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Thread: Importing a grinder

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    Importing a grinder

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi All,
    I have wanted a new grinder for a while. I currently have a Rocky and am thinking about a Mazzer Mini E. With the exchange rate pretty good at the moment, I waas thinking that importing could be a good way to go price wise at the moment.

    For example, I think I could get a Mini E here for around $850 all up. It would be from Europe so I think apart from the plug, it should be ok.

    Now who wants to talk me out of this plan? Thoughts?

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Looked at international warranty?

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D78777C2C2D2A28190 link=1285047567/0#0 date=1285047567
    Now who wants to talk me out of this plan?
    If it was as easy as you think wed all be doing it.

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 04010E0555545351600 link=1285047567/0#0 date=1285047567
    I think I could get a Mini E here for around $850 all up.
    Apart from whats already been said, does that include customs duty and GST?

    Speaking of customs, from personal experience, hopefully they wont decide to open it up then hand it over to you in pieces. ;D


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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 44414E4515141311200 link=1285047567/0#0 date=1285047567
    Now who wants to talk me out of this plan? Thoughts?
    All good and well if you dont require warranty and never need to get it serviced. Most manufacturers have strict agreements in place with their distributors that goods are not to be sold out of their home country.

    We dont service grey import stuff and I am not inclined to supply parts for them either.

    Chris

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    I would never want to take the gamble that you seem prepared to take "dane5431"...

    The view I have always taken is its much better for the Distributor/Retailer to take all the risks involved and then after your purchase, you are protected by a number of Statutory and Civil Regulations. In the case of buying something like this from one of our highly regarded Site Sponsors, you get a whole lot more into the bargain too.

    For me its a no-brainer, buy from a reputable retailer in Oz and reap all the benefits of so doing.... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Agree with others here. Any supposed savings will immediately evaporate if you encounter problems. Be they warranty, customs or not getting what you ordered problems.

    Too risky for my taste. Id still buy locally.

    Also - Are you sure you are comparing like for like? I have seen a non-sponsor selling a Black version somewhat cheaper than the Silver. Less popular I gather.

    Brett.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 17363D3D3A20530 link=1285047567/3#3 date=1285050379
    does that include customs duty and GST?
    As it will be under the $1000 "current" threshold it wont be subject to duty or GST and you wont need to fill out a customs dec etc.

    BUT

    Based on the few grinders I have had shipped just around Australia they are heavy lumps of very dead weight and whatever anyone can do to damage them in transit will be done. So if you finish up deciding to direct import add insurance for a start and be aware that what you may be buying may not be specd to the same standards as what is sold locally plus lack of backup guarantee etc.

    For mine I would be looking locally for the little you might save ;)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    All,
    Thanks for the input.

    I did include the import costs into the original figure, and have been doing some minor importing (non coffee related) for a while now and have not ever had any trouble from customs, inspections, etc...

    However, I think the best point here is that the saving is only maybe $200-300 tops, and a warranty is a very valuable thing.

    Also, shipping damage is definately on the cards with a grinder as pointed out already.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    To give an alternate opinion, I would say if you have done you research (i.e. *accounted for shipping, duties, gst etc, considered spare parts pricing and availability, relative fragility, servicing and reliability of the machine etc) and you still think its worth it then why not.

