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Thread: Iberital review

  1. #1
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Iberital review

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    The Italian Trespade hand conical burr grinder has been in the family long enough to probably qualify as an exhibit in a coffee museum somewhere. The burrs look blunt, but can still grind fine enough to stump my new Silvia.

    But after much research, itís been put back in the cupboard and a new Iberital conical burr grinder sits proudly next to the Silvia on the kitchen bench.

    Itís a doserless model. The fineness is controlled via a knob. The duration of grind is controlled, via a timer, adjusted by a smaller knob on the side. So far so good. So, hit the portafilter against a switch under the chute, and away it goes

    Positives: Noise is acceptable, and there is no complaint about the quality of its output. It appears sturdy, heavy, made of steel. Obviously built to give long service. The hopper is large, but that is meaningless as you wouldnít want to fill it with beans and leave them there for days or weeks, exposed to air. The adjustment is infinite, not stepped. Very simple to use, as I said, just bump the portafilter against the switch to begin the timed grind.

    Gripes: There is no reference point for the adjustment of grind. That can be a problem if changing from one type of bean to another, and then possibly back again to the original. There is no numbered setting or any marks to tell where the knob has been turned to or from. To give me some guide, I glued a little paper arrow on the face of the knob. Same for the timer knob. Possibly like many such grinders, some grounds (about a teaspoonful) tend to get stuck in the chute. That means the basket is underfilled, and they fall, stale into the basket next time round. To avoid this I bent a stainless steel paper clip into a probe to eek out the remaining grinds. If the hopper is removed while it contains beans, they spill out the bottom because thereís no shut-off valve. I suppose that desirable feature comes in more expensive models.

  2. #2
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    The timed grind sounds like a good feature that I havnt seen mentioned in these "Rocky-rocks" bias pages before although I do remember reading about a Mazzer that was timed...somewhere.

    I wonder why more grinders dont offer a timer?

  3. #3
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    Yes, the timer is handy. Just turn knob clockwise for longer grind, anti-clockwise for shorter. With enough initial tweaking, it can take the guesswork out of how much grinds to put into the basket. And that can mean no waste if you tend to over-grind and then level off.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    You didnt mention price or supplier?

    Give them a plug if your happy with the product and service!


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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    Yes, a plug would be in order. Grinder and Rancilio Silvia were bought at Coffeecompany at 260 Carlisle Street, Balaclava *Melbourne. *They have many, many brands or grinders and *machines on display and as working displays too, so they can show you how they work. They also roast and sell beans. The service there was amazingly excellent. The guys showed me how to use the Iberital and Silvia (using their own beans, too!) And made me a fantastic complimentary latte while I waited for Silvia to warm up. I even went back for a follow-up lesson several days later and they were glad to assist. *Very highly recommended.

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    Re: Iberital review

    Hi All,

    Its my first post so Ill attempt to make it worthwhile. *First up, great site! I had no idea that there were other people as obsessed with coffee in Melbourne as I am! *Sweet.

    Im looking at buying a Silvia + grinder in the next month or so and having researched the machine-side of things and think Iíd be making the right choice going with the Silvia (see part B of my question for more on this). *

    However, grinders are a different story. *Ill be making <15 cups of coffee per week (every other morning plus weekends), and am therefore reluctant to spend the money on a Rancilio Rocky grinder, BUT on the other hand, I refuse to by a crap grinder. *I need quality!

    Question Part A:
    Thus I believe Im presented with the following choices:
    * Gaggia MDF - Approx $350. A good grinder which my dad used to own (along with his HX machine) and hence Ive used it for a considerable period of time in the past (a couple years), but since getting married and leaving home, had to kiss it goodbye. *:-[ * Surely I need not mention the agony of also leaving behind an excellent Gaggia HX machine. *:(

    * Iberital Challenge - Approx $270. Ive never used a conical burr grinder before and Iím concerned this wont match up to the MDF (flat burr) standard the the MDF beast would pump out, but its in my price range! *I am also aware that Miss Silvia gets her panties in a knot if the grind isnt right *:-? * So whatever grinder I get, it has to be good.

    I would like to save myself $80 and get the Challenge, but can it match the MDF standard? I love the idea of infinite adjustment levels on it, as my one gripe with the MDF was that it needed more fine adjustments in the 5-9 slot brackets. *

    So ive said all that to ask this: Compared to the MDF, will an Iberital Challenge produce excellent quality grind? And is it a sturdy, reliable beast? *I hate poor quality things. *Please let me know if there are other grinders that you recommend in this price range (or not)! *:D

    Question Part B:
    Ill throw this out for what its worth - can a Silvia produce coffee as nice as my dads HX? I miss that machine... and Iím tired of crying myself to sleep at night. *So I have to buy a machine that can produce that kind of shot, but at half the price. *I have a limit of $750 for the espresso component of my venture - the Silvia seems to fit nicely. * I also want a manual machine - Silvia fits this requirement too. *

    Frankly, I cant bare the thought of stepping down to any form of lower quality coffee after living in a house with an HX machine for so long. *I dont mind learning the quirks of the machine (thats half the fun), but I need to know that this little bad boy can cut the mustard. *Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

    Thanks everyone,
    Rob.

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    Re: Iberital review

    Rob,
    dont even think about it. How much pain you are going through to see if one product matches up to the one you really want. Save up or say your buying a house and mortgage yourself to the hilt.

    Quality still remains long after the price is forgotten". An oldie I know




    Dill

  8. #8
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    Ihug, Ive said before in this forum about the Iberital: Grind too fine, and it will leave Silvia, and, I suspect, any other machine, going purple in the cheeks gasping for breath trying to push through water. In other words, it is by far more than a match for Silvias alleged idiosyncrasies. Many a time Ive had coffee very reluctantly drip, drip, drip out after more than a judicious time because the extra-fine grinds caused too buch back-pressure.

    The build is very sturdy, steel body. Weve been grinding away, about 60 grams a day, every day, since February and the burrs are in the same conditions they where for their very first grind.

