Results 1 to 28 of 28

Thread: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I also have one of these which I purchased from Amanti via eBay. It runs at 880 rpm. Does anyone have any idea where it fits in compared to the 1000 and 1400 rpm versions mentioned here? It is a good grinder and I am very happy with it.
    Ted

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    471

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    if it has the foam around the grinder just below the adjustment ring, i think that means its the silenzio model. I also had an amanti one off ebay although i dont know what speed it ran at. Certainly spat the coffee out much faster than a k6 though.

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Mischa, Mine certainly has the foam as you describe and runs very quietly so it probably is a Silenzio even though it is not labelled as such (as far as I can see though the writing on the label is partly worn off from cleaning). I suspect Compak added the foam at some stage in the development of their grinders and perhaps later decided to market them as Silenzios. Do not believe it would add much to the cost so why are not all their units now Silenzios?

    One of the reasons I bought my eBay unit from Amanti was because it was a 880 rpm unit on the belief that a slower reving unit would heat up the coffee less. It has a 2003 manufacturing date. Have not been able to discover anything else about it but am curious why Compak would make 1400, 1000 and 880 rpm versions? Can anyone help?

    I reckon why the K8 spits out ground coffee quicker than the K6 is because of the bigger burrs.

    Ted

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Now we are out of the 4 sale thread* :)

    Most common AC motors run at a nominal synchronous speeds based on the frequency of the supply (50 Hertz in Oz).
    2 pole 2900 RPM
    4 pole 1440 RPM
    6 pole 960 RPM
    8 pole 740 RPM

    The 880 RPM is likely to be a 6 pole motor while the one in the original 4 sale thread is a 4 pole. Basically it goes to quieter running and generally cooler grinding for a better result. As a general rule motors with more poles to get the same power out tended to be larger and hence more expensive is why we dont all have 6 or 8 pole grinders.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    471

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    another thing to remember is that bigger burrs means that the top and bottom burrs are travelling faster past each other than with smaller burrs.

  6. #6
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,862

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 07233929222B4A0 link=1298928438/4#4 date=1299144582
    another thing to remember is that bigger burrs means that the top and bottom burrs are travelling faster past each other than with smaller burrs.
    Thats absolutely right Mischa.... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Its the Mean Peripheral Velocity that is important not the RPM so much (with Planar Burrs Sets anyway).

    The other characteristic relating to the number of poles in an Induction Motor, is that as these increase so too does the output torque; so long as everything else remains the same. The main reason high number multi-pole induction motors are more expensive than 2 or 4 Pole, is the winding is more complex and in the higher number of poles, the Stator Iron needs to be physically bigger in order to accommodate the usually higher numbers of shorter pitch coils. Theyre also more difficult to wind in small motor sizes and take longer to complete.

    So, quite a few factors add up to a more expensive motor and is one of the main reasons they are relatively uncommon and in even quite large commercial conical grinders, a manufacturer will defer to a standard motor design coupled to a reduction gearbox. It achieves the same end result but at less cost....

    Mal.

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Thanks all for the discussion on speed and number of poles etc. Most informative.

    I find it curious that Compak would sell a range of K8 grinders with differing number of poles in the motors. Are these grinders typically available to buyers/ importers with a range of options in regard to motors etc similar to cars where you can choose for example from a 6 Cyl or a V8. I would have thought to keep costs down it would be better to use a single motor configuration. I suppose it would be more logical if the design changed over time such as Compak increasing the number of poles in a later batch to give them a marketing edge over their competitors.

    Do for example Mazzer Jollys come in a number of different speeds?

    Ted


  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 1835313D305C0 link=1298928438/5#5 date=1299159473
    large commercial conical grinders, a manufacturer will defer to a standard motor design coupled to a reduction gearbox. It achieves the same end result but at less cost.
    Mazzer Robur, Compak K10, Versalab, DRM Cimbali (one version with Flat grinder burrs) are a few of the reduction drive burrsets on the larger end of the market. There are also some consumer/prosumer ones too where the case size is kept down by the use of DC motors Vario or one of the Isomacs i think (bound to be others too)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3D292F282839385C0 link=1298928438/6#6 date=1299189753
    Mazzer Jollys come in a number of different speeds
    Not that i have ever seen. one of my drms is a 4 pole direct drive and the whole grinder, motor and the resulting beans are noticeably warmer when you start to crunch out the shots in a hurry, partly why I did ask about motor speed in the 4 sale. In the case of a home user never going to be a problem.

