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Thread: Best doserless grinder

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    Best doserless grinder

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Ive been using a Cunill Tranquilo doserless for a few years now and am looking to see if there are any suitable replacements. What would be the best doserless grinder available? I want something that grinds faster and quieter. It will be grinding for a VBM Super.

  2. #2
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    I gather there is a doserless, electronic Robur.

    You may have to cash in the superannuation.

    Greg

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    I am in the same boat-upgrading from Cunill Tranquilo to match my domus galatea.
    I think the Mazzer mini E and the macap M4D are the next step up.
    I tried out the mazzer-and it is very impressive-clean output, quieter, and minimal static problems. Feels solid. Maybe not faster though.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Best doserless grinder? Robur-e!

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 63657666656361040 link=1255181621/0#0 date=1255181621
    *I want something that grinds faster and quieter.
    Consider the Mahlkonig K30. Can grind a single dose in under 2 seconds. On the other hand, its huge and not cheap.

    Anything more expensie than the Mazzer Mini Electronic or Macap M4D would seem overkill for domestic use.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 2223293A24213B480 link=1255181621/4#4 date=1255221480
    Anything more expensive than the Mazzer Mini Electronic or Macap M4D would seem overkill for domestic use.
    I dont consider my Kony-e to be overkill in any way whatsoever.

    The big conicals make a difference in every cup IMHO.

    Chris

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 45444E5D43465C2F0 link=1255181621/4#4 date=1255221480
    Anything more expensie than the Mazzer Mini Electronic or Macap M4D would seem overkill for domestic use.
    I own and use the Macap M4D & a Doser Mazzer Major

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D404D5C5B4E5D2F0 link=1255181621/3#3 date=1255221004
    Best doserless grinder? Robur-e!
    Thats my next step

    KK

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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 585953405E5B41320 link=1255181621/4#4 date=1255221480
    Anything more expensie than the Mazzer Mini Electronic or Macap M4D would seem overkill for domestic use.
    :o
    Are you a Coffee Snob or not?

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 4975687379786F7A72791D0 link=1255181621/7#7 date=1255223646
    :o
    Are you a Coffee Snob or not?
    Ill go back in my shell. :P
    Seriously though the OP seemed only interested in speed/decibels. I guess we need more info from him/her as to what is most important.

    With regards to the top end grinders, my wife baulked at the size of the K3 Elite when I brought it home, Id hate to think what shed say about something a foot taller.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6E6F6576686D77040 link=1255181621/8#8 date=1255226584
    I guess we need more info from him/her as to what is most important.
    Not the least of which, is the available budget?

    Mal.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Thanks for the responses everyone! Sorry, I guess I was a bit vague regarding budget. I dont really have a set budget. The Cunill has served me well over a few years for minimal spend, so Im wondering what sort of improvements I could expect going up to the $700-800 range and beyond. Noise would probably be #1, speed #2. Im quite happy with the results in the cup with the Cunill.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 61677464676163060 link=1255181621/10#10 date=1255303071
    up to the $700-800 range and beyond.
    Depends how far beyond....

    Quote Originally Posted by 61677464676163060 link=1255181621/10#10 date=1255303071
    Im quite happy with the results in the cup with the Cunill.
    Your opinion may change if you try a better grinder. *I noticed a big difference in the cup when going from a Lux to a Compak K3 (doser). *Iím still happy with the results from the Lux but when comparing side by side, itís a different ballpark.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 24252F3C22273D4E0 link=1255181621/11#11 date=1255307299
    Quote Originally Posted by 61677464676163060 link=1255181621/10#10 date=1255303071
    up to the $700-800 range and beyond.
    Depends how far beyond....

    Quote Originally Posted by 61677464676163060 link=1255181621/10#10 date=1255303071
    Im quite happy with the results in the cup with the Cunill.
    Your opinion may change if you try a better grinder. *I noticed a big difference in the cup when going from a Lux to a Compak K3 (doser). *Iím still happy with the results from the Lux but when comparing side by side, itís a different ballpark.
    I also had an in-built Lux on the Nemox Cafe Del Opera and found the Cunill to be in a different league. In terms of how far beyond, I could go up to $1k, but Id have to be able to justify the price by what it delivers. Mind you, this is for domestic use only.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    What grinders are out there that are both conical and doserless?

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C6A79696A6C6E0B0 link=1255181621/13#13 date=1255319510
    What grinders are out there that are both conical and doserless?
    Hi Garbage, depends ont he price/quality...