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    Hi Rob,

    Basically, I support what the other chasps have already said. If youre talking about maybe spending $350 on an MDF, why not put the extra small change in the kitty and buy a Rocky D/L? Im sure one of our Site Sponsors would be able to give you a very good deal on one.

    Conversely, the Ibertal Conical (I think they also make a Flat Burr grinder too) is a very capable grinder and well suited to a Silvia and many other high-end machines. Conical burrs are actually superior in performance than Flat ones you know.... mainly because for a given overall diameter, the Conical burrs have a much larger burr cutting surface area and as a result, can mill the beans at a significantly lower speed than a Flat burr grinder and thereby reduce the risk of excessive heating of the bean cuttings due to friction. The Conical burr design also allows for much more accurate and consistent cutting size control as well since the very design of one cone fitting into another is self centring, where-as Flat burrs require a much more robust burr carrier design to try and hold the burrs parallel to each other despite the situation where one side of the burr system might be trying to cut through beans of different size and hardness with respect to the other. This is a pretty common situation where blended coffees are concerned. The only possible downside to the Ibertal grinders though, is that they use a "Stepless" grind size control. This may prove to be inconvenient if you use the same grinder for a wide range of coffee brewing techniques. It is a definite "plus" though if you are only going to use it for your espresso machine.

    Conical burrs by their very design are also a cleaner operating grinder because the cuttings fall through the centre of the burrs and out through a chute, as opposed to the Flat burrs which depend on centrifugal force to "fling" the bean cuttings to the periphery of the rotating burr and eventually out of the chute. This also leads to an eventual build-up of stale cuttings that require much more frequent removal because of the larger quantities that accumulate and much more quickly too than for a Conical burr system.

    Why do Rancilio and others use Flat Burrs instead of Conical ones? Because, for a given throughput, a Flat burr machine is cheaper to produce than a Conical design. Large commercial grinders are nearly always of Conical burr design because of improved efficiencies, accuracy and simplicity of construction of the complete grinder. Driving a higher throughput Conical grinder requires that the rotating burr rotates at a slower speed for a similar throughput Flat burr grinder because of the previously mentioned increased cutting surface area. This can be achieved in one of two ways basically.... via a reduction speed gearbox or via a slower speed motor (more expensive to manufacture). In a small domestic grinder running from a 1-Phase A.C. supply, it is much more economical to go via the reduction gearbox route and this is what Ibertal, Lux and others have done. Large commercial grinders with Conical burr systems are generally 3-Phase A.C. designs and use low-speed 3-Phase motors which are significantly cheaper to manufacture than equivalent 1-Phase units.

    So, there you have it... Conical burr designs are better but limited to either small low throughput domestic designs or large 3-Phase Commercial high throughput designs. In the end, I think you would have to possess a very discriminating palate to be able to distinguish the benefits over one design to another but such people do exist and where they have committed their opinions to print, they most often prefer coffee produced that has been ground or milled with a Conical grinder. Im afraid my palate is unable to detect the sorts of subtleties that are involved with this type of comparison and I am more than happy with using my Rocky ;D.

    All the best,
    Mal.

  10. #10
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    Well said, Mal. A very thorough, in-depth and informative evaluation of both types of grinders.
    You are spot on with the stepless Iberital adjustment. It can be a pain, but Ive "invented" a marker to tell me exactly where the setting is. Ill put up a picture soon. On the upside, each turn of the knob makes such a tiny difference that theres no fear of over-correcting.


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    Re: Iberital review

    Great comments guys - thanks so much.

    On the weekend I went and had a look at a Lux, Iberital Challenge, Rocky, and MDF grinders. I went down to Coffee Company on Carlisle st which is only about a 3 min drive from my house and really close to my gym (how could I not have noticed this shop for so long???) Anyway, I have determined that for the amount of coffee I will be grinding, a Rocky is simply overkill. I may be making as few as 6 coffees per week (its just me and wifee in the house, and wifee doesnt drink much coffee)

    Coffee Company had the stainless steel plated MDF for only $299rrp - great price! They had the Challenge for $270rrp, and the lux was the same I think. They also seem willing to bargain and im confident I could get a Challenge/Lux for sub $250 (contrast that to the price of the Rocky, and the Rocky is just out of reach).

    I got to hear the lux grinder working and decided that it is a sound that I can live with more easily than the MDF (that thing is LOUD) So I think ill get either the doserless Challenge, or the doserless Lux.

    I guess my decision now comes down to weighing up if I want pre-timed grinding sessions (as offered by the Challenge) or the more simple on/off action of the Lux. I think the timed grinding amount is a great idea because then once you work out exactly how long 14g (or whatever) of coffee takes to grind, you can adjust the preset duration of the timed grind. However this may change depending on the beans... hmmm....

    Does anyone know if the type of bean can effect how long it takes to grind? This would influence whether or not I get a Lux or a Challenge.

    Thanks again for the great comments - much appreciated!
    Rob

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    They type of bean, the level of roast, and the fineness of the grind will all effect how long it takes to grind a given quantity.

    Java "Working on the roaster" phile

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    Re: Iberital review

    I own a Lux, and it has served me well for the last few years, but if I was buying a new grinder in your price range Id get the Iberital in a heartbeat. The steps in the grind adjustment on the Lux are just too large to work well with the Silvia. Sure you can work around it a bit through tamp pressure and dose amount, or you can mod the Lux to get finer adjustment, but Id just buy the Iberital.

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    Re: Iberital review

    Does anyone know where / if these are available in Perth ?

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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    I went down to Coffee Company on Carlisle st

    Thats where I got my Iberital/Silvia combo. Highly recommended for price, and service. The place is unbelievable. Not just a good place to buy machinery, but a professional cafe as well.

    And they have a huge roasting operation there too. They also have many machines to *demonstrate and compare, using their freshly-roasted beans.

    But what reall knocked my socks off was the gratis latte they made while I waited for the new Silvia to warm up so they could give me my first coffee lesson.