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Yes reduction gear boxes and DC motors are other ways of getting speed reduction.

    What I was really asking is why do Compak make a specific model (eg K8) with different speeds? Also do others such as Mazzer also do it?

    Ted

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Like a lot of specialised manufacturers in the world if you ask, take enough of them and pay your bills they will make them ;-)

    Compak as a company has tended to make changes and tweak products on the fly as needed so the Silenzio is more an evolution of the old instead of a totally new product or made at someones request.

    Mazzer seem to have stuck to 4 pole with all their flat burrs and gearbox reduction for their conical grinders. Never seen a Royal but it seems to be a 6 pole with i am assuming flat burrs being to odd one out?

  11. #11
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Beanflying, Thanks.

    Perhaps Amanti imported a special batch of 880 rpm K8s for some reason to lease out to coffee shops.

    Regards
    Ted

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    471

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 24303631312021450 link=1298928438/8#8 date=1299202362
    Yes reduction gear boxes and DC motors are other ways of getting speed reduction.

    What I was really asking is why do Compak make a specific model (eg K8) with different speeds?* Also do others such as Mazzer also do it?*

    Ted

    Or maybe its just a case of chinese whispers regarding the speeds of these k8s....

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    471

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Anyway some of the large bag/deli grinders run at 2800ish RPM, and their motors are thermally separated from the burrs. So i dont think its just a case of RPM alone, more a case of how the whole grinder is designed.

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Mischa wrote "Or maybe its just a case of chinese whispers regarding the speeds of these k8s...."

    Mischa, Had a closer look at my K8. It also has a manufacturers label under the bottom which reads "RO9CB K8 880 RPM 21 Jun 2007" . I would suggest it is a fact rather than chinese whispers that Compak K8 grinders come with a number of different speeds.

    "Anyway some of the large bag/deli grinders run at 2800ish RPM, and their motors are thermally separated from the burrs. So i dont think its just a case of RPM alone, more a case of how the whole grinder is designed."

    I suppose it would be a positive for large bag/deli grinders to run at 2800ish RPM so as to speed up the process as quick as possible in that environment. Not really applicable in a home .

    I would have thought the grinding process itself generates heat which is why I would prefer a lower speed grinder. In the case of the large deli grinders I am not sure the insulation you refer to is to stop motor heat adding to the grind heat or to stop grind heat further heating up the motor.

    Ted

  15. #15
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,862

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 495D5B5C5C4D4C280 link=1298928438/13#13 date=1299445507
    manufacturers label under the bottom which reads "RO9CB* *K8* 880 RPM 21 Jun 2007" .
    Thats a strange speed for a 50Hz motor though Ted. Maybe that is for a 60Hz supply with an 8-Pole motor which would make more sense. Actual speed then, for running at 50Hz, would be about 690-710 rpm depending on Rotor design (more Iron less slip and vice versa)...

    I just cant imagine a company would produce a commercial rated grinder for 50Hz operation with a rated speed of 880 rpm, which would have to be a 6-Pole Motor running at a Rotor Slip of 12% - That would be very high indeed and create lots of heat within the Rotor. A more acceptable amount of Rotor Slip would be no more than 5% at most. Thats why I think the nameplate rated speed may be for a 60Hz supply.

    Could be wrong of course but this would imply that the motor design of this Compak Grinder is very ordinary indeed..... :(

    Mal.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    It is an odd one alright but I have seen them in the flesh and thats the number on the case, just to confuse the lower speed ones here is a Compak table of speeds ;)

    edit : In industrial motors on 50Hz it is faily common to see 920 RPM on 6 pole (BCB locally made used to use them for work) below that speed not sure ???


  17. #17
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,862

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 696E6A656D677262656C0B0 link=1298928438/15#15 date=1299486545
    edit : In industrial motors on 50Hz it is faily common to see 920 RPM on 6 pole (BCB locally made used to use them for work) below that speed not sure ???
    As I mentioned above though bean... the larger the "slip" number is away from synch. speed for a given motor spec, this usually means that less Iron has been used in the Rotor to save money. This then equates into specs that result in shorter duty cycle for a given output rating, due to the extra heat generated in the Rotor as a result of increased slip.

    In the end, you pays your money and take your chances - As with everything... ;)

    Cheers mate,
    Mal.

  18. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Greenbean, Mal Thanks for the info.