    Once could discuss back & forth about the relative merits of supporting local businesses (and indeed sponsors of this very www site), vs a global market place, and every person would have a differing opinion, however ultimately it will boil down to your personal financial circumstances and comfort level with the risk taken on when purchasing from overseas.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    I hear all of these horror stories about importing machinery and have to say its not been my experience.
    Ive imported dozens of articles from the US and a few from Europe over the past 20 years or so and am so far ahead financially its not funny, and have never had a package damaged or lost.
    As long as your the sort of person that dots Is and crosses Ts, are able to sum people up by communicating with them, know exactly what you want right down to the last detail and are prepared to wait until the exchange rate is in Your favour (like now $US0.9462) then go for it, you have nothing to lose.
    As far as claims are concerned a lot of equipment is offered with an international warranty, costs a few bucks more.
    Aussie Customs and Aqis are excellent organisations to deal with, Ive always found them extremely helpful, have your documentation in order and dont play games with them, no dramas, know the rules.
    If the saving is significant then go for it, (do your sums) if your only going to save a few bucks its probably not worth the effort.
    And of course needless to say that Espresso machines and grinders are not on the list of things I would contemplate importing.
    All in all I find dealing with American sellers to be a very positive experience. ;)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 7448554E444552474F44200 link=1285047567/2#2 date=1285048625
    If it was as easy as you think wed all be doing it.
    Its not difficult TG, I buy most of my clothing from the US at a fraction of the Aussie price.
    Buy from reputable retailers who are prepared to ship internationally, they know what they are doing and do it well. ;)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 003C352D38590 link=1285047567/10#10 date=1285061583
    exchange rate is in Your favour (like now $US0.9462)
    Try getting that from a bank!
    Take off 2.5% and add $20-$25 TT fee.
    BANKS!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3B3C38373F352030373E590 link=1285047567/7#7 date=1285057966
    As it will be under the $1000 "current" threshold
    Careful, most courier companies have a $450 threshold, post is under $1000.

    Curiously, no one mentioned voltage?
    The EU works on 220v and often, motors are wound to suit (not sure if the Mazzer is) so the grinder might run 10% faster, 10% hotter (give or take). It wont blow-up but it will work harder.

    The other "gotcha" with importing unapproved appliances is that you can find yourself in a pickle if you have to make an insurance claim. Loss adjusters just love to find a grey import in the middle of a fire.

    Just another couple of things to throw into the mix when weighing it up. ...but as others said, if after taking it all into account and you think the savings are a good trade-off then go for it.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 576B627A6F0E0 link=1285047567/11#11 date=1285062003
    Quote Originally Posted by 7448554E444552474F44200 link=1285047567/2#2 date=1285048625
    If it was as easy as you think wed all be doing it. *
    Its not difficult TG, I buy most of my clothing from the US at a fraction of the Aussie price.
    Buy from reputable retailers who are prepared to ship internationally, they know what they are doing and do it well. ;)
    I wouldnt buy coffee machines or grinders from overseas either, but I do buy many books from the US at far cheaper prices than they sell for here. For example, one cooking book I was after was $100 locally, but in the US was $26, and this was for an Australian book!! *:o

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 200F0518610 link=1285047567/12#12 date=1285073324
    Try getting that from a bank!
    Take off 2.5% and add $20-$25 TT fee.
    BANKS!
    Doncha luv em. >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by 200F0518610 link=1285047567/12#12 date=1285073324
    Curiously, no one mentioned voltage?
    Didnt mention it, but is the reason I indicated I would not import a machine or grinder.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 072C2929450 link=1285047567/13#13 date=1285074583
    Quote Originally Posted by 576B627A6F0E0 link=1285047567/11#11 date=1285062003
    Quote Originally Posted by 7448554E444552474F44200 link=1285047567/2#2 date=1285048625
    If it was as easy as you think wed all be doing it. *
    Its not difficult TG, I buy most of my clothing from the US at a fraction of the Aussie price.
    Buy from reputable retailers who are prepared to ship internationally, they know what they are doing and do it well. ;)
    I wouldnt buy coffee machines or grinders from overseas either, but I do buy many books from the US at far cheaper prices than they sell for here. For example, one cooking book I was after was $100 locally, but in the US was $26, and this was for an Australian book!! *:o
    I regularly buy books CDs and DVDs from Amazon US.
    Have you tried The Book Depository in the UK, their prices can be even better than Amazon and they dont charge for shipping. ;)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 1E222B3326470 link=1285047567/11#11 date=1285062003
    Quote Originally Posted by 7448554E444552474F44200 link=1285047567/2#2 date=1285048625
    If it was as easy as you think wed all be doing it. *
    Its not difficult TG, I buy most of my clothing from the US at a fraction of the Aussie price.
    Buy from reputable retailers who are prepared to ship internationally, they know what they are doing and do it well. ;)
    I was talking about the grinder the OP raised the subject on.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1E222B3326470 link=1285047567/10#10 date=1285061583
    And of course needless to say that Espresso machines and grinders are not on the list of things I would contemplate importing.
    There you go; you agree with me. ;)
    A grinder is not the same as a T-shirt.