    Without a doubt, it was *the most amazing, best, smoothest, greatest-tasting coffee Ive ever had. Anywhere.

    www.coffeecompany.com.au

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    Re: Iberital review

    It certainly seemed like a great shop. I was really happy when I walked in and saw that they roasted their own beans too - however I think Ciscos (formerly called Santos) on Chapel st will give them a run for their money! In terms of Coffee expertise (i.e. all about the bean and roasting etc...), Fred Gomo from Ciscos is the most knowledgable person I have ever spoken to. He used to do an annual radio show on Triple RRR (in Melbourne) with the DJ Hedly late at night - it was a great show.

    So for those of us in the Metro suburbs of Melbourne, we have a couple of great places nearby to buy freshly roasted beans: Coffee Company, and Ciscos. Anyone got any other places theyd recommend?

    Also, thanks for the comments on the grinders! I have made my decision and will go with an Iberital Challenge doserless grinder. I had a look at the doser version but it seems that the doser is *extremely* el-cheapo. Even the Gaggia MDF doser is crap. So ill go doserless.

    Now I just need to build a table to put the machine and grinder on. The 45 year-old flat that wifee and I rent has hardly any bench space! Putting the Silvia and grinder on the bench will take up over 33% of the available bench space....


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    Re: Iberital review

    Hmmmm... starting to reconsider this decision. Can someone tell me why a Rocky is better than a Lux or MDF?
    I.e. is it just a case of a steel body, good looks etc... or does it actually grind better?
    I also saw a Cunill Tranquilo for quite a bit cheaper than a Rocky and apparently it has bigger burs too.

    I just dont want to have to spend several hundred dollars again in a year or two because the grinder died. I need something that will last at least 4 years. Would an Iberital Challenge last this long? The world of coffee is alot like the world of PC gamers - everything has a tradeoff and there is SO MUCH to choose from.

    Rob

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    Re: Iberital review

    Quote Originally Posted by ihug007 link=1110157172/15#16 date=1124251542
    Hmmmm... starting to reconsider this decision. *Can someone tell me why a Rocky is better than a Lux or MDF?
    I.e. is it just a case of a steel body, good looks etc... or does it actually grind better?
    I also saw a Cunill Tranquilo for quite a bit cheaper than a Rocky and apparently it has bigger burs too.

    Rob
    I am no expert on this and I am not selling them either, but I reckon that the lux will do as good a grind as any of the others. *It is also conical which supposed to be better for the coffee as it is grinding at a slower RPM so it keeps the coffee cooler and makes a more consistent grind. *Less left over coffee will stay in between the burrs also due to the conical shape of the burrs, as the coffee falls through down the middle. *The burrs should last longer then an equivalent flat burr machine also. *It is nice and small and is of quality built. *The Rocky is not a conical grinder as far as I know but some like it better because it has steppless adjutsments unlike the Luxs steppet adjustment. *The lux works fine with its steppless adjustment, though. So far I never need adjustment sbetween the steps it has. *The more you pay the more bling and size you get with bigger burrs that will last longer in a commercial or heavy use setting.
    If you only make a couple of coffees per day at home, like me, the Lux should last you forever. *I do like the Lux that I bought off Attilio from CosmoreX, one of the sponsors of this forum. *
    By the way the Lux has stainless steel body and it looks good, is by far the smallest, and takes the least space on the benchtop.

    I reckon, all you need is the Lux, but most will justify why they forked out so much more for their grinders, just like their espresso machines. *If money is no object, then go for the more expensive ones, but if it is somewhat of an issue, then just go for the Lux and it will not dissapoint you for many years to come, I reckon. * [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

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    Re: Iberital review

    Thanks Monti,

    Money certainly is an issue. I have several other things I need to spend money on (i.e. desperately need to update my PC ~ $600 right there) and other possibley more important stuff too. However I feel like I simply cant take not having good coffee anymore and must prioritise this expense accordingly.

    Regarding the quality of grind on the Lux vs Rocky. After some more reading and looking at the two machines, Im lead to believe the price difference is mainly due to a couple of things as follows:
    * The market will bear a higher price tag on the Rocky, regardless of the fact that it may not last any longer than any other grinder it competes against or have any more/better features. E.g. the Gaggia MDF has almost the same specs, but is over $100 cheaper. Also the Iberital Challenge has more in the way of features (adjustable auto timed doses etc...) but cost WAY less.
    * Rocky has a steel/brass assembly that holds the burrs, Lux/Iberital have plastic composite ones. This would most likely cost Rancilio a few more dollars during manufacture.
    * Rocky has a larger motor - the same one used in some of its bigger machines apparently. However, this usually saves a company money during production because they are sharing parts amongst their product lineup and can therefore buy/manufacture them in great economies of scale.

    I think the Rocky is a great product, but im not convinced it grinds any better than an MDF or Lux/Iberital. The arguments "its a Rocky" or "it looks beautiful" dont cut it for me, though I agree it truly does look beautiful :)

    I have also read the comment "The Rocky will be the only grinder you ever buy" many times, however this is a moot point since no one seems to keep them longer than a couple years before upgrading to a Mazza Mini, et al. Anyway you cut it, the Rocky, along with the Lux/Iberital etc... are still just high-end domestic machines that have been designed with scaled down commerical parts (kind of like how a Silvia is a high-end domestic machine, made from scaled down commerical Rancilio parts). I guess eventually everyone wants to get real commercial equipment. ;D

    So after all this ranting, I think I will just stick with the Iberital Challenge. Its uglier than the Rocky, but will do just as good a job, plus it has a few more features (adjustable auto timed doses, infinite grind worm adjustment) and need I mention its over $170 cheaper? I havent read a bad thing about it yet....


  20. #20
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital review

    Hi again Rob,

    Speaking as one who now uses a Rocky, the main reason for changing over from my previous Lux grinder was one mainly of grinding rate when there are half-a-dozen or more expectant imbibers waiting for their espressos/cappas, etc the Lux was just a bit too slow. It was also a bit too noisy and made it difficult if not impossible to carry on a conversation while grinding... the Rocky is much quieter.

