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Thread: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

  1. #1
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    Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi All,

    After having seen so much positive feedback on this grinder i went out and bought myself one about 2 months ago. Now unsure if there is actually anything wrong with the grinder or my machine. But first some things ive noticed about the grinder. Ive had to adjust the grinder quite a bit to the point where it starts making a kind of "wrrring" sound. Anything less and the coffee looks quite granularly and has coffee husks in the grinds aswell. The place i bought it from said they set it for espresso but when i used that setting the coffee was coming out too fast. I also noticed that when i only grind in short busrts the wrring sound does not seem to happen which has got me thinking that possibly the burrs when running at higher speed do not spin true/wobble a little and cause the burrs are very close together results in the sounds im hearing. For people experienced with this grinder would what ive described be normal for this grinder or are the conical burrs blunt and that im having to adjust the grinder more than u normally would to compensate.

    Ive contacted the store several times and they just said adjust the grinder as much as u need till it comes out fine enough and that the grinder will make that noise cause the finer u grind the motor has to work harder.


    Now my other issue is that when i make espresso according to the 30 second rule, the people i make it for all say its too strong and end up usually making a latte or add some milk. The coffee doesnt have a burnt taste cause i usually flush a little water. At times i reckon it could be a tad sour (but mainly a bitter from the people drinking the coffee) but i have an un trained tongue so my analysis is probably not the best either. I have been using fresh beans as well. Things ive noticed when making a double is that when the coffee i just finished pouring, most of it looks quite foamy but then starts to settle kind of settle/fizz away with some loss in volume as well. At times i also notice like a streak of black in the coffee as its pouring. The resulting creama is usually ends up being a few millimeters thick.


    Ive tried various ways to dose, tamp and grind settings, grind coaser tamp harder, grind finer, 1/2 fill, tamp using weight of tamper, add more coffee then another light tamp using mainly weight of tamper itself. I cant over fill baskets too much other wise its diffult to insert handle into group as the shower screen probably sits a little low (its a screw in type shower screen). Im also using deeper baskets as it was pointed out that the supplied baskets are actually shallower than most. Deeper baskets have seemed to help with my initial problems somewhat in that i can now fit more coffee in the baskets which will helped slow coffee flow. Spent coffee puck shows imprint of shower screen screw when i fill baskets to the point where the group handle is more difficult to insert/lock (usually coffee puck level with the groove/lip about 2 to 3 mm from the top of the basket)

    Now im not sure of this but im also thinking that the pump is putting out too much pressure, making it more difficult to get the grind and tamp right, resulting in the strong coffee im getting. Ive been unable to actually test the group pressure and the machine does not have an adjustable over pressure. Its a 2 piece hex shaped cylinder with a fixed spring inside and a hose running to the drip tray. Ive also rang around a little and what ive been told is that the pressure the pump builds up is dependant on the grind and if the grind and tamp is correct the pump will output the correct pressure. To me this doesnt quite sound right since the pump will build up as much pressure (possibly more than the required 9 bar up to the max the pump can output) to overcome the coffee puck and trying to set up the grinder is much more difficult cause its not known how much pressure the thing is building up and whether u really actually should be adjusting it finer or coaser. My machine is a Carimali (HX type machine) Carimalina which is identical to the Nuova Simonelli Oscar.

    After 2 months now im a getting a bit frustated with the whole thing so hoping to get some help here with the whole coffee thing. Ive also rang around a couple coffee places to get some traning on my machine and grinder but havent yet found ayone in adelaide that does this.


    thanks in advance

  2. #2
    COFFEECHASER
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    I have the Iberital Challenge and I would certainly say it is a reasonably noisey grinder when it is grinding. I only grind for espresso so couldnt correctly evaluate if it is noisier compared to a coarser grind. I think it is a bit of stretch to say that the grinder was set up for an espresso grind from the shop, it needs to be set up to your machine and will require adjust between different origins and as the beans age so is not really a set and forget kind if thing. So dont lose heart, believe me sometimes I feels like you have to turn the adjuster alot to notice a difference and I think you just get used to getting close to the mark the more you use the grinder.

    I cant really comment on whether your machine is in specs as far as the noise you are going so I will leave that alone.

    As most people on here will suggest always use the double basket even if making a single shot, is easier to get consistent shots.

    Use the 30 seconds or whatever as a general rule to set up a 60ml shot for the double and than adjust the grind/tamp whatever from there to adjust the tase. You may need to pull the pin on the shot early so it doesnt blonde and that will affect the taste and may wreck what would have been a good shot.