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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6E524F545E5F485D555E3A0 link=1285047567/16#16 date=1285075811
    A grinder is not the same as a T-shirt.
    What?!
    You mean Ive been doing it wrong the whole time?
    :(
    ;D

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 665A534B5E3F0 link=1285047567/15#15 date=1285075290
    Have you tried The Book Depository in the UK, their prices can be even better than Amazon and they dont charge for shipping.
    No, havent used them. Thanks for the tip. :)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Hi there... time for my first post on CS.

    I think there is one important observation that has been missed in this conversation thus far... pretty much every single grinder, espresso machine and roaster currently available in Australia was imported by someone here from somewhere else at some stage of the supplier/wholesaler/retailer chain. *That means that 230-240v and 50hz versions of these machines are available for direct import if you are willing to do a bit of research and then take the international commerce plunge. Duties and GST only come into the equation when broaching the $1000 AUD threshold and damage in transit can easily be covered via insurance and by using a reputable courier service or freight forwarder. Of course there is always a price to pay... as in the cost of repairs/servicing down the road if things go bad. And, yes, a good relationship with a local supplier is the nicer way to go but if you can save hundreds, if not thousands, by going it on your own then dont be shy... after all, that is how your local suppliers got their toys in the first place. Who knows... if your new play thing impresses you enough, and if you have the beginnings of a good relationship with your newfound overseas supplier then perhaps you too can start your own business and eventually become one of the site sponsors on CS as well down the road.

    Food for thought? * * :-?

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Re Voltages the Mazzzer Super Jolly parts list shows different part numbers for the stator and contactor depending on voltage and herz, 220-240V50HZ and 220V/60HZ, dunno if this lil tidbit is applicable to what your considering, just thought Id throw it in the mix.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    If importing or traveling overseas try one of the Wizard GE Mastercards no forex fees on any cash withdrawals or purchases overseas. To avoid interest just pay the card into credit before buying or traveling. It saves a good amount of cash when traveling or buying presents over the internet for friends and family in the UK. PS I have no relation to the above found out about it on a frequent flyers forums website, seems its the only card that has this in Australia. Feel free to remove the above if it is deemed to breech the forum rules.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 437C7B7C6174666670150 link=1285047567/19#19 date=1285095620
    That means that 230-240v and 50hz versions of these machines are available for direct import if you are willing to do a bit of research and then take the international commerce plunge.
    True but the OP would not likely get a look in.

    I cant imagine a European grinder manufacturer wanting to sell one grinder to one Aussie buyer.

    It looked to me from the first post that they were considering buying retail not wholesale.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C302D363C3D2A3F373C580 link=1285047567/2#2 date=1285048625
    If it was as easy as you think wed all be doing it.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Rather than retyping all the guff easier for you to read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity
    Find the area about EU harmonization.

    European Union is now nominally 230 V 10% at 50 Hz
    Uk Supplies 240V
    Europe Supplies 220V
    Equipment sold in europe must support 230 V 10% at 50hz
    So all electrical appliances that bear has European CE will work in a range 220V-240v @ 50hz from my understanding.

    Australian power is 230 V +10% -6% similar to the UK. We still supply at 240v as this is within the specs.

    The EU found it easier to say that all electrical goods should support this range rather than telling countries to replace old electricty generators with new ones.