    For me, it is also a bit easier to use than the Lux as I dont have very good dexterity after a couple of strokes and the orientation just suits me better. Its a pretty substantial beast though, weighs the same as my Mokita and once its sited on the benchtop, thats where it stays. According to respected coffee afficiandos, the Rocky and other Flat Burr grinders do not produce as sweet a brew as a Conical Burr grinder but I think that difference can only be detected by a very few people with exceptional and discriminating palates. Me? I cant tell the difference.

    So, thats it in a nutshell. If you like the Ibertal from the cosmetic and ergonomic viewpoints, be assured that you are grinding your coffee with the best grinding method currently available to the domestic market and at a very attractive price. Go for it I say,

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Iberital review

    I sell & service both Lux and Rocky but not Iberital.

    From the point of view of reading what youve written above, about what youve been reading on the net, and knowing what I know from an actual working / industry point of view about these 2 grinders, I can make the following observations...

    Mal has about hit the nail on the head with his observations. The rocky is solid, heavy, bigger, and therefore actually easier to work with and around. There is nothing more frustrating, especially when entertaining, than to work around a light, flimsy piece of equipment that keeps moving around or falling over while you are trying to use it, or is simply difficult because of its small size.

    In addition as you have read, Rocky has a far better standard of build using better quality parts and therefore it will give FAR LESS service problems a long time down the track, which will also be a long time after the other grinder has been retired ( & that is not to say the other is not a good grinder for the price, simply that it wont last as long due to the standard & quality of build &*parts used...).

    In addition, the stronger motor for me, is an extremely important point as we see enough grinders that for whatever reason (and most times it is the clients fault) have been "jamed up" with coffee and the motor is precariously close to failing....the strong rocky motor is a damn fine thing. And by the way, who cares if the initial cost of the stronger motor cost this manufacturer less....irrelevant. This has nothing to do with what they wish to charge for you to buy the finished grinder. What is relevant, is that the client has a win because the manufacturer uses a better strionger motor.

    I am not making these observations from the point of view of wanting to sell you, or anyone else a grinder by the way, *but if *I was buying a grinder I would be buying the heavier stronger larger machine that is easier to work around and will have an indefinite service life in my home. I buy on quality, not price, although price is something to be seriously considered (and discarded if the quality is not there).

    To put it all into perspective. I dont know what the Iberital sells for but the for the $165.00 difference between the RRP of Lux VS Rocky, I personally would buy the Rocky. There is nothing wrong with the standard of quality of grind of the Lux but the Lux is cheaper to buy up front, and will cost you MORE money in the long run because it will require fixing or replacing sometime down the track. The Rocky wont, except in circumstances where you just feel like upgrading because you want to.

    Spend the extra, only buy once, and the extra amount spent will pale into insignificance when calculated at an annual rate over the life of the grinder (which will be a considerable number of years).

    Regardz,
    FC.

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    Re: Iberital review

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1110157172/15#20 date=1124319180
    I sell & service both Lux and Rocky but not Iberital.

    The rocky is solid, heavy, bigger, and therefore actually easier to work with and around. There is nothing more frustrating, especially when entertaining, than to work around a light, flimsy piece of equipment that keeps moving around or falling over while you are trying to use it, or is simply difficult because of its small size.
    Keeps moving around? *Light and flimsy? *You sold me a light and flimsy grinder, FC? *You didnt tell me that when you sold me the Lux! I had a laugh
    Anyway, It doesnt move around for me when I use it at all. *You just have to rest the pf on the holder and push it against the switch and you have fresh gound coffee in seconds. *I never move around it and it has never fallen over either. *

    [edit]In addition as you have read, Rocky has a far better standard of build using better quality parts and therefore it will give FAR LESS service problems a long time down the track, which will also be a long time after the other grinder has been retired ( & that is not to say the other is not a good grinder for the price, simply that it wont last as long due to the standard & quality of build &*parts used...).[/edit]

    You told me the Lux was as good as any other. *For domestic purposes it should last for ages. *

    In addition, the stronger motor for me, is an extremely important point as we see enough grinders that for whatever reason (and most times it is the clients fault) have been "jamed up" with coffee and the motor is precariously close to failing....the strong rocky motor is a damn fine thing.
    My Lux never seems to be strugling. *:-?

    There is nothing wrong with the standard of quality of grind of the Lux but the Lux is cheaper to buy up front, and will cost you MORE money in the long run because it will require fixing or replacing sometime down the track. The Rocky wont, except in circumstances where you just feel like upgrading because you want to.
    What is a long run? *more then 10 years? *15 maybe? *Most would want to get a new one before that happens, no? *:-/
    We are talking 1 or 2 coffees per day here. *Arent we? *Not 50 -100 per day. *The Rocky costs 60% more, so it better last 60% more as well. *I would assume that the service parts would cost 60% more too as they are "better quality". No? *So, would we be saving money at all having the Rocky?

    Spend the extra, only buy once, and the extra amount spent will pale into insignificance when calculated at an annual rate over the life of the grinder (which will be a considerable number of years).
    If you are unlucky and if it breaks down it will also cost you more for the parts. *Does it not? *It is a Rocky after all.

    All that matters at the end of the day is whether the ginder grinds to the standard that is required. *Otherwise we could be spending megabucks on equipment. *Should we all have the most expensive espresso machines and grinders? *If a machine can produce the required espresso or grind every time, then well all be happy. *Is how long it lasts much of an issue when you make 1-2 coffees a day? *

    I wouldnt mind getting a Rocky or a Mazzer Mini if money was no object, but it is. *There has to be a diminishing benefit when you spend more money on something. *Can we at home tap into the extra benefits that more expensie machines can offer? *If they all have just as good grinds and if we dont do much volume then do we benefit much from a stronger motor? *I dont know. * :-/ *
    How much is a replacement motor for the Lux versus the Rocky, anyway? *Wouldnt you have to be very unlucky to have your motor not last for 10 years in one of these?
    You could get 2 Lux grinders for $500, or one Rocky for $400. *
    It is hard to see the expensive grinders as good value. *They would be better quality and may have better features if you want them, but the ground coffee coming out of the spout is still the same quality. *
    Like Mal cannot tell the difference between the taste of coffee from a conical versus a flat burr grinder, we cannot, also, tell the difference between the coffee from any of these grinders, indeed.

