a few doserless that seem to avoid it.
    Im hanging out for the LM Schomer grinder... maybe itll be the respectable solution to what versalabs product is.

    A recent video by seattlecoffeegear shows that if you want to spend more on a doserless to have to wdt... youd better do it in the portafilter because of how much more fluffy the grinds get the dose volume is deceptive.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7C736B7A6B6E6B0A0 link=1284342509/29#29 date=1298083348
    As to clumping... there are quite a few doserless that seem to avoid it.
    Im hanging out for the LM Schomer grinder... maybe itll be the respectable solution to what versalabs product is.
    I am yet to see one.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E6B66615549656C6C6F6F0A0 link=1284342509/27#27 date=1298082566
    Me thinks sometimes some get pent up on process rather than outcome... *

    How many shots back to back and can one taste the clumping after after collapsing, distributing and tamping the dose?
    Which brings us back to my original question. Are we pent up on process or can you actually taste the difference in an identical, correctly distributed shot? *:-?

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    So, how are you going to get an identical correctly distributed shot with clumped vs nonclumped grinds?
    ::)

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 636C7465747174150 link=1284342509/31#31 date=1298087096
    So, how are you going to get an identical correctly distributed shot with clumped vs nonclumped grinds?
    ::)
    By doing what all good baristi do: Altering technique to produce an identical dose and the same pour and then blind tasting to see whether there is a difference in the cup- or do you get sucked in by placebo effect and the opinions of self-appointed internet experts.... ::)

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    So you think a good barista can get an identical dose without weighing?
    Are you a good barista?
    Ive heard and read comments from BC judges that even those who compete at high levels dont get it right a substantial portion of the time.
    Who you trying to call a self appointed internet expert? Lets drop the subtext, shall we? Im trying to have a reasonable discussion.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Yeegads....After circa 1.5 million shots, I had better go and buy myself some scales because clearly I have learned nothing.

    They call it free dosing and its a learned skill which comes with experience- as does understanding whats in the cup before you taste it.

    As previously stated, its about outcome.


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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Thats cool, if you have no data to share then its just opinion about identical.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 58574F5E4F4A4F2E0 link=1296809925/3#3 date=1298083348
    As to clumping... there are quite a few doserless that seem to avoid it.
    Quote Originally Posted by 58574F5E4F4A4F2E0 link=1296809925/9#9 date=1298089421
    if you have no data to share then its just opinion
    Care to share, or just an opinion based on something youve heard or read?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A4F4245716D4148484B4B2E0 link=1296809925/8#8 date=1298088213
    After circa 1.5 million shots
    Im [s]nearly[/s] halfway there! *;D

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Its an observation based upon watching video of doserless grinders. Hence the word seem.
    Nice try, though.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E213928393C39580 link=1296809925/11#11 date=1298091494
    Its an observation based upon watching video of doserless grinders. Hence the word seem.
    Nice try, though.
    Ah ok. For a moment there it seemed like you knew what you were talking about. I made the mistake of reading your whole sentence, in context, rather than looking for the escape clause in the word, seem.


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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    If you want to be a jerk, no worries.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4E415948595C59380 link=1296809925/7#7 date=1298087680
    So you think a good barista can get an identical dose without weighing?
    Process I use is weigh the first few in and observe the resulting pour after you get going with that bean you can repeat more accurately by eye than relying on electronic dosers from what I have done, seen and talked to people about. Not sure about the K10 fresh but the Robur is known to vary by over 1.5g. The timer I have on my K10 manual is used as a method to minimise wastage (set a touch to much) then dose, settle, manually correct dose, final level and tamp. I still check against scales once in a while but its what you taste that matters.

    Soft clumping is generally what these larger grinders give and is very different to the clumping on the $3-500 doserless grinders give. Grind distribution/clump removal with the better grinders has been less of a problem to no problem compared to when I was using a cheaper doserless grinder for Espresso. In short when in commercial mode clumps get tamped, no time to muck around with a toothpick etc :)

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    "The significance of clumping?"

    Define the level and type of clumping ?