    To say the least all the electrical goods that my GF bought over from the UK when she moved here have worked fine to date.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 58474D5C414F434B5C2E0 link=1285047567/20#20 date=1285103948
    Re Voltages the Mazzzer Super Jolly parts list shows different part numbers for the stator and contactor depending on voltage and herz, 220-240V50HZ and 220V/60HZ, dunno if this lil tidbit is applicable to what your considering, just thought Id throw it in the mix.
    220-240V 50hz would be the european version.
    220v 60hz would be the US version think this is for commerical two phase power?

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    220v 60hz would be the US version think this is for commerical two phase power?
    In the parts list seperate stators are listed for
    220V/60HZ single phase
    &
    220V/60HZ three phase

  27. #27
    A_M
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Many issues to consider..

    1: After sales support
    2: legal issues of if it is approved or not
    3: Has it been tested in Australia
    4: Voltage = Ongoing issue fo years yet... Australia are moving to an ISO standard of 220 but at present: range between 220 and 250 +/- a bit (depends where you are)
    5: 50 HZ in Australia - This is the critical one for many motors etc

    Different if an electronic black box uses DC to drive motors etc- As they will in general, take a range of AC in... And develop a stable DC internally.

    Motors and other items that are driven directly from AC usually have also been designed around a set frequency and 50 to 60 is a difference or grater than 10% and trust me: some things just will not work and other may - But will not perform as expected and have shortened life.

    Make all teh assumptions you want but they are just that - Assumptions.

    220V - 240V at 50HZ is a base line - Any thing else is trouble.

    PS. There are a lot more other little issues involved but that is detail ;)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C737A786F507C737C7A78707873691D0 link=1285047567/26#26 date=1285196468
    1: After sales support
    2: legal issues of if it is approved or not
    3: Has it been tested in Australia
    4: Voltage = Ongoing issue fo years yet... Australia are moving to an ISO standard of 220 but at present: range between220 and 250 +/- a bit (depends where you are)
    5:50 HZ in Australia - This is the critical one for many motors etc *
    I think 1-3 are really important.
    Regarding 4-5, I thought it was interesting that my Rocky (Australiain retail bought) has a sticker on the bottom that says 230V 50/60Hz. So it seems for at least the Rocky there is no real distinction between 230 or 240v, 50 or 60Hz. Im sure this is not true for all grinders.

  29. #29
    tek
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Go for it, Why not bring in 2 and sell one? I know youll get hit with Customs tax but just do what I do with car parts from the states and send 2 parcels with seperate invoices instead of 1 that way theres no duty to be paid as both parcels are under $1k, If Mazzer will sell you 2 grinders in Aus spec then go for it, the money you save will easily cover warranty repairs.

  30. #30
    tek
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    BTW Australian Voltage can vary anywhere from 215-250 depending where you are

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Well, I thought I would be brave an tell you that I did order a grinder from Europe (before it has arrived). I wanted the Mini E Type B in Polished finish, and it seemed good. It should be a 230V 50Hz version.

    After being warned by all, it would only be fair for me to let you know if it works out, so expect a post from me next week when/if it arrives in one peice...gulp.... he he

  32. #32
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Congrats,

    With the dollar currently hitting 98.31 against the USD I think you picked a fine time to become a direct importer.

    Looking forward to hearing how your adventure turns out.

    On a somewhat similar note... I am in the process of directly importing a sample roaster from Turkey... its on the plane as I write this... and will post info and pics on the Roasters post as soon as I can. If anyone wants to discuss this further PM me.

    Cheers

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Looking forward to seeing how it went being shipped and how it faired on the journey.

    Just out of interest, how often do people actually get their grinders serviced since Chris from talk coffee is saying he wont service grey imports? Apart from replacing burrs, which can usually be done yourself, what other components can be serviced without simply replacing the broken parts, ie. the motor?