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    Re: Iberital review

    Gday Monti.

    I feel you may be taking me out of context a little here. From memory when you bought your grinder, you already knew what you wanted. I dont remember there being much discussion about a comparison with other grinders....or if there was it was probably only in passing. Perhaps my recollection has faded?

    Yes the lux is a good little grinder and many of the points you have made are quite valid....I didnt say it wasnt. I am only pointing out differences from the point of view of a straight comparison of grinders as has been put to the members above.

    On the one hand I can listen to a clients needs and point them in the right direction for them, and on the other hand *I can also make an unemotional critical analysis between 2 pieces of equipment. These are two entirely separate issues.

    The remarks I made concerning the grinder moving about, falling over etc, are purely my own personal observations tempered through years of experience with commercial quality equipment. I probably would not have the Lux at my home.....I have no patience for its small light *construction as I am quite "rough and ready" when making coffee...this doesnt mean it is not probably the best under $300.00 grinder in the domestic market....just that to go to not much more than $400.00 gets you (me) a much better one for reasons other than just straight grind quality.

    The Lux will last for ages, a Rocky or Cafe Tranquilo will last longer.

    The Lux has a slightly "complicated" method of assembly around the hopper / adjuster / burr set, and some clients cant seem to put them back together the same way they came apart (when theyre in there cleaning). It is not uncommon for them to bring the grinder in with motor struggling, because theyve re-assembled it with burrs too close together, unable to work out why its grinding talcum powder and on the verge of burning itself out. This wont happen with Rocky or Tranquilo with their more conventional & simple method of assembly, flat burrs and simple (mostly) metal parts.

    Mind you, the above (struggling motor syndrome) wouldnt happen if the owners would keep out of places where they shouldnt have been in the first place.

    The price difference between a Lux and a Rocky ( and a tranquilo) ...for a coffeesnob....is insignificant when you compare them as has been done above. In fact, they are basically in the "cheap" end of the quality market...for a coffessnob, because to go to a lesser grinder than the Lux, is basically not to have a decent grinder at all.....but you are right, I wouldnt necessarily have an "expensive" grinder either, because it wont do any more for me than a simple rocky doserless or tranquilo (except for the lack of mess).

    I guess then, we are all allowed to have a different personal preference!

    Regardz,
    FC.

  24. #24
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    Re: Iberital review

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee link=1110157172/15#22 date=1124335617
    Gday Monti.

    I feel you may be taking me out of context a little here. From memory when you bought your grinder, you already knew what you wanted. I dont remember there being much discussion about a comparison with other grinders....or if there was it was probably only in passing. Perhaps my recollection has faded?
    Sorry if I did take you out of context, FC. *I didnt mean to.
    When we first met I didnt know anything about the Lux or any other grinder in fact. *I saw it first at CosmoreX. *I asked what you think of the Lux, Macap, and whatever you had there, and you said that the Lux will do as good a job as any of the others and for home use there is no real need to go more expensive. *Was no mention about longetivity. *Because of your advice I came back to purchase the Lux. *And I am glad I did. *It fulfills my need perfectly. *

    The remarks I made concerning the grinder moving about, falling over etc, are purely my own personal observations tempered through years of experience with commercial quality equipment. I probably would not have the Lux at my home.....I have no patience for its small light *construction as I am quite "rough and ready" when making coffee...this doesnt mean it is not probably the best under $300.00 grinder in the domestic market....just that to go to not much more than $400.00 gets you (me) a much better one for reasons other than just straight grind quality.
    If the criteria is not the grind quality but that it is heavy, then you just need to bolt it down or onto something heavy. *;D It is still going to be cheaper then the rest and it wont move about.
    OK, I was only joking. *

    The Lux will last for ages, a Rocky or Cafe Tranquilo will last longer.
    So, the question is whether one needs a grinder that lasts for ages, or ages plus longer. *;)
    Ok, I am sorry, I just couldnt help myself.

    It is not uncommon for them to bring the grinder in with motor struggling, because theyve re-assembled it with burrs too close together, unable to work out why its grinding talcum powder and on the verge of burning itself out.

    Mind you, the above (struggling motor syndrome) wouldnt happen if the owners would keep out of places where they shouldnt have been in the first place.
    So, it is not that the motor going to break down, it is rather, that some people do what they shouldnt and break it. * ::)
    Ill probably be one of those. *:-[
    The price difference between a Lux and a Rocky ( and a tranquilo) ...for a coffeesnob....is insignificant when you compare them as has been done above. In fact, they are basically *in the "cheap" end of the quality market...for a coffessnob..............
    Price difference (especially a 60% one, as Rocky $400 which is $150 more on top of the Lux at $250) is always significant. *I guess it is not for those that sell it. *For those that buy it, it always is, whether you are a CoffeeSnob or not. *I am in sales too and it is amazing how much people bargain just to get anything off something. *If it wasnt then none of us on this forum would be always talking about how much cheaper we can get the coffee machines and grinders somewhere else. *That is why you always offer discounts to people here. *If it wouldnt matter then we wouldnt ask and you wouldnt offer. *Salesmen always say that the price is not an issue, but it always is for the buyer. *Upselling is good for the seller as the profit margin is also larger. *One would make more on a Rocky then on a Lux. *Just like youd make hardly anything on a Sunbeam as opposed to the Giotto. *

    I guess then, we are all allowed to have a different personal preference!
    Of course we are. *I am only talking about how I see it. *No hard feelings if someone doesnt agree. *I want you guys to know that I do(and I do often) like to conside things from a different angle. *I dont mean to force anyone to agree with me. *I hope that it just creates conversation and we might learn something. *

    I have learned a lot from your posts. *Often the more controversial a topic is (or I am) the more people with knowledge write and the more we all learn. *It has to be good. *:)

  25. #25
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    Re: Iberital review

    Quote Originally Posted by ihug007 link=1110157172/0#10 date=1124069040
    Great comments guys - thanks so much. *
    *Anyway, I have determined that for the amount of coffee I will be grinding, a Rocky is simply overkill. *I may be making as few as 6 coffees per week (its just me and wifee in the house, and wifee doesnt drink much coffee) **
    Thats still a coffee every day, basically. A good grinder is probably more important than the machine, so its best to spend more than you feel you have to. With an inferior quality grinder, youll not enjoy the 6 per week. Youll certainly up your intake when you make coffee from a well set up, good quality grinder. Whether its 6 or 60, quality is number 1.
    Most of us are looking for justification to spend more, rather than less, so I respect your restraint!!