    Cheapies- Iberital, Sunbeam, Nemox et al
    Expensive $2k+ Mazzer Robur-e and Kony-e, Malkoenig, BNZ etc. Compak have also just released a K10 electronic doserless prototype which looks promising.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    K10-E would be an interesting concept! I tend to think of these as more frugal than the BNZ & Robur.


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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    In the $1K range Id be looking at a Macap. (But then Im prejudiced cause I own a M4D.)

    Greg

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Is there a noticeable difference in the cup when going from a $600 grinder to a $1000 grinder to a $2000 grinder? Where would be the biggest leap in taste?

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D6B78686B6D6F0A0 link=1255181621/17#17 date=1255344057
    Is there a noticeable difference in the cup when going from a $600 grinder to a $1000 grinder to a $2000 grinder? *Where would be the biggest leap in taste?
    Ya... The wallet has a fine sense of taste

    ONce ya get over High quality burrs and level of control; it then becomes BLING *;D *along with throughput and quality of build..


    For home use I dont see that the top end is required... Unless the wallet demands it... You your in competition with the in-laws... *For those that depend on consistency and uptime then the extra $$$ will pay for it self over time etc.. *

    COuld the average drinker tell.. *NO... Could a true buff tell... *Cheep Vs top end good chance /maybe... *If they looked at the puck YES...

    Mid to top end... *Doubt if they could pick teh difference with any high degree of consistency... *Access to teh puck, may assist...

    Unfortunately, my wallet has a strong taste for money and hates to regurgitates what it gets... *Thus I only have bottom end... *But hoping to get some back once my TAX comes back... A $600 - $800 grinder will see me done and dusted for home use.

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    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 66607363606664010 link=1255181621/12#12 date=1255317169
    Mind you, this is for domestic use only.
    I dont consider that relevant if you are after good coffee

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 71776474777173160 link=1255181621/17#17 date=1255344057
    Is there a noticeable difference in the cup when going from a $600 grinder to a $1000 grinder to a $2000 grinder? *Where would be the biggest leap in taste?
    From $600 - $1,000.... Yes, for my and my sons palates at least.
    From $1,000 - $2,000 and upwards.... I would say so but probably not as noticeable a difference as that in the first tier.

    Probably the most significant difference though, is in a category you havent mentioned, i.e. from $200 - $600 grinder et al. At that, and providing you do everything right, the leap in quality is of a quantum order.

    The thing with top echelon grinders like the ones mentioned by Chris above, they will produce the goods day in, day out for a thousand years or for as long as they still make burr-sets for em. Youre paying a much higher price for the ruggedness of build and the fact that they just dont make as many of them in order to achieve a "quantity of scale" effect.

    Also, to manufacture a conical grinder that is capable of consistently high grind accuracy coupled with acceptable longevity, requires much more attention paid to the design of the burr carrying system and the manner in which the loads are transferred through to the motor thrust bearing(s). Worth every penny in a high pressure commercial environment but only a coffee snob can determine whether its worth spending this sort of money on something destined for home use.... ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    I know a number of us who can taste the difference between large conicals and flat burr grinders. Not sure what all the hating is - if I was in the market for a thousand dollar grinder - Id save up another thousand and get a K10 WBC spec.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B76777C667B666B120 link=1255181621/21#21 date=1255407421
    I know a number of us who can taste the difference between large conicals and flat burr grinders. Not sure what all the hating is - if I was in the market for a thousand dollar grinder - Id save up another thousand and get a K10 WBC spec.
    Yep, we can too....

    Not disagreeing with you CH, just trying to illustrate the quantum of difference that a newcomer could expect at the different echelons of grinder acquisition cost.... Im currently saving for a Kony-E 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    FWIW, for my $0.02, I have had the mini, mini-E, super jolly and kony on my bench and have worked with the Robur and Majors a fair bit. IMHO, the Robur is quite a bit better than the others, though I have not used the Robur paired with the same machines that I have used the others, so it is possible that I need to discount the espresso machine from the equation. I do feel that the differences between the mini and the super jolly tend to be exaggerated, but I also think that the Robur is significantly better than both. I have an old Kony on my bench at the moment and, based on this, I think that anyone viewing the Kony as a cheaper, smaller Robur for home would be disappointed, though the new ones might be better. I dont think that my Kony offers a significantly better cup than the Super Jolly that I had, but I didnt get a chance to run them head to head with the same coffee. Personally, I think that the best value price points for home are the mini or mini e and the robur; the super jolly is OK if you are happy to pay that much money for a bit of extra speed, but I probably wouldnt buy a Kony or a Major if it were my money.