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    @ Swarve Rarely. Mazzers are built like tanks and for domestic use you probably will never need to get it serviced other than adding some lube on the threads and changing out burrs.

    @ Dane Congrats on the purchase. May you have much enjoyment from your new investment!

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 4E4B444F1F1E191B2A0 link=1285047567/30#30 date=1286509061
    After being warned by all, it would only be fair for me to let you know if it works out, so expect a post from me next week when/if it arrives in one peice
    Bump.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B677A616B6A7D68606B0F0 link=1285047567/34#34 date=1287448553
    Bump.
    Hey... you bumped me just as I was lifting it onto the bench. It arrived today in pretty good condition. Just packaged in the Mazzer box, but the Mazzer foam took a bit of damage (cracked bits in the box) but the grinder is 100% fine.

    The model is a Mini E Polished 220-240V 50Hz.

    Obviously there is no real warranty to speak of, but purchased all in for $842 AUD. There was no customs or GST (dont know if this was just lucky) and the cost includes the shipping and credit card fee for international transaction.

    With no real warranty to stand on, I would not recommend this for others, please do not read this post as a recommendation in any way.

  37. #37
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 292C232878797E7C4D0 link=1285047567/35#35 date=1287471026
    Quote Originally Posted by 5B677A616B6A7D68606B0F0 link=1285047567/34#34 date=1287448553
    Bump.
    Hey... you bumped me just as I was lifting it onto the bench. It arrived today in pretty good condition. Just packaged in the Mazzer box, but the Mazzer foam took a bit of damage (cracked bits in the box) but the grinder is 100% fine.

    The model is a Mini E Polished 220-240V 50Hz.

    Obviously there is no real warranty to speak of, but purchased all in for $842 AUD. There was no customs or GST (dont know if this was just lucky) and the cost includes the shipping and credit card fee for international transaction.

    With no real warranty to stand on, I would not recommend this for others, please do not read this post as a recommendation in any way.
    Well done Dane, pleased to hear it arrived safely, lets have a report when you have it up and running. ;)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Nice....sometimes you get lucky with customs. If youre bringing in a shirtload then obviously theyll catch ya.

  39. #39
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6042445F585244370 link=1285047567/37#37 date=1287491960
    Nice....sometimes you get lucky with customs. If youre bringing in a shirtload then obviously theyll catch ya.
    Duty and/or GST are only collected on imported goods through the post where the value of the goods is above A$1000.
    http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/importinggoodsbypostfaq.pdf
    Ive imported a lot of articles from the US over the past 20 years without problem, electronic, photographic, books, DVDs CDs and clothing, even with items over the $1000 cut off, provided you are aware of and comply with Aust customs regulations you will find the Aussie Customs people extremely helpful, its when you try to outwit them by falsifying invoices, documents or customs declarations that they will come down on you like a ton of bricks.
    Of course commercial shipments are a different kettle of fish all together.
    So, if the value is under $1000 Aust and with the A$ at current levels why not? Ive got 2 packages on the way right now.
    Caveat emptor. ;)

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 06030C0757565153620 link=1285047567/35#35 date=1287471026
    . Just packaged in the Mazzer box, but the Mazzer foam took a bit of damage (cracked bits in the box) but the grinder is 100% fine.
    good to hear it arrived :)

    was there an insurance option against damage with the seller (or mail company)

    out of interest.....

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Good news it arrived not bashed up.

    Before anyone else runs off buying O/S take a detour and have a look at this pricing http://www.espressoitalia.com.au/sho...Australia+wide and if you add GST and duty to danes landed price you get $972. It makes some of the local pricing look not to bad when you consider the downsides. Local non sponsor has them at $990 too.

  42. #42
    TC
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Ok, so this represents a saving of circa $100 for all of that hassle and no Australian warranty..

    FWIW, I have never seen a Mazzer with cracked supporting foam and that grinder must have taken one hell of a drop. Its a testament to Mazzer build and packaging that it survived...this time....