  26. #26
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    Re: Iberital review

    Quote Originally Posted by el espressio link=1110157172/15#24 date=1124396850

    Thats still a coffee every day, basically. *A good grinder is probably more important than the machine, so its best to spend more than you feel you have to. *With an inferior quality grinder, youll not enjoy the 6 per week. *Youll certainly up your intake when you make coffee from a well set up, good quality grinder. *Whether its 6 or 60, quality is number 1. *
    Quality of ground coffee is numer 1, for sure, and the Lux grinds to the same quality as the Rocky or even more expensive grinders. *You are paying for bling and maybe longetivity as you go more expensive. *If the Lux would grind to inferior quality, then I would agree with you. *But it doesnt. *So, you are going to enjoy your coffee just the same. *
    One coffee per day is far from high volume for these grinders, so longetivity shouldnt be the problem, unless you are naughty, going to take them appart and start doing things to it you shouldnt, like FC said.

  27. #27
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    Re: Iberital review

    imho you can tell a lot about a grinder just by picking it up!

    I picked up the Lux grinder at Supreme Machines the other day and the quality is nowhere near that of a Rocky or most other grinders.

    Im sure it works but the build quality is nowhere near the same and were not talking small differences here but BIG differences.

    Just walk into a shop and do the pickup test.

    The Rocky weighs about 7kg according to my manual and the Nemox Lux weighs about 2kg!

    There really is no comparison and considering the difference in price the Rocky is excellent value.

    Grant

  28. #28
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    Re: Iberital review

    The pick-up test will not tell you how it grinds. *Isnt how it grinds why we buy the grinder? * ::)

    What about grind test and taste test? *I would say, they would be more important. *

    If the Lux grinds as good as the Rocky then its smaller size and weight makes it more convenient. *

    Also, the fact that it is a conical grinder allows it to be smaller. *The surface area of the same size conical burrs are larger then the equal size flat burrs, anyway. *The Luxs performance (and that is what counts after all not the weight) is better then its size juggests.

    What ends up in the cup is what we are all interested in after all. That is why many here buy the Sylvia, otherwise we would all just spend more and get a Giotto or something even more expensive and "heavy". ;)
    We could all go for the overkill, even though some of us only consume one coffee per day, to make sure that our equipments last long enough to pass them down to our grandchildren. *But really, all we need and want is the best coffee we can end up in the cup for the least money outlay.

    While there is nothing wrong with spending more money (and I am going to purchase another grinder and machine before the end of the year) if you can afford it, but when someone that doesnt drink much coffee asks for advice on grinders and the money is tight then performance for the least money has to be what is important. *His coffee will be just as good as if he bought the Rocky for and extra $150 or so. *

  29. #29
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    Re: Iberital review

    I love a good debate!

    I certainly can appreciate quality - I was brought up to always buy the very best, almost with blatant disregard to cost. Dad was an aircraft engine mechanic in the Air Force, hence my indoctrination to quality comes first at all cost. I guess because if you skimp on quality when youre fixing up a jet engine, people can die... :-/

    However, since Im not exactly a high income earner I really have to stick to a budget here. Also, were talking about coffee, not life and death (perhaps to some it is!?) And Im still renting (read: I need to put money towards a house)

    SO, a lot of this comes down to how we choose to prioritise our finances. After doing my reasearch I was originally only going to buy a Gaggia Carezza, but then due to my quality indoctrination, I decided to wait and save more for a Silvia.

    I would love to buy the Rocky - it looks beautiful and is clearly better constructed. However, the Iberital is clearly fit for purpose, and at only 60% of the cost, Ill have to pass on the Rocky. Regarding replacing motors etc... I did a lot of electronics/communcation engineering stuff at university and have no concern about having to do a simple repair like that (though I doubt I would have to since I take good care of my stuff).

    Anyway guys, thanks heaps for the lively discussion! I think basically it boils down to this: Toyota, or Audi? They are both reliable cars that take you places, but one is just better quality :D Guess im just a Toyota guy at this stage in life!

    Rob

  30. #30
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    Re: Iberital review

    Rob

    If a Mazzer or even the higher priced machines are out of your budget so be it, I too live in a world of limited funds and I fully understand what your saying.

    If your looking around for a grinder then please concider the Cunil Tranquillo grinder, 64mm blades say a lot for this machine, we have one, and I certainly do have a couple of gripes with it, however in the 12 months that we have had it we have ploughed through close to 20-30kgs of coffee whether it has been for our own personal consumption of grinding cofee for friends, the grinder has done its jobs and has overall behaved itself very well.

    Im not certain of the price of it now but I saw them not so long back for close to $300.... I would say the biggest problem I have with it is the noise, but as it only has a pressed steel housing this is expected.

    Whatever grinder you choose it is you alone who is going to have to live with it.

    regards

    FB

  31. #31
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    Re: Iberital review

    The tranquilo looks like a fine grinder, ten times the grinder that the lux is, for sure. I like the design and it looks tough and built to last. It also has the removable hopper and a robust stepped adjustment. How many adjustment points and are they numbered?

    Grant

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    Re: Iberital review

    The Cunill Tranquillo sure is a fine machine, but it has to be the ugliest of all. *Before you buy that one, make sure to picture it in your mind what it will look like next to your espresso machine on the kitchen bench. * :o *Finding parts and service for it will be harder then any of the other machines talked about here too, I reckon.