    Cheers,
    Luca

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 31283E3C5D0 link=1255181621/23#23 date=1255435485
    I dont think that my Kony offers a significantly better cup than the Super Jolly that I had, but I didnt get a chance to run them head to head with the same coffee. *Personally, I think that the best value price points for home are the mini or mini e and the robur; the super jolly is OK if you are happy to pay that much money for a bit of extra speed, but I probably wouldnt buy a Kony or a Major if it were my money.
    That doesnt seem to jive with Chris (Talk Coffee) current experience with his new Kony-E Luca. And Chris also has a Robur-E to compare it against...

    Mal.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Can we bring seasoning into the equation? I found my Robur-e completely inconsistent in the beginning, but after 30kg of beans, Id say it was pretty spot on with each dose.

    Maybe one Kony is broken into a little? Complete speculation.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B726466070 link=1255181621/23#23 date=1255435485
    that anyone viewing the Kony as a cheaper, smaller Robur for home would be disappointed
    Hmm...dunno about that Luca. As I recall, your kony is an antique doser without auger and were talking kony-e here. The differences are smaller burrs, smaller footprint, smaller motor and thats it. Perhaps youd like to do some controlled testing on that one?

    I replaced my K10 at home with a Kony and other than 7.5 sec for a double against 4.5sec on the Robur-e at the shed with the same beans, whats in the cup is every bit as good. I am so happy that I have ordered a 2nd Kony-e as the shed demo- and I could just as easily ordered another Robur. I view the Kony-e as a smaller, cheaper Robur-e for home and I am not disappointed.

    Perhaps the differences you are referring to are more Maver v Synesso/LM *:-?

    Quote Originally Posted by 55686574736675070 link=1255181621/25#25 date=1255444606
    Can we bring seasoning into the equation? I found my Robur-e completely inconsistent in the beginning, but after 30kg of beans, Id say it was pretty spot on with each dose.

    Maybe one Kony is broken into a little? Complete speculation. *
    Yes- I found that too. The Robur is still bedding in at <500 shots. The Kony is now happy at 400 shots....

    Chris

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Going to keep socking my pennies away for the Kony-E.... 8-)

    Thanks Chris :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Also looking at the Kony-E still. Once youve got a large conical youll struggle to use another grinder. Macap M4 FS @ $600 anyone?

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    What do we think about the Titan grinder project in the US...in terms of where the big conicals were compared to a big flat burr like the SJ...I am not suggesting that you take it all as read, but it was a big and comprehensive test and the SJ often produced as good or better with some beans and of course Robur would outgun it on others....I just wonder if it can be said that for home use having a big conical is going to get you better shots every time, most of the time, or depending on the beans. Has anyone here done back to back BLIND (the mind is a strange thing) testing with say an SJ and a Robur or a big Macap flat and another big Conical or combo etc with a few different beans and the one machine and one person on the machine? I think a person who bought a high end flat burr (for not an inconsiderable outlay) and then went on to buy a very expensive (relatively speaking) Robur for example might be wanting more than anything but a decisive win to the conical :-/


    Cheers

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Gday Oz.... :)

    Im just looking at it from several unusual perspectives mate, most of which have no bearing on shot quality. Its just that Im slowly losing more dexterity and strength in my hands and arms and believe it or not, Im finding it more difficult to even manage the Doser properly, cleaning it out and what have you. So, Im just looking for a high quality Doserless unit that is quick, easy to use and clean up afterwards and essential of course, delivers excellent grind quality.

    The new Kony-E seems to deliver on all of those points (as does the Robur-E of course) and is not so huge as to be an embarrassment sitting on the bench next to the Diadema. None of this was a concern when I initially bought the Macap M4 but it seems that it is going to be over the next few years.... Just the way it goes unfortunately...

    Mal.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Gday Mal. Fair call mate. Its interesting this whole big flat to big conical thing though, especially where speed is not the primary thing.