    If in a milk based drink many would never know....

    If an an espresso, depending on the beans etc and consistency of teh Barista... MOST drinkers would not be able to tell. An experienced person with a tuned body ;D and focusing on the utmost minor changes may pick a difference.

    Can some one say that was due to clumping OR some other factor... Doubt that many are that good.

    For me it is about whats in the cup and I get that via being consistent and using my eyes etc. If I was to stress too much and try to remove all and every variance I would need a mass of electronic tools and pids etc and NO one would get a coffee :o

    Coffee is about the enjoyment and learning, to stress over perfection in a non perfect world will to lead to STRESS: This does not equal good coffee ;)

    PS. Off to Bunnings to relax 8-)

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 27283021303530510 link=1296809925/13#13 date=1298094656
    If you want to be a jerk, no worries.
    So enlighten us then.. :-?

    I read back through this thread and all I can see in so far is sufficient hot air to raise a balloon. Not a single post with any information whatever.

    Was that a leprechaun or is it just another mythical cosmetically challenged beast in the vicinity of a bridge?

  18. #18
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F787C737B716474737A1D0 link=1296809925/14#14 date=1298095004
    In short when in commercial mode clumps get tamped, no time to muck around with a toothpick etc *
    I guess you dont weigh on finely calibrated scales before engaging the group handle then? *;D

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C737A786F507C737C7A78707873691D0 link=1296809925/15#15 date=1298095690
    Coffee is about the enjoyment and learning, to stress over perfection in a non perfect world will to lead to STRESS: This does not equal good coffee Wink

    PS. Off to Bunnings to relax Cool
    Just dont drink the coffee there AM !!! ::)

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B647C6D7C797C1D0 link=1296809925/13#13 date=1298094656
    If you want to be a jerk, no worries.
    Aaaw. *Now youre going to make me cry.

    I just would like to hear a few brand and model names from you of grinders that dont seem to clump. *If youre not able to do that, its ok, just man up and say you made a mistake.


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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A5B5050574D3E0 link=1296809925/17#17 date=1298097533
    I guess you dont weigh on finely calibrated scales before engaging the group handle then?
    Err NO :)

    At home out of interest I use a Kyocera hand grinder day to day for the Pavoni, never weigh doses, never distribute with toothpicks and just dose by eye. This works fine too. It does help having 51mm baskets as they are far more tolerent of disribution problems than 58mm ones due to their depth.

    The clumping I used to get from my old Ibiteral Challenge or my current Ascaso ARE a problem for espresso IMO.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Ive owned a few grinders over the years, three of which were doserless and in only a single case did I observe what could be considered to be genuine clumping; that is, simple taps on the bench after dosing wouldnt collapse them. The other grinders didnt/dont really produce clumps as there is no evidence of cohesion; simple taps on the bench collapses them....

    Im not even dancing in the shadow of the likes of Chris or Den when it comes to experience pulling espresso but even with my limited experience, I have never been able to discern any difference from identical doses using the same grinder (the clumpy one ::)) from one shot to the next, whether I took the time to break up the clumps or just used a simple nutating action with the Tamper before completing the tamp and locking in the Group.

    My current grinder, in my opinion, does not clump at all. No matter what the ambient conditions or the type and age of the coffee being used. I think its just another point of acadæmia that may be of interest to a few but serves no real practical purpose for the many.... ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    I have been using a K3T and have noticed that it is usually stale coffee that clumps noticeably. *Since switching to a local roaster who roast dates his beans life has been lovely.