  33. #33
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    Re: Iberital review

    Monti,

    there is no problem with bits / service for the Tranquilo. And I might add, there will be very little requirement for them (bits / service). Its a very sturdy & reliable, no frills small commercial grinder.

    The price as mentioned above however is another issue. There are quite a few unprofessional traders cashing in on the interest in coffee and machines by selling all and sundry bits and pieces in ebay & elsewhere, at rock bottom prices. *They need to turn over a hell of a lot of stock to keep their kids in school and with a roof over their head, considering I know what the equipment costs at wholesale before you add your margin.

    If you are lucky enough to get some equipment at rock bottom price thats great, but just remember you are not dealing with a regular shop front from whom you can get "service and advice", who you can talk to face to face, and to whom you can refer any likely problems in the future. It costs money to give and or to get service, and to carry a stock of spare parts etc.

    The problem then, is that subsequent questions regarding the equipment are directed to forums like this, *where there is little input from those most able to give professional experienced advice and why should they (give input), except if there was s sytem put into place so they can charge for the consultation. Advice, that should / could have been obtained directly and in a few short minutes, from a regular shopfront vendor that might have made the sale, but at a higher, but fair price.

    In future, when all the regular shopfront vendors have been knocked out of the game by all the internet & discount artists operating on a shoestring with no service, we will be faced with buying all our equipment from compurter generated voices at the end of a telephone line that will say words to th effect of:
    Press 1 if you wish to purchase a grinder OR
    Press2 if you wish to buy a coffee machine.
    Press 3 if you wish to purchase a tranqiuilo;
    Press 4 if you wish to purchase a rocky;
    press 5 if you wish to purchase a lux;
    Press 6 to get to the payment section;
    Now enter your credit card numbers etc;
    Press 9 to OK the transaction....

    Right now P OFF because now I have your money and the item is being mail ordered out to you, thats the limit of the "service" I am going to give you and if you have any questions or other requirements, ask someone who cares (that would be someone "else")!

    If we keep going at this rate, all selling will be monopolisd by "remotely positioned" (in terms of location) discount artists offering absolutely no service, and our shopping centres will be full of empty deserted shops. Private and public investment in property owneship will be a thing of the past, the stock market, property sector & building industries will have crashed...families everywhere will be ruined!

    No one will talk to anyone else, and the only form of comunication will be by people (impersonally) emailing eachother asking for your lowest possible price. Telephones will be a banned (you cant have people commiunicating with eachother).


    .....Playing the devils advocate as usual, but need to go and take some anti depressants quick smart before they come and take me away hehe haha to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time and Ill be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats...........


    Regardz,
    FC.

  34. #34
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    Re: Iberital review

    I agree with you, FC, all the way.
    That is why I am gald that I gave you my money for the Lux then someone else through the internet. *I did find talking to you informative and I have learned a lot. *I rather support the business of someone like you who is passionate about coffee and got his experience through many years of being in the industry and put hard work into building his own business. *
    Mind you, the price still had to be right, but as you mached the price of someone else, I was more then happy.

    I think, though, for some people, bargain hunting is what they like, but there are a lot of people that prefer face to face, seeing, touching, trying, comparing, etc, and that is where specialty shops like yours come in that not only allow that but also provide coffee machines cleaning products, beans, syrups and more. *There will always be some that buy the bread rolls from a chinese bakery and some that buy the same from Bakers Delight. One will not drive the other out of business. *Those that go to one will not like to go to the other. *

    Internet is here to stay, and now it is more important then ever for shop owners like you to provide exepional *service and to build up a close friendly clientbase that return for many years to come. *When people come in the shop they must feel like they are family, and have to feel as if the shop was their own. *If they know you better then just a guy that sells coffee stuff then they never want to give their money to anyone behind a firewall on the internet. *It is about building relationships not selling stuff. *But we all know that, anyway. *

    Now, back to the topic...............and the Tranquilo is still one ugly grinder. *[smiley=laugh.gif]

  35. #35
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    Re: Iberital review

    Hi All,

    I guess when it is all boiled down, the significant criteria for decision making on which grinder to buy are, but not limited to:
    • Budget
    • Usage
    • Quality of Manufacture, and
    • Quality of Grind

    The "weighting" that an individual places upon each of these criterion will vary somewhat except for "Quality of Grind". For the rest though there will always be a wide range of variability and so long as the last criterion is placed first in importance, the rest will follow in behind... simple as that.

    I will always defer to the experience and knowledge of a professional such as FC when it comes to specifics but if the aim is to try and buy a grinder that satisfies criterion #4 for the least outlay, then a Lux, an Ibertal or possibly a Tranquilo (no personal experience with these) will be ideal candidates. If ones main criterion is #3, then the sky, as they say, is the limit... and thats fine too because it all comes down to an individuals personal choice.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

    Oh, and for Monti ;D , I should add another criterion.... * Appearance :-X

  36. #36
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    Re: Iberital review

    Thanks Mal! ;)

  37. #37
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    Grinders and stuff

    Hmmm... I did try and find a seller of the Cunill but couldnt find one. Does anyone know a place that sells them in VIC?

    I was also thinking that if I wait and buy the machine at the same time as the grinder, I may be able to swing an affordable deal down at Mocopan and pick up a Rocky with the Silvia

    I went and inspected the Rockys (doser and doserless) on Saturday and was suitably impressed with the speed at which they grind, plus the excellent build quality when compared to the other grinders. I think if I were to go down the Rocky path I would get a doserless.

    So Iím leaving my options open after all. Man, just when I thought Iíd made a decision... ::)

    Ill let you guys know what ends up happening.

    Also, I saw a DVD Coffee Crazy in Dick Smith Electronics on the weekend that featured a barista - Paul Bassett? It looked like he had a sunbeam machine in the picture which leads me to believe that it may end up being included when someone purchases the new dual thermoblock Sunbeam? They were selling the DVDs separately for $12.86 I think. I must admit it did look odd seeing this dressed-up barista pulling a shot from a little Sunbeam!