    Regardless, I still dont like the mini-e, not even if we could buy and sell them at the same price as a mini-manual ::)

  43. #43
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 4075787F4B577B72727171140 link=1285047567/41#41 date=1287526572
    Ok, so this represents a saving of circa $100 for all of that hassle and no Australian warranty..
    It is definately not worth trading an Australian warranty for $100.
    The big drawcard for me was to get the poilished model. If I was buying black I would have got it here. The saving on the polished is $350, assuming the polished variety was available here for $1200.

  44. #44
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 76434E497D614D44444747220 link=1285047567/41#41 date=1287526572
    Regardless, I still dont like the mini-e, not even if we could buy and sell them at the same price as a mini-manual
    Was that really necessary???

    Sounds like a case of sour grapes... errrr... beans to me

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 447B7C7B6673616177120 link=1285047567/43#43 date=1287531444
    Sounds like a case of sour grapes... errrr... beans to me
    Maybe not http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1255770741/13 Most I know use it as a manual grinder anyway due to dosing inconsistency with the timer. This is the thing that is stopping me buying a K10E until I have seen one and played with one in the flesh.

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    Re: Importing a grinder

    I wouldnt buy the K10E. Too expensive and not worth it. Ill stick to the WBC K10 and electronic timer I built for $100 in 2007!

  47. #47
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E292D222A203525222B4C0 link=1285047567/44#44 date=1287531971
    This is the thing that is stopping me buying a K10E until I have seen one and played with one in the flesh. *
    Quote Originally Posted by 1B393F2423293F4C0 link=1285047567/45#45 date=1287592225
    I wouldnt buy the K10E. Too expensive and not worth it. Ill stick to the WBC K10 and electronic timer I built for $100 in 2007! *
    That may be a discussion best continued over in the K10 Fresh discussion thread I reckon bf and Dave ;)

    9Bar has a white one which has been released from captiivity and Dave has had a play with it. Certainly looks really well finished but $$$ wise and in terms of height, its up there and its a big price jump from the K10WBC to the Fresh. Unusual and proprietory hopper design as well and no short ones coming to Australia. I believe that one of the big US mobs has modified some hoppers to make short ones for those who dont need to store 1.5kg beans. Read more big $$$ :o

  48. #48
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 3631353A32382D3D3A33540 link=1285047567/40#40 date=1287524499
    and if you add GST and duty to danes landed price you get $972

    You could add a whole heap of irrevelent stuff and get an even higher price, but t doesnt make sense to.

    You dont pay duty or GST on goods under $1000.

    The duty component only applies to the value of the goods but the GST component applies to the landed value of the goods which includes shipping and duty.

    So you might not pay duty but could end up paying GST depending on the shipping costs.

  49. #49
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A6C7B706A6D75771E0 link=1285047567/47#47 date=1287626906
    You could add a whole heap of irrevelent stuff and get an even higher price, but t doesnt make sense to.
    The $1000 limit is currently under goverment review and as part of the whining that has gone on here and in the other couple of threads about how we are getting ripped off by the Mercedes driving Mansion Dwelling coffee machine moguls it is relevant to put it into context that the price differential is not that large.

    As I have said before do whatever you like it is your $$ but do it being fully aware of the pitfalls and of the limited cost savings. Most get lucky from O/S but I know of plenty who have not being across a lot of industries.

  50. #50
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Re: Importing a grinder

    Quote Originally Posted by 696E6A656D677262656C0B0 link=1285047567/48#48 date=1287715536
    it is relevant to put it into context that the price differential is not that large.

    The landed price he paid was $842, adding GST and duty to it isnt relevant or correct under the current rules.

    Quoting his cost at $972 and saying there wasnt much of a saving is misleading. Quoting a local seller of a different model at $990 is also misleading.

    In this case the savings were in the order of $350 (according to Dane)
    , that is worth the risk to some people.



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