    If you want to see a grinder that doesnt spit out golf balls check out the Versalab:

    http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/versalab-m3-grinder-t408.html

    This is my dream domestic grinder.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 614F56467C6B4C565046230 link=1296809925/20#20 date=1298109347
    If you want to see a grinder that doesnt spit out golf balls check out the Versalab:
    Never really been impressed by the Versalab, it seems too much of an "Audiophile" machine to me - If you get my drift.... ::) :P

    Mal.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    I actually prefer my grinder clumping. Let me explain... I use a Nuova Simonelli MDX in a commercial setting and its a good solid workhorse that simply gets the job done and the micrometric adjustment is second to none that Ive used yet. Anyway, each morning I brush the grounds throat out and start grinding. While doing so I hold a few fingers over the throat which causes the grounds to back up a bit and form a plug. Once this is achieved as I grind the coffee falls out into the doser in neat little clumps with not a bit of static. This gives me very predictable control over the grind, especially as temperature/humidity change. If I didnt let this plug form in the throat and the grounds were to simply spray out into the doser static becomes quite a problem which continues to spray out into the portafilter while dosing. This makes getting a proper dose nearly impossible, leads to waste and makes keeping the grind dialed in as the day progresses nearly impossible. Kind of like comparing keeping beans in the hopper at all times vs. single weight grinding/dosing per extraction.

    For decaf I use a NS Grinta doserless and it clumps alot, but I simply use a plastic fork to stir/fluff the grounds as they fill the basket and all is good.

    If your coffee isnt clumping at least a bit its usually because its not fresh OR the air is too dry OR the grind setting is a bit too coarse. That is based on my experiences.

    I should add that Im mobile in operation and see huge fluctuations in temperature/humidity daily.


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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A544D5D6770574D4B5D380 link=1296809925/20#20 date=1298109347
    If you want to see a grinder that doesnt spit out golf balls check out the Versalab
    None of the real grinders will spit golfballs but every one I have seen and used can produce soft clumping.

    Im with Mal on the versalab. It has little if any relevance to the real world of coffee.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C425B4B7166415B5D4B2E0 link=1296809925/20#20 date=1298109347
    If you want to see a grinder that doesnt spit out golf balls check out the Versalab:
    Also read about the problems with the Versalab, much as some of them have been fixed there are still issues with them. If you think you are in that market then check out the new Uber Grinder too :)

  26. #26
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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Ive always thought that clumping effects distribution, in that the tamp will never completely resolve a bad distribution caused by clumping.

    The rocky I used to own was notorious for clumping and I always had a paperclip handy for WDT swirling prior to tamping.

    After upgrading to the Anfim Lusso that I restored, clumping is pretty much non existant, and it provides a much defined taste in the cup.

    I would guess that larger burr size, lower bean temp during grinding, and slower rpm probably all contribute to less clumping too.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 53666B6C58446861616262070 link=1296809925/8#8 date=1298088213
    After circa 1.5 million shots
    Yeegads! That would be 205 shots per day, 7 days a week for 20 years straight! Methinks vyapada would be pushing the proverbial smelly stuff uphill to question that level of experience.

    Seriously though, I do have to agree with Chris on this one... it really is all about outcome and when one tends to get overly caught up in process they tend to lose the art... and I have found that I prefer cups prepared by artists rather than those from technicians

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Did I started this post? The significance of clumping? WTF?

    I had a laugh What happens?

  29. #29
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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A617A7B150 link=1296809925/27#27 date=1298410830
    Did I started this post? The significance of clumping? WTF?

    I had a laugh What happens?
    Err nope Oton,

    The off topic post and responses to it were split off into their own thread.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    The original questions asked by Oton were perfectly valid and most certainly not OT or denigrating of the product, it became a little later on more generic on clumping.

    As it is a discussion thread on the Compak Fresh then it needed to have some of this Q & A left there as I have since reposted, to clear up what he had read elsewhere.

    Off to use my non clumping dosered grinders :)

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3B3C38373F352030373E590 link=1296809925/29#29 date=1298420341
    Off to use my non clumping dosered grinders* :)
    Just finished using my non-clumping Kony too, for a superb result in the cup.... 8-) ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: The significance of clumping?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5057535C545E4B5B5C55320 link=1296809925/29#29 date=1298420341
    Off to use my non clumping dosered grinders*
    To be fair to non-dosing grinders, my Super Jolly doesnt clump into the doser, so whether it is dosered or not doesnt seem to have an effect on what ends up in the basket.

    My EM0480 used to clump really badly.



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