    The advice given to me that worked when setting up my grinder was to always inspect the puck after the shot and only adjust the grind once you are satisfied that the dose is correct and consistent.

    I dont know the machine you have so cant comment about machine specific but it sounds like it may have a lower showerscreen like my expobar. I will run through how I dose mine but may not work for you. The credit for my dosing has to go to 2mcm (Unless I muck it up and than the blame is all mine ;)) and modified after doing s course with my machine in Sydney. I grind the basket so it is half full (unless you are a basket is half empty kind of person ;)) than tap the portafilter on the bench a little than grind so there is a little mountain and tap on the bench again. Than I level it with something flat than use the tamper weight. Than refill and level with flat object again, than to compensate for the lower showerscreen I use my index finger sideways and use the curve of my knuckle to remove a little bit of coffee, this seems to be enough to allow it to still slot in to the grouphead. Than I tamp.

    Hoepfully I have helped in some way and I am sure some more experienced campaigners will correct me where I am wrong and point you in the right direction.

    Dont despair I am sure you will get there and be impressing people with your coffee in no time, and most importantly impressing yourself. I am sure you made the right decision on machines. Hopefully you will find a place to give you suitable training, which is key to improving your coffee in my opinion.

    Enjoy,

    Brett

  3. #3
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    It sounds to me like you are doing the right thing. Could it be that your friends are not used to the real taste of espresso coffee? Espresso Coffee is supposed to have a very strong bitter taste to it.

    "Spent coffee puck shows imprint of shower screen screw when i fill baskets to the point where the group handle is more difficult to insert/lock (usually coffee puck level with the groove/lip about 2 to 3 mm from the top of the basket)"

    Youve got this right, Dont stress too much. I dont know your machine but I have to do the same with my gaggia, the Porta filter does need to be a bit dificult to put in place to get a good extraction.

    Go and see one of the site sponsors in Sydney and set up a course where you can take your machine and grinder. If you cannot do a course, than go and visit one of the site sponsors who has a cafe and ask for a plain espresso so you can get the idea of how it really tastes.

    I dont think the problem is you - I think it may be your friends lack of knowledge.

  4. #4
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Interesting post, Coffee_drinker. *

    First of all, I would ignore any advice which says "its pre-set for espresso". *Different types of beans, *freshness and a host of other factors affect the setting from hour to hour.

    Use the timing screw to grind about 17 grams of coffee. The machine will *probably grind half a basketful and stop. You then gently tap the portafilter on the bench without your wife looking at your indescretion, to settle the grounds, then grind a second time until it automatically stops.

    If you cant lock on the portafilter to the group, you obviously have too much coffee in there. *

    If the puck is wet after an extraction, you are underdosing. *

    The rule of thumb of around 17 grams of coffee (14 is not enough) ground such that you can still lock onto the group, and produce 60 mls in 25-35 seconds should give you a good starting point.

    Adding water to brewed coffee to adjust taste.... I wont go there. The only water that touches coffee, in my lifetime, will be water that flows through the basket.

    You are adjusting all sorts of variables to achieve a proper shot.

    Try working on just ONE at a time. *Get the dose right. *Then get the grind right. *Then the tamp (14 kilos of even pressure). Then the temperature, Then the timing.

    You dont mention what sort of a machine you have, but assuming it is an acceptable espresso machine, all the above should suit.

    Happy experimenting

    --Robusto

  5. #5
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Thanks for the input thus far. Sounds like i need more practice and making sure i get the dose and tamp more consistent then adjust the grind/shot time accordingly to taste. I did work out the litte trick of using base of the index finger curved part to level the dose so that its a slightly concave and the PF will still lock in ok.

    My machine is a Carimali (HX type machine). The model is Carimalina which is identical to the Nuova Simonelli Oscar.

    Im from adelaide and have not yet found anyone to do some training with my machine and grinder. Do any members know of anyone who does personal machine/coffee training?

    So is machine pump pressure such a big issue with regards to the coffee extraction, that is possibly more than the 9 bar depending on the factory pre-set spring tension of the over pressure valve?

    Also coffee chaser mentioned to use the double basket even when making a single. Do u still need to fill the basket as if making a double then just stop at 30mls or do you use the double basket and only fill the basket enough for just a single 30mls shot?

  6. #6
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Coffee_drinker, you use a single basket for 30 mls, and a double basket for 60 mls. Both are extracted in the same amount of time, about 30 seconds. (double baskets have more perforations than singles)

    You cant fill a double and stop at 30.

    Well, you can, but you are then making a ristretto, which may not be what you are aiming for.

    Half-filling a double basket will produce a very weak gusher.

    8-9 Bar is an ideal pressure, but chances are your technique may need more attention than the regulator.

    Forums such as this, and the internet at large, are an excellent source of learning.

    Im sure as your questions arise, we will be most happy and accommodating to answer them. Thats what were here for.

    -Robusto

  7. #7
    COFFEECHASER
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_drinker link=1166662476/0#4 date=1166690841
    Also coffee chaser mentioned to use the double basket even when making a single. Do u still need to fill the basket as if making a double then just stop at *30mls or do you use the double basket and only fill the basket enough for just a single 30mls shot?
    I mentioned this because it easier to get consistent shots with a double. You can either just let the other spout run out into your drain or an espresso glass so you can examine and taste your shot. Or use the first 30ml but than that will be more concentrated than an espresso as mentioned above. Work on consistency with your double rather than switching between a single and a double. Once you are confident with one than you may want to switch between the 2 baskets but that is your call. I dont know of too many people that bother with a single basket, but I am sure there are some who do and are happy with their results.

  8. #8
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    The single basket supplied with the Silvia is.... a basket case.

    Its a trap for the unwary noice drinker who believes a single espresso appears to be the norm.

    The novice then is beaten repeatedly by this insidious piece of pressed metal until he/she is well on the way to becoming a basket case.

    Just the slightest miscalculation in dosing or tamping and the single-laden Silvia becomes a fiedish, unforgiving, capricious woman.

    Feed her the double, and her entire churlish nature sweetens.

    Ah, women. Er? Ooops!

    I think I am straying here. Could it be I am sublimating repressed anxieties into an inanimate hunk of metal......?

    --Robusto

  9. #9
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Quote Originally Posted by coffee_drinker link=1166662476/0#4 date=1166690841
    Thanks for the input thus far. Sounds like i need more practice and making sure i get the dose and tamp more consistent then adjust the grind/shot time accordingly to taste.

    Im from adelaide and have not yet found anyone to do some training with my machine and grinder. Do any members know of anyone who does personal machine/coffee training?
    Hi CD and welcome. Im also from Adelaide (for about another week and then will be joining the evil empire in the west! :)) I believe Rio Coffee in Stepney do training, they certainly do the training for all new Cibo staff so Im sure theyd do it privately too. Can you give us a bit of a run-down on what youve got? Youve mentioned your machine, but if you can tell us what else youre using that will help us diagnose. E.g. source and age of beans, tamper, jug size, thermometer (y/n), etc, in case we can pick anything else up.

  10. #10
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Also have just seen and thought about getting an espro or easy click tamper from coffeeparts but are quite expensive. R they worth getting using?

    Hi Greg,

    This is my machine here:
    http://www.carimali.com/inglese/prodotti/prodotti.asp?id_prodotto=10

    Ah right, rios do training as well. I was at Rios last weekend to buy some more fresh coffee. The blends i bought was the Crema and Royal which are now 1 week old from when I bought them but only 1 bag has been opened. They smell really nice. My impression of the shop was more like a contenintal deli (most likely cause it was a saturday morning and busy so no offense i hope) and no one around really to sought of help/guide u what blends to recommend/buy. There was also another guy making coffee for a couple but he was pretty busy too. So i just grabbed some coffee off the shelf and left.

    What i have, the machine from the link above, the iberital challenge grinder (this one doesn’t have the automatic timer, just a push and hold switch that the PF pushes when u want to fill. A solid metal convex tamp which is not snug fitting, probably about 1 mm clearance all round (i was expecting a more snug fitting one but the guy who sold it to me said the size was ok). The handle is a standard size 58mm and now using more deeper baskets than the ones that came with the machine. Have a cheapy thermometer for milk frothing. Steam wand has a 4 hole steam tip, probably too many holes and heats milk really fast when steaming a small amount for just 1 drink, not sure how or what micro foam looks like but manage to make froth.


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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Ive not used either so cant comment on those specifically. Luca uses an espro and quite likes it, others have used them and dont like them. The main factor is having the tamper fit the basket properly (talking tenths of a millimetre tolerance not just generic 58mm). If either of those do that then Im sure theyll be fine if the styles are your preference, otherwise youre welcome to inspect the ones I sell to see if theyre to your taste.

  12. #12
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    I have had my challenge for a few months now.

    I am also a very green newbie to the quality coffee scene so I can only relate my experiences so you can evaluate them for what they are.

    When you say that it makes a "wrrring" sound, I am assuming that the sound changes from a "grinding" sound to a higher pitched "wrrring" sound. At the same time is there any coffee grounds being ejected from the chute? I suspect not.

    I think what is happening is that the coffee being ground is not being ejected from the chute into the portafilter and is "clumping" (coming out in lumps instead of a continuous stream). This results in ground coffee collecting around the grinder burrs inside the grinder internals thus preventing the whole beans entering the grinding zone.

    I suspect but cannot confirm that this is caused mainly by humidity making the grounds stick together (clump). I may well be wrong.

    What I do now is when I hold the portafilter to the switch on the grinder, I give the grinder body and whole bean reservoir regular taps (light but significant in force) with my free hand to dislodge the built up deposits of grounds within the machine. Percussive encouragement if you wish.

    The grinder alternates between the grinding sound and the wrrring sound but gives a reasonably steady stream of coffee.

    To support my theory, I have noticed a marked tendency to clumping (and therefore requiring more vigourous application of percussive encouragement) on the more humid or rainy (very rare in Sydney) days.

    This works for me, I hope it works for you.

    cheers

    jeff

  13. #13
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Hello CD, welcome! Good to see another CS from Adelaide!

    From your post, it seems to me that you are in the most confusing part of
    the never ending search for coffee perfection. *Just keep grinding away, things
    will become clear (sort of) (eventually). :)

    You have some pretty good equipment, a very sound basis for excellent
    results. Its hard to tell from words alone, but my feeling is that there
    is nothing wrong with your grinder or machine, its just that it takes
    quite a while to come to terms with all the parameters involved in making
    good coffee. This can be disorienting starting from scratch, but
    perserverance is rewarded. Ive had similar feelings a couple of times,
    but after four months or so of refining a technique, Im now getting
    reasonable consistency, and also making improvements.

    I did a lot of reading, finding and practicing techniques. Searching
    through CS for posts on grinding, tamping, what to look for in a pour etc
    yields a lot of useful advice.

    A couple of especially useful resources have been
    *http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-skills.html
    and John Doyles excellent, well written, and comprehensive book "Barista
    Techniques". *This sets out, with great clarity, pretty much
    everything that an aspiring barista in Australia needs to know. *I have no
    intention of ever being a barista, but I bought the book for its advice on
    technique -- extraction, texturing, definitions of coffee drinks etc.

    When I got my grinder (not a Challenge) back newly serviced,
    they had set it to a suitable adjustment for espresso. *Nonetheless, Ive
    needed to experiment with numerous grind settings, and have ended up using
    settings quite different from where it started.

    I got through a lot of crema and espresso blends in figuring things
    out. They will usually give you a roasting date; try to use beans about
    a week old, will help with consistency.

    Id suggest trying esspressos at different places to get reference points
    on the tastes you can get. For example, its possible to sample a range
    of SOs and blends at Simply Coffee in Kent Town (e.g. try the Yirgacheffe and
    Tiger Mountain). Well prepared coffee, without bitterness and good origin
    characteristics showing. Cibo is also good, and much to my surprise,
    recently at Illy in Rundle St I got a superbly sweet quite excellent
    espresso.

    Ill PM a couple of suggestions for training in Adelaide.

    Best of luck!

  14. #14
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Hi c_d,

    Just took a quick skim over this thread. I have to agree with what you already seem to have worked out - the quickest, easiest and best way to improve your results would be to get someone who knows what they are doing to take a look at your stuff and help you out. I know that Chris from Talk Coffee has played "flying doctor" to the coffeesnobs over in Tassie. Perhaps if there is enough interest he would make a trip to Adelaide in the new year? Failing that, check your PMs.

    Before getting training, though, if I were you I would go back to basics. I have been fortunate enough to have had a string of barista gigs where I keep on getting to break in new equipment. For a uni student, its nice to vicariously play with my employers toys! Whether Im setting up a La Marzocco, a Maver or a Silvia, I always start off the same way. The shotglasses and the stopwatches come out. I make a bunch of shots with the double basket using my uber-standard dose: grind more than you need, rap on the bench a few times to settle, then strike off the excess with a straight-edged tool. I try to get as close as possible to 30mL in 30 seconds, then tweak from there. With your grinder, the important thing will be to not be afraid to turn the adjustment knob a lot to get to where you want to be. I usually turn it five or so times before trying the new grind setting. With all grinders, Ill usually purge a bunch of coffee after changing settings, just to be sure that the grind is consistent. This process wastes a fair bit of coffee, but if you have done it, at least you know that youre on the right track.

    Regarding the Espro tamper, I work for Veneziano, who are the Australian importers and I was the guy that pushed for the tamper to be imported. Because of this vested interest, Id rather not be the one to wax lyrical about it, but Im more than happy to answer any questions that you might have. I will, however, respond to two things that have been said:

    Also have just seen and thought about getting an espro or easy click tamper from coffeeparts but are quite expensive.
    All that I will say is that if you are considering the "easytamp," you should actually try it next to an espro.

    Luca uses an espro and quite likes it, others have used them and dont like them.
    To be fair, Im not the only person that likes them!

    Personally, I use the coffeelab and espro tampers most of the time. The espro always comes out when Im dialling in a new blend or whathaveyou. The coffeelab takes over later in the day. Its nice to be spoilt for choice ;P

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    So far...

    Continuing to practise the basics of the dose and tamp technique described above using double baskets as recommended. Puck has a light screw imprint but a little water seems to sit on top of puck which can be seen when u take PF out right away but quickly soaks into coffee grinds leaving it dry and knocks out pretty well clean too. I cant dose too much otherwise the PF is difficult to lock in and sometimes wont lock in.

    Coffee pours generally look ok with crema that can hold 1 teaspoon of raw sugar for a little, not too dark but probably still a bit too bitter to my taste needing 2 sugars to sweeten and take the edge off it (even after a considerable flush). Could also be the beans (opened about 1 week ago). A few friends of mine have a nespresso machine. Coffee pour is caramel color and comes out quite good and not too bitter.

    Wont have time for training this month, till i get a chance ill just keep practising. Hopefully when i get some training on my machine and grinder that they will be able to make sure its all working ok as well and make any tweaks if need be.

    So for the time being, ill just keep plugging away till at which time i can get some hands on training and improve.

    Cheers
    C_D

  16. #16
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    nespresso....i laugh at that

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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Well ill probably be shot down for saying this but putting in a capsule, lock in handle and push button is a lot more simpler than, fill beans, grind, fill basket half, settle, fill till a small mound level, light tamp, fill again and level, 15kg tamp, lock in PF and push brew switch.

    U also dont have to worry about putting in the right dose, did i tamp hard enough, even distribution, imprints of the shower screen in the puck, grind settings, temperature etc etc. Anyways i guess im just a bit frustrated with the coffee thing at the moment and shoudnt be that hard to make an consistent espresso which is not too bitter.

  18. #18
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Yes, thats all ok CD....

    So long as quality in the cup is not your main discerning criterion. For me, it is always about the quality and if it means going to a bit more trouble to achieve that, well, so be it. As you have no doubt recognised by now, for most of us "coffeesnobs" it is the quality of the brew that is important, not so much the process and if you are satisfied with quality benchmarks that differ from the majority, well thats fine too but will not receive an awful lot of support from the die-hards amongst us ;),

    Mal.

  19. #19
    COFFEECHASER
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    How fresh are the capsules?

    If they are not fresh you will never get the same quality in the cup as fresh roasted and ground coffee. It can be frustrating when you are getting the hang of the grinding and dosing thing but is oh so worth it once you get consistent with it. For me it is half the fun of trying to get it right but once you do I doubt you would turn back. It will make you selective of where you go out for coffee at.

    I have never done the capsule thing but couldnt imagine they would ever be as fresh as what I can get at home with a grinder.

  20. #20
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Ive tasted nespresso a couple of times and it is much better than instant- about the same as preground supermarket coffee when first opened.

    Fresh commercially roasted beans- freshly ground - leaves it for dead as does home roasted beans by an even greater margin.......

    But if you want a drinkable, not great coffee with minimum fuss and mess- they are quite good... (but not for me Im afraid ;))

  21. #21
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    In terms of freshness, it wouldnt be as fresh as freshly ground coffee.

    In terms of quality in the cup, i dont think ive got that good yet so hopefully with more practice and eventually some training it will all be worth it.


  22. #22
    COFFEECHASER
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    With training and practice you would surpass the quality I am sure. I have only had my machine for a little over 2 months and am stoked with the coffee I am producing. I think the pride of making your own coffee (manually) makes it taste even better.

    Hang in there and definately look into some courses. I did a domestic course where I could take my own machine and made such a huge difference straight away.

  23. #23
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    Re: Iberital Challenge Grinding help

    Ive only had my machine a few weeks longer than Coffeechaser and although I can see that some of my shots are far from perfect and I know theres room for improvement, most if not all of them have been better than what I used to get at my local café and definitely better than instant by a country mile.

    My sister-in-law makes time for a coffee these days, even when only stopping in to drop something off on her way to work.
    Both my next door neighbours have been raving to their husbands about how great I am (my coffee I mean ;)).

    Thats my proof that my coffees better than instant.

    Its worth the effort!



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