    Even more confused now. The table describes a 230V 50Hz version running at 1300 rpm and a 240v 50 Hz version at 870 rpm. Presumably as Bean mentioned earlier these two versions must have a different number of poles. As the voltage ratings of these sort of motors are usually nominal as the voltage can vary between say 230 - 250V it seems curious that Compak would differentiate them as such. Or are they the same motor with the differences in speed and Pin/Pout simply dependent on the voltage? Strange. Would have thought a higher voltage would result in a higher rpm.

    Regards
    Ted

  19. #19
    A_M
    A_M is offline
    Guest
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    6,381

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 52464047475657330 link=1298928438/17#17 date=1299537829
    Greenbean, Mal Thanks for the info.*

    Even more confused now.* The table describes a 230V 50Hz version running at 1300 rpm and a 240v 50 Hz version at 870 rpm.* Presumably as Bean mentioned earlier these two versions must have a different number of poles.* As the voltage ratings of these sort of motors are usually nominal as the voltage can vary between say 230 - 250V it seems curious that Compak would differentiate them as such. Or are they the same motor with the differences in speed and Pin/Pout simply dependent on the voltage?* Strange.* Would have thought a higher voltage would result in a higher rpm.

    Regards
    Ted
    Please review and re read the post higher up.* AC motors can be complicated but in Simple terms it depends on the supply in HZ and number of poles in the motor winding.*

    Voltage is not the primary factor other than in defining what Power source to be used..*

  20. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Angermanagement, perhaps I did not express myself properly.

    I do appreciate the useful lesson in elec eng from beanflying which included the variables of number of poles and Hz.

    What I was referring to in my last post was the big differences between the 230V/50Hz & 240V/50Hz models described by Compak in the table posted.

    Now it is possible the 240V/50Hz model is a 6 pole 960 RPM unit with the slip referred to by Mal or an 8 pole 740 rpm unit inaccurately described while the 230V/50Hz unit is a 4 pole described as 1400 rpm. Is the one described as 1000 rpm also a 6 pole?

    I find it weird that Compak would describe them as per the table if that were the case. I have contacted Compak in Spain and will post here if they respond.

    Regards
    Ted

  21. #21
    A_M
    A_M is offline
    Guest
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    6,381

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 4E5A5C5B5B4A4B2F0 link=1298928438/19#19 date=1299549839
    What I was referring to in my last post was the big differences between the 230V/50Hz & 240V/50Hz models described by Compak in the table posted.
    Arrr As in why:

    1: 230V at 440W 1300 rpm and

    2: 240V at 260 w 1400 rpm


    Because that will have different specs as to teh stator and other factors effecting performance.

    As Mal stated these motors can be quite complicated in their design and the materials used; while appearing on the surface as "Simple".

    As to BFs brief lesson... He is correct but it is brief and while I did 6 months full time on motors and generators etc it still gets me muddled at times. Wait untill you work on miniature 3 phase low voltage units used for medical stuff.

    It comes back to is it an Interest OR will it help one do the work.

    In many cases it is Black Box theory and such is life. That is x goes in and Y comes out. The box is often proprietary / unable to be worked on and teh maths and circuits are complicated, so any time spent is wasted.

    As to motors, unless your a re-winder then accept that they are made differently and that will effect their performance.

    x = Voltage in and Y = rpm Simple ;) (Torque has not been covered :D )

    AM



  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Port Fairy
    Posts
    2,993

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    The key is not to stress to much, the pole/speed thing was designed to be a rough and ready guide as getting into 3rd and 4th year electric motor theory is well beyond anything needed from a users point of view. Accept that 13-1400 rpm is 4 pole and 850-960 rpm is 6 pole and your all sorted ;-) Best to limit what technicalities are worth going to on a coffee forum i think.

    AM you want to know about low voltage ac motors thats my bag from my Model plane and heli thing also micropump drives back in my past.

  23. #23
    A_M
    A_M is offline
    Guest
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    6,381

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Quote Originally Posted by 25222629212B3E2E2920470 link=1298928438/21#21 date=1299557106
    AM you want to know about low voltage ac motors thats my bag from my Model plane and heli thing also micropump drives back in my past.
    Noooooooooo* *They fail = we replace* ;)* *(but neat to have fun with)

    Any repair would need to go back through a full validation to manufactures specs including all documentation and then identified as Refurb / Repaired.

    Most tenders and Contracts require NEW parts only to be fitted. Thus even if we could, we are not permitted to.* Risk management* ;D

    With Grinders and other non critical motors.