    Cheers :)

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    ozscott, Im trying to get an Aussie Titan Grinder Project off the ground. I think a number of the grinders have changed considerably, there are a few options available in Australia that werent in the TGP, and the scoring methodology changing in the middle seemed very flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by 36232A3A362D2D590 link=1255181621/29#29 date=1255591495
    it can be said that for home use having a big conical is going to get you better shots every time, most of the time, or depending on the beans.Has anyone here done back to back BLIND (the mind is a strange thing) testing with say an SJ anda Robur or a big Macap flat and another big Conical or combo etc with a few different beans and the one machine and one person on the machine?
    I would say that in my experience, and my wifes, that the big conical grinders are able to extract more fruits/florals from the cup and provide a better overall balance and sensory experience, along with making distribution easier, reducing chanelling and increasing repeatability.

    I wanted a conical to lose to a flat. Theres no way I wanted to fork out for a conical. $2000-3500 for a grinder? Dude, but no. Unfortunately the experience on my tastebuds was repeatable, and a vast improvement.

    blind testing is quite frankly a pain in the butt and hard to do well. They sound different, they have different grind characteristics and pour characteristics, and shots dialled in for the same time will taste different based on particle distribution, dosing etc. Additionally, the optimum shot grammage may be different. Rather Id score it based on overall user experience.

    cheers,

    John.

    PS. Mal, sorry to hear youre struggling a bit.

  34. #34
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Fair enough John - its all good stuff....trouble is I dont want to see the conicals being noticeably better cause i am anal enough about my coffee to just go there!!! Arrghhh! Arrrghh......!


    Cheers

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Some good reading here! I was having a look at the grinds today from my Tranquilo and could see no obvious clumping. Its loud as all hell and takes a good ~10 seconds to grind a double shot, but I cant justify spending $2-3k on a grinder when Im already very happy with the flavours this $300 grinder is producing.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 67525F586C705C55555656330 link=1255181621/26#26 date=1255467880
    Quote Originally Posted by 6B726466070 link=1255181621/23#23 date=1255435485
    that anyone viewing the Kony as a cheaper, smaller Robur for home would be disappointed
    Hmm...dunno about that Luca. As I recall, your kony is an antique doser without auger and were talking kony-e here. The differences are smaller burrs, smaller footprint, smaller motor and thats it. Perhaps youd like to do some controlled testing on that one?

    I replaced my K10 at home with a Kony and other than 7.5 sec for a double against 4.5sec on the Robur-e at the shed with the same beans, whats in the cup is every bit as good. I am so happy that I have ordered a 2nd Kony-e as the shed demo- and I could just as easily ordered another Robur. I view the Kony-e as a smaller, cheaper Robur-e for home and I am not disappointed.

    Perhaps the differences you are referring to are more Maver v Synesso/LM *:-?

    Quote Originally Posted by 55686574736675070 link=1255181621/25#25 date=1255444606
    Can we bring seasoning into the equation? I found my Robur-e completely inconsistent in the beginning, but after 30kg of beans, Id say it was pretty spot on with each dose.

    Maybe one Kony is broken into a little? Complete speculation. *
    Yes- I found that too. The Robur is still bedding in at <500 shots. The Kony is now happy at 400 shots....

    Chris
    Likewise Chris would any similarity in shots between grinders be GS3 v Vintage Faema?

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 21393C3C293813212D227A7B4C0 link=1255181621/35#35 date=1255672339
    Likewise Chris would any similarity in shots between grinders be GS3 v Vintage Faema?
    GS3 I dont know at this stage, but Faema, yes. I had one beside the other and ran shots together. ::)

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A5F5255617D5158585B5B3E0 link=1255181621/36#36 date=1255674992
    Quote Originally Posted by 21393C3C293813212D227A7B4C0 link=1255181621/35#35 date=1255672339
    Likewise Chris would any similarity in shots between grinders be GS3 v Vintage Faema? *
    GS3 I dont know at this stage, but Faema, yes. I had one beside the other and ran shots together. *::)
    Cool Ill take your word for it.
    :) looks like Ill save some coin and go a Kony-e when upgrade to a LM
    :D

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 44696863796479740D0 link=1255181621/28#28 date=1255589667
    Macap M4 FS @ $600 anyone?
    If you are serious, let me know ;)

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 383F3E2828224B0 link=1255181621/38#38 date=1255676732
    If you are serious, let me know Wink
    Hi stucci, I am, but it may have already found a home w/ a brand new snob, so if the pending sale falls through, Ill let you know.

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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D7C76657B7E64170 link=1255181621/11#11 date=1255307299
    Your opinion may change if you try a better grinder.I noticed a big difference in the cup when going from a Lux to a Compak K3 (doser).Iím still happy with the results from the Lux but when comparing side by side, itís a different ballpark.
    Sounds like a comment from a CS without knowledge of Cunill grinders....!!!!

    Cunill is an ugly beast , noisey as hell , can be messy , can have static , nil clumping ,slow .....
    BUT it will deliver the best grind at its price point, with 60mm blades , and a strong robust motor....

    I also would like to upgrade for many reasons , but the next step up is quite large for quality improvement in the cup .






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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A7D66617A7D76120 link=1255181621/40#40 date=1256243830
    Quote Originally Posted by 7D7C76657B7E64170 link=1255181621/11#11 date=1255307299
    Your opinion may change if you try a better grinder.I noticed a big difference in the cup when going from a Lux to a Compak K3 (doser).Iím still happy with the results from the Lux but when comparing side by side, itís a different ballpark.
    Sounds like a comment from a CS *without knowledge of Cunill grinders....!!!!

    Cunill is an ugly beast , noisey as hell , can be messy , can have static , nil clumping ,slow .....
    BUT it will deliver the best grind at its price point, with 60mm blades , and a strong robust motor....

    I also would like to upgrade for many reasons , but the next step up is quite large for quality improvement in the cup .
    I tend to agree with everything youve said. I had a built-in Lux in my previous machine, a Nemox Cafe Del Opera, and the Tranquilo was streets ahead of the Lux.

    The Cunill Tranquilo is a very underrated grinder in my opinion.

  43. #43
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Hello Snobs, first post here so maybe sit down and have a relaxing cuppa before reading my question :-[

    Im looking for doserless grinder for at least $1000 - the Macap M4d specs say it is doserless but also has "Digital Programable Dose" ?

    We need it to grind only about a kilo per week to bag (probably in 225gs) and sell of coffee that we grow - would much prefer to sell whole beans.

    At this stage cant really justify going for a top of the line - maybe next year if all goes well and there is demand for ground - we could keep the Macap for the kitchen. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcomed - thanks.

  44. #44
    Senior Member Koffee_Kosmo's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 667170707B7B66140 link=1255181621/42#42 date=1256691779
    Im looking fordoserless grinder for at least $1000 - the Macap M4d specs say it is doserless but also has "Digital Programable Dose" ?
    There is one for sale in the Hardware For Sale section
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1255781239

    KK

  45. #45
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    The Macap has a manual setting, and will grind while the button is pushed.
    I get 21 grams ground in about 7 or 8 seconds so 225 gm would take about a minute and a half.

    Greg

  46. #46
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 082C252526261C082C302E2C430 link=1255181621/43#43 date=1256708385
    There is one for sale in the Hardware For Sale section
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1255781239KK
    Thanks for that but Im looking for new to get the 50% tax capital expense whatever thingo before December as we are a business.

    Quote Originally Posted by 04312624142C312E222F27430 link=1255181621/44#44 date=1256711596
    The Macap has a manual setting, and will grind while the button is pushed.
    I get 21 grams ground in about 7 or 8 seconds so 225 gm would take about a minute and a half.

    Greg
    Thanks for that as well - time doesnt really matter though I suppose the question is how many kilos can you push through a machine in this range before the burr wears out?

  47. #47
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 726564646F6F72000 link=1255181621/45#45 date=1256717015
    Thanks for that as well - time doesnt really matter though I suppose the question is how many kilos can you push through a machine in this range before the burr wears out?
    Two issues-- 1. How long do you want to stand holding the button?
    2. Kilos?--lots!--and burrs are cheap.

    Greg

  48. #48
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 72475052625A4758545951350 link=1255181621/46#46 date=1256727370
    How long do you want to stand holding the button?
    Good point - I would have thought it would have an on/off? Maybe some bluetac> :-[ Then again I would have one hand free whilst pushing the button to hold a beer...

  49. #49
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Theres also the question of how many kilos per hour it is rated at.

  50. #50
    TC
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    Re: Best doserless grinder

    Hi Reddoor,

    An M4D wont do it for you as like most digital doserless grinders right through to the Robur-e at well over $3k, its designed for a duty cycle up to about 30 seconds and then needs to be switched off. You will wreck it.

    The MC4 will do the job but I shudder to think how hot it would get and what it would do to to the coffee if you were to grind a kilo.

    For mine, if youre going to do it and are planning to retail the product, it needs to be done with a level of professionalism and to do this, you will either need to grow a longer arm, or get shorter pockets.

    Appropriate options include Climax, Eureka, DIP and Ditting amongst others. The bidding starts around $1.5k unless you can find a good 2nd hand unit.

    2mcm



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