  38. #38
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    Re: Iberital review

    Hey ihug007,

    Dont forget about our erstwhile site sponsors, e.g. http://www.cosmorexcoffee.com.au/appliances.htm. Im sure you would be very well looked after and not only get a good deal but plenty of free professional advice whenever you need it 8-) . This sort of advice is worth its weight in gold....

    Mal.

  39. #39
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    Re: Iberital review

    Howdy all

    I know this is a bit of an old thread now but I just thought I would add in my vote and comments on the Ibertial grinders. I got one of these babys a bit over a month ago now (doser model) and its awesome!! Was going to get a lux, but got this instead... cost $20 more, but I got it locally, its built like a tank, and has stepless adjustments! Im very happy with the grinder, and would definatly recommend one to anyone whos looking around.

    All that being said, I own a Sunbeam Cafe Crema.... so hey... Im the first to admit im still a nOOb at espresso!

    Cheers
    Mearesy

  40. #40
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    Re: Iberital review

    Hi Mearesy,

    Thanks for the input. *As it turns out, last week I bought a lightly used, 1 year old La Cimbali Domus grinder from my parents. *

    For those interested, here is a brief review on this grinder:

    For starters, you dont see many of these grinders around. However, it has the most solid construction ive seen on any small-sized grinder. Its a charcoal-black cast-steel body rather than folded sheet metal (like the Rocky) and it tips the scales around the 7kg mark. *I disassembled it to clean it and everything except the bean hopper, finger guard (which sits in the hopper) and doser chamber is steel, brass, or metal of some description. *It has a very simple, uncomplicated interior design and construction.

    The Domus uses 49mm burs and has roughly 27 grind adjustments (cant remember the exact number off the top of my head but Iím pretty sure its 27), however ive found that 2 or 3 is the ideal setting for Miss Silvia, depending on what type of bean you are grinding. *I would have liked it to have been doserless, but beggars cant be choosers! I got it for such a low price (half what I would have paid for a new Lux) that I simply couldnt refuse the deal.

    Grinding speed seems to be about average for this sized grinder. *Id say its comparable to a Rocky or Gaggia MDF in terms of output per hour.

    If anyone is interested, the Domus grinder can be purchased in Melbourne for around $470. *As a side note, if I actually had to pay that kind of money for a new grinder, I probably would choose the Doserless Rocky, since they seem to perform as well as the Domus and are slightly cheaper. *Having said that, this is built better in my opinion.

    Also, they used to sell the Cunill Tranquilio(sp?) however they said they have stopped selling it in favour of the Domus because it wasnt moving (i.e. selling) due to its looks. *By contrast, the Domus is quite attractive and is apparently starting to sell well.

    See a picture of the Domus here: http://tinyurl.com/dohks

    Cheers,
    Rob.

  41. #41
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    Re: Iberital review

    Fantastic stuff Rob!! Glad you were able to get yourself a great grinder at what sounds like an absolute bargin of a price! Certianly a nice looking, solid grinder. ;)

    Mearesy

  42. #42
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    Re: Iberital review

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1110157172/0#14 date=1124102281
    Reference to non-sponsor edited by mods

    Thats where I got my Iberital/Silvia combo. Highly recommended for price, and service. The place is unbelievable. Not just a good place to buy machinery, but a professional cafe as well.

    And they have a huge roasting operation there too. They also have many machines to demonstrate and compare, using their freshly-roasted beans.

    But what reall knocked my socks off was the gratis latte they made while I waited for the new Silvia to warm up so they could give me my first coffee lesson.

    Without a doubt, it was the most amazing, best, smoothest, greatest-tasting coffee Ive ever had. Anywhere.
    I agree with that. Theyve been a favourite of mine for many years, and I agree about the best coffee Ive ever had too. Still trying to get that result at home.

  43. #43
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    Re: Iberital review

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1110157172/0#14 date=1124102281
    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1110157172/0#14 date=1124102281
    Reference to non-sponsor edited by mods

    Thats where I got my Iberital/Silvia combo. Highly recommended for price, and service. The place is unbelievable. Not just a good place to buy machinery, but a professional cafe as well.

    And they have a huge roasting operation there too. They also have many machines to demonstrate and compare, using their freshly-roasted beans.

    But what reall knocked my socks off was the gratis latte they made while I waited for the new Silvia to warm up so they could give me my first coffee lesson.

    Without a doubt, it was the most amazing, best, smoothest, greatest-tasting coffee Ive ever had. Anywhere.
    I agree with that. Theyve been a favourite of mine for many years, and I agree about the best coffee Ive ever had too. Still trying to get that result at home.[/highlight]

    Thats where I got my Iberital/Silvia combo. Highly recommended for price, and service. The place is unbelievable. Not just a good place to buy machinery, but a professional cafe as well.

    And they have a huge roasting operation there too. They also have many machines to demonstrate and compare, using their freshly-roasted beans.

    But what reall knocked my socks off was the gratis latte they made while I waited for the new Silvia to warm up so they could give me my first coffee lesson.

    Without a doubt, it was the most amazing, best, smoothest, greatest-tasting coffee Ive ever had. Anywhere.
    I agree with that. Theyve been a favourite of mine for many years, and I agree about the best coffee Ive ever had too. Still trying to get that result at home.

  44. #44
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    Re: Iberital review

    Woo, ive got the ibertial and the sylvia, REFERENCE TO NON SPONSOR REMOVED BY MODS, great guys there,

    still trying to get around to going back t here and being shown a bit more on how to use my stuff :-)

    Members are reminded that without our sponsors, this forum would not exist. We ask that you read and note posting requirements.

  45. #45
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    Re: Iberital review

    Now, back to the topic...............and the Tranquilo is still one ugly grinder. *
    Maybe you have not seen the stainless steel version Cunill Tranquilo. Most retailers in Oz only sell the black one. Mine looks absolutely great next to my Gaggia Classic. And what a fantastic grinder as well. The squat 500g hopper fits nicely under my cupboard too.



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