    If there is an OC in a winding, then it may be Suitable for the Rewinder* ;)* (Costs are the factor* Vs Replace with new)
    Start Cap fail = Replace*
    Bearings = Replace*
    Lamination* OR things that look like a stator issue* (These can also generate noise,* heat and loss of torque etc) = BIN
    Motor Mounts = Replace

    Remember harmonics can be an issue (load and no load) and some systems use almost the same motor but a different casing and mounts etc to manage the harmonics.

    S0 What Makes a Compak Silenzio.... = The design, method of manufacture AND what it is being compared to* ;D

    Note: Love the missing spec* "db"* (But even then; it depends on how the measurement is taken and under what conditions).

  24. #24
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Not sure if Im missing something here, but do we really care?

    If the grinder works as intended, great. If not, its a dud- so you repair it or ditch it. If you want to pay extra, you buy a silencio.

    On the other hand, Mazzers and Macaps tend to be somewhat quieter than the equivalent standard Compaks, so there are always options.

    Chris

  25. #25
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Guys

    Thanks Appreciated the discussion on Compak grinder motors.

    I must admit when I first got the chance to look inside my grinder I was impressed with the size of the motor. Not much smaller than a washing machine motor. And they make 3 phase cafe grinders!!

    The only thing I am still surprised about is how a company like Compak that exports quality products all over the world would make a range of grinders with different motors and call them all K8 without any additional tag to the name such as k8 - 880 etc. Also they seem to be a bit inconsistent with the table rating them at 870 rpm and the nameplate 880 rpm. I suppose it does not really matter as the RPM is clearly maked on the plate but it does strike one as a bit artisanal.

    In spite of all that I really like our K8 and it is indeed a Silenzio in that it is indeed very quiet unlike many you hear in cafes.

    Regards
    Ted

  26. #26
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,862

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    As bean, AM and Chris say above, it doesnt really matter about the theory that much (my queries were directed mainly at bean so sorry for getting the thread OT), if the Grinder does what it was designed to do and does it well then thats ALL that matters really, everything else is just fluff and probably only of interest to geeks like me.

    Regarding the variability of motor specs for what are essentially identical grinders... Probably comes down to from where Compak source their motors. More than likely, theyre supplied in batches after some kind of tender process and as a result, not all are exactly the same but fall within an acceptable field of tolerance dictated by Compak. So if its acceptable for Compak, the grinders will perform as intended - Thats probably all that is necessary to know when all is said and done.

    Enjoy your K8 Ted, it will last you a lifetime.... 8-)

    Mal.

  27. #27
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Did some digging around on the Compak website and found this parts diagram for the K8 Silenzio in the download area :

    http://www.compak.es/docs/osp/K8%20Silenzio%20Telesc.pdf

    It backs up Beanflyings suggestion of specific versions with different motors.

    They list 5 different motors for the K8;
    K00126 - 110V
    k00129 - 220V 60 Hz
    K00129 - 230V
    K00540 - 240V
    K00124 - 380V (presumably 3 phase).

    The K00129 is presumably a 4 pole and the K00540 a 6 pole.

    Regards
    Ted

  28. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    20

    Re: What Makes a Compak Silenzio....

    Got a reply to my query from Compak Spain which explains that the 880 rpm K8 (nominally 870 rpm) was a special 6 pole version made for the Australian NZ market. They now make a 4 pole 1300 rpm unit.

    Here is what I was sent:

    Hi Ted, this is Montse from Compak.

    First of all , thanks for having a compak as a grinder of choice.

    The specific configuration of our motor each model is developed by an external consultory company with expert engineers working together with the manufacturer. The analysis which ends to the final Compak motor configuration, would probably be the answer you are looking for.

    What I can tell you is characteristics each of those K8 motors you’ve seen around in a Compak equipment.

    Grinders built for Australia and New Zealand: 240V-50Hz - 870 rpm - 6P.
    Standard European (Capable to perform correctly with Australian power supply): 230V-50Hz – 1350 rpm – 4P.
    Special 3 phase: 380V50Hz – 920 rpm – 6P.

    In 2010, we changed all motors to one, capable to be used any tension between 220-240 and 50-60 (all except 110V):
    220-240V – 50-60 Hz – 4 P, theoric rpm’s: 1300 rpm (50Hz), 1500 rpm (60Hz).

    Let me know if there is something else we can assist you with,

    Best Regards

    Montse Ibern



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 31st October 2011, 10:31 PM
  2. 2004 Compak K8 Silenzio cant grind finely!
    By timmyc in forum Grinders
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 14th September 2011, 03:00 PM
  3. Compak K6 Silenzio
    By julesinoz2010 in forum Grinders
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 15th February 2011, 07:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •