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Thread: How important is the grinder?

  1. #1
    Senior Member ArtW's Avatar
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    How important is the grinder?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I'm wondering how much difference the grinder really makes. I know from reading on this and other sites that the general consensus seems to be that the grinder is more important than the espresso machine however I'm wondering how far this goes? I am starting my journey to upgrade my trusty Silvia and Sunbeam but have a budget that means I have to make a compromise on either the grinder or the espresso machine. I'm not after specific buying advice (yet) as I want to have a play with all my short list machines but I'm after opinions on the criticality of the grinder. To help, here are a couple of illustrative (and controversial?) permutations that cost similar amounts:
    a) Giotto Rocket / Mini Vivaldi / Minore and Compak K3 Push
    b) Lelit PL60T and Mazzer Super Jolly
    c) Breville Dual Boiler and Mazzer Major

    I'm interested primarily in taste in the cup, also to a lesser extent ease of use and dependability but not throughput as all these machines have more capacity than I need. Is there a % of budget that is ideal to spend on the grinder? In the examples above, the % is roughly a) 15% b) 40% c) 60%

  2. #2
    Senior Member David8's Avatar
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    My next upgrade will probably be a Giotto (or similar) to go with my K3T, so I'm biased to (a). I think that's the best choice. The Compak is a fantastic grinder, I think the more expensive grinders will produce little difference in the cup but will grind faster. Also, I'm assuming you priced doser models for the Mazzer's, but this will affect your choice.

  3. #3
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    Welcome to CS/

    To have a "good grinder" is very important, but I think in home use that statement gets distorted out of all proportion.

    To have a cheap end domestic grinder costing less than say around $150.00 I think, doesnt cut it. You have to specify a high end home use grinder, or a small end commercial (semi commercial) grinder. In our market this doesnt start until say $200.00 (eg sunbeam em480 type...a "better end domestic grinder"...), and from there you can take a nice step through whatever is inbetween, to some kind of small end commercial (semi commercial) grinder such as macap m4, mazzer mini, compak K3 and others...). For me, in "regular type" home use, anything more than that is overkill especially where most of our market is drinking milks.

    That said I believe it is important to match the machine to the grinder (or vice versa), and I dont believe in matching say for example a silvia, with a super jolly. I would consider this to be a complete disparity in budget and size/capacity/. Also.....can anyone really tell the difference between a coffee made on the silvia (for example) and a mini mazzer, K3 or m4, and the same coffee on the same silvia made with a super jolly or major? As you say in a round about way, much of this stuff is about capacity not quality and over a range of grinders, the main difference will be capacity, where the quality is already excellent. However in terms of matching the equipment well, the opposite is also true eg I wouldnt think that placing a semi commercial machine costing over $2000.0, with a $200.00 better end domestic grinder is a "good match" even if the quality of the resulting coffee is good...

    The rest, is often enough about clients specifying what their trust network tells them is "the pinnacle", to buy and take home to make 4 coffes a day 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening. So, some may even spend a couple of thousand dollars on something like for example a compak K10, put it with some kind of semi commercial machine, and they are happy with their purchase. If they can justify the budget spend, and are happy, all is good. Have they tried to compare if they could have told the difference in perceived quality between the $2000 grinder and a $500.00 grinder? Probably not. And if the client could perceive the difference, does it mean that one grinder is "better" than the nother, or just different? Only the individual can answer that for themselves given their particular circumstances and the type of coffee they mostly drink.

    There are atleast a couple of threads in the grinder section, where clients say they are extremely happy with the quality from grinders in the 2 to 3 hundred dollar class and in one thread, that one of them results in coffee of a quality that matches coffee made with with a mazzer min grinder (using identical beans and machine) and of course the Mazzer Mini grinder costs over double the budget of the other (Baratza Preciso) There is no reason to disbelieve these comments from clients that are very serious about their coffee and happen to own both grinders so are qualified to make the comparison, but do note that after the "taste test" is done the grinders tested are totally different in all other ways especially in their capacity to deliver.

    So.....decide what you may be wanting to upgrade to machine wise, and choose a suitable grinder that will "match" the machine really well, suit your budget, the look you want (important in domestic kitchens as you have to live with it long term), and get your lady's approval (to put it all in her kitchen)!

    HTH,

    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor

    PS my own sales section can help fit you up with equipment if you wish (contact@cosmorexcoffee.com.au) and we have some great machines as well, and a Melbourne agent for good and local service.
    Last edited by Fresh_Coffee; 8th January 2013 at 10:42 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtW View Post
    I'm wondering how much difference the grinder really makes. I know from reading on this and other sites that the general consensus seems to be that the grinder is more important than the espresso machine however I'm wondering how far this goes? I am starting my journey to upgrade my trusty Silvia and Sunbeam but have a budget that means I have to make a compromise on either the grinder or the espresso machine. I'm not after specific buying advice (yet) as I want to have a play with all my short list machines but I'm after opinions on the criticality of the grinder. To help, here are a couple of illustrative (and controversial?) permutations that cost similar amounts:
    a) Giotto Rocket / Mini Vivaldi / Minore and Compak K3 Push
    b) Lelit PL60T and Mazzer Super Jolly
    c) Breville Dual Boiler and Mazzer Major

    I'm interested primarily in taste in the cup, also to a lesser extent ease of use and dependability but not throughput as all these machines have more capacity than I need. Is there a % of budget that is ideal to spend on the grinder? In the examples above, the % is roughly a) 15% b) 40% c) 60%
    I'll leave the specific recommendations to those with experience of across all these models (I've got a K3 Touch with a Diadema which does the trick for me). I'm not sure that thinking in %ges will be too helpful, but FWIW I'd suggest that once you are in the range of the K3 and above, the percentage spent on the grinder becomes more important as the proportion of milk-based coffees decreases. To my palate, much harder to tell the difference in a latte (again assuming that we are talking about k3 and above).
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  5. #5
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    Yes I would say, that once you reach a certain price point and go up from there, the difference in perceived quality between the grinders (for a "regular domestic" milk coffee drinker) is much much smaller ie...a client may spend a great deal of money above a certain point, but depending on the individual, may not perceive any significant difference in the coffee quality for the large hoik in dollars.

    When alls said and done, i think it will be advantageous for ArtW to seek advice from an experienced trader rather than try to mix and match various pieces of equipment from reading.
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  6. #6
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    As much as I'd love to answer your question with a simple price percentage I just don't think it's that simple. You really need to do research on all the equipment you like and that is potentially in your budget. Although often it is true that the more you pay the better results you'll get, you're much wiser to find out the absolute best you can get for your budget and you might be surprised by the results. For example I had a budget of $1500-$2000 dollars. Now if i'd spent a couple of weeks reading coffee snobs forums i would start to think you need to buy a $1600 e61 group DB/HX machine and $600(already over budget) grinder like your compaks, macap, mini m, Vario etc. But I found after months of exploring including other forums I new I could get top notch results by restoring a used Olympia cremina ~$1400 and a OE Pharos hand grinder $300 which is comparable to results to some commercial grinders. In other words don't get too wrapped up in cost and grinder/machine cost ratio. I think your grinder will really help bring out nuances in your coffee so it's worth trying to get something nice - do some research on the Vario it's been compared to the super jolly but at around $500 you could then get your Vivaldi or ever better a Strega! Or londinium 1! Get a lever man! Ok I went off track there a bit. Hope I've hoped in some strange round about way.

  7. #7
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    Yes, but too much reading often causes confusion, insecurity, and except in the case of genuine "coffee heads" that will experiment and get involved in the "experience", directs clients to buy equipment they probably wouldnt otherwise have bought, didnt need, that they will never use to its fullest potential.....(quick and dirty example, people buying dual boiler PID control machines then never use the PID controller for the purpose intended and leave it on the same setting forever....may as well have bought a good HX machine, except for the "insecurity" that causes lest they bought the "wrong" equipment where "wrong" is to buy something that isnt the fad of the month in the sites). In terms of grinders, the example would be where people are led to buy large cafe size grinders built for 10 kilos a day plus, to make 2 cups per sitting, twice a day, and where the difference in the quality in the cup between one of them and a more appropriate (for home use) sized / priced grinder would have been marginal at best if the client can tell the difference or is only drinking blacks, and nil (difference discernible) where the client is predominantly a social milk drinker.

    A further and more specific example of what a lot of reading all of this does, is to look at the original topical question, where "permutations" b) and c) specify Mazzer Super Jolly and Major grinders. Its only my opinion, but the only thing they offer over a smaller and of course less expensive Mazzer Mini, is capacity for volume delivery. Is there really any difference in the cup for the extra spend?

    And of course, who defines ".....the absolute best you can get for your budget...." What is the definition of "best" in what context for which individual. The forums are full of anonymous people with the "experience of one" but who are well read, telling other anonymous people who are less well read, that something is better for them than something else. What does that mean?

    Seriously, the best course of action is to talk to an experienced professional trader that specialises in the field. Just do *a bit* of reading first to get some idea of what the trader will want to discuss with you, in trying get the "right fit" of equipment for you. The idea is to deal with that kind of trader (one that is trying to work out what is the best fit for you).


    Edit and Declaring commercial interest here:
    I would like to suggest to ArtW, that a really good home use system for a very reasonable price with great performance will be:
    Any of the range of semi commercial BFC / Diadema Junior Or Unico Splendor HX machines, and a Compak K3 grinder, Or a Macap M2 or M4 grinder.
    And we may have one only BFC Junior EXTRA dual boiler PID machine left from the Christmas sales.
    We have larger sized grinders available if it is felt they will be of benefit to you.

    HTH

    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor
    Last edited by Fresh_Coffee; 10th January 2013 at 09:54 AM.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member ArtW's Avatar
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    Interesting points. I think there is a lot of information out there that does push you to spend more and more if taken at face value. Things like recommendations that you get a Super Jolly rather than a Mini. However, I don't take what I read at face value, especially when there is so much contradicting information. Without doing blind testing with a number of tasters it can be fairly subjective. I know I've made some changes to my coffee making routine on the basis of advice from experienced baristas (eg. preparing the milk prior to the espresso on the single boiler) and I think the taste might be better but I'm really not sure, it could well be a placebo effect. I wonder if a bigger, heavier, faster grinder might also in some cases lead to an impression of better taste in the cup that would be difficult to subjectively demonstrate.

    Atillio, I will be speaking to an experienced trader once I have the $85,000+ that I need - no I'm not setting up a cafe :-( rather the new machine is the bribe for a new kitchen and laundry for Mrs W. However I also believe in doing as much research as possible. Similarly to buying a car or camera (though much more important), once I go into the dealer, I want to already know as much as I can. Yes, it can be confusing, but I would prefer to investigate and raise any concerns or limitations with the dealer, understand these or have them disproven (hopefully by demonstration) and then make my purchase as informed as possible. Plus its a fun process.

  9. #9
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    I recently switched from using an EM0480 to a Wega mini-instant 5.8 (rebadged Compak K3T). The main difference I notice is the consistency and quality of the grind.

    The Sunbeam seemed to "drift" in grind consistency when on the same setting. The conclusion I came to was that grinds were collecting unseen just after exiting the grind chamber causing a restriction. This meant grinds stayed in the grind chamber longer than neccessary and were "reprocessed" in part causing particle size inconsistency I guess. The other thing I noticed in our few month old EM0480 was that there was a bit of wobble with the bottom burr when held and moved side to side by hand. I can't see how this is a good thing when chasing grind consistency.

    Visually, the grinds from the Wega appeared a consistent size with no sign of residual chaff. The Sunbeam always seemed to have a few chaff flakes that were slightly larger than the coffee grinds. In the cup there is noticably more consistency in flavor with the Wega grinds. Infinite adjustment also is a huge advantage in fine tuning.


    My advice is upgrade your grinder before the Silvia. One option is to look at a Compak K3 push rather than the touch. The timed function on the touch is fairly useless if you switch beans frequently and even if you don't, the push would be much more user friendly and cheaper to boot. Chris at Talk Coffee had the Compak K3P (push) for $450 I believe.

  10. #10
    Doppio Ristretto è
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee View Post
    Yes, but too much reading often causes confusion, insecurity, and except in the case of genuine "coffee heads" that will experiment and get involved in the "experience", directs clients to buy equipment they probably wouldnt otherwise have bought, didnt need, that they will never use to its fullest potential....

    <snip>

    A further and more specific example of what a lot of reading all of this does, is to look at the original topical question, where "permutations" b) and c) specify Mazzer Super Jolly and Major grinders. Its only my opinion, but the only thing they offer over a smaller and of course less expensive Mazzer Mini, is capacity for volume delivery. Is there really any difference in the cup for the extra spend?

    Seriously, the best course of action is to talk to an experienced professional trader that specialises in the field. Just do *a bit* of reading first to get some idea of what the trader will want to discuss with you, in trying get the "right fit" of equipment for you. The idea is to deal with that kind of trader (one that is trying to work out what is the best fit for you).

    ...

    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor


    I am about to upgrade from my 0480 which I must say, runs quite well. like the 6910 I had for 6.5 years until the group catches wore away too much.

    I know a lot of people bagged the sunbeam, but I never had any quality related issues with either the machine or the grinder, and my parents & sister also now have 6910's as a result.

    Sister bought the new Breville grinder and apparently is it fantastic for their style of use, however I'm (honestly) reluctant to buy another Breville or actually any domestic brand after having quality issues with a breville machine years ago.

    So the question I have for Attilio is this: what grinder would you recommend to go with my ECM raff 2grp? It will be making low volume (about 4 cups per day per person (2 ppl weekdays) and up to about 30- on a w/e day (friends / family etc - the 'drop-ins as we like to call them) for the people who seem to gravitate to my house for the coffee & chit-chat.


    While I am non-milk, my partner is a skim / soy drinker and the more frequent 'drop-ins' are mostly full cream (but I sometimes cheat the porky ones with a good quality skim - they can't tell the difference anyway heheheh)

    So for me the beans are usually costa-rican or colombian S.O. from my supplier, who does a medium roast and airfreights them down to me (old friend who owns a large commercial roasting brand in brisbane).

    Problem is, I can't discuss coffee grinders with a guy who is really well educated in coffee and would only buy the bugatti veyron version of the coffee grinder, when he could get away with the A-klasse mercedes.

    I think I am somewhere in between. I'd like a big mazzer to sit next to the machine, but I think it would be wasted $$$, and yet the breville and k3 does absolutely nothing for me. I don't like the aesthetics, and yes, they are important to me as much as performance.

    Am I asking too much?

    There are a lot of 'branded' machines out there too. Are they any good? I mean all we seem to talk about here are mazzers and macaps with the odd other thrown in.

    What about these 'branded' ones? - the gaggias, bezzeras, la pavs etc…. are any of them up to the task? or are they just really average rebranded machines with low quality control and really finicky unreliable adjustments which are ever changing?

    I've had a bit of experience with having to change the grind on the fly - weather and the beans seem to require this, even with my 0480. But what I am looking for honestly, is a machine that will not fail to deliver quality, precision grind, and look stylish next to the ECM on the bench.

    I am asking too much, aren't I??

  11. #11
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    May I utter a little heresy? Before I do so, I'll admit that I'm using a Silvia with fresh home-(Behmor) roasted KJM blend with beans from Andy. My coffee tastes to me as good as just about any I've had from a professional.

    Here's the heresy - I'm grinding with a DeLonghi KG100, internally modified to grind more finely as soon as I got the Silvia, as it simply wasn't up to it unmodified, and further adjusted as the conical burrs wear down. It's now been making 3-4 double shot coffees daily for 6 years, and I have had no particular urge to upgrade it.

    I'm not writing particularly to plug the relatively unworthy KG100, a machine unsuitable from the factory for quality espresso, and costing, as I recall, ~$100, but rather to state that quality coffee appears not to be quite so grinder-dependent as some would have you believe. When the KG100 finally dies, or wears to the limit of adjustability, I'll be getting a Compak K3.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresh_Coffee View Post
    There are atleast a couple of threads in the grinder section, where clients say they are extremely happy with the quality from grinders in the 2 to 3 hundred dollar class and in one thread, that one of them results in coffee of a quality that matches coffee made with with a mazzer min grinder (using identical beans and machine) and of course the Mazzer Mini grinder costs over double the budget of the other (Baratza Preciso) There is no reason to disbelieve these comments from clients that are very serious about their coffee and happen to own both grinders so are qualified to make the comparison, but do note that after the "taste test" is done the grinders tested are totally different in all other ways especially in their capacity to deliver.
    Since throughput isn't a concern for domestic use (grinders), I think it comes down to price, quality, footprint and lifespan (which is a result of spares availability, IMO).

    The last is where I came to see what you meant when you talked about the difference (in an earlier post, please corret me if it wasn't you) the difference between "appliance" grinders and commercial or light commercial grinders.

    I purchased a Baratza Preciso from Five Senses, which came with a minor fault; two of the three plastic retaining pins holding the black rail marked "MICROadjust" were broken, causing it to not be held securely.

    I gave them a call asking if they'd be able to provide a replacement rail that I would install myself (a $2 part, I'd imagine) and although their attitude was fantastic, what it came down to was that they consider Baratzas replaceable items rather than repairable ones and as such, can't provide spares for them.

    Considering the PITA it would be for both them and I to replace the grinder over a cosmetic defect that can be dodgied up with a bit of glue, not to mention that I consider it wasteful, I decided to glue it and live with it.

    I'm still happy with my choice as the grind is excellent and I'm leaving for the US later this year, but I would have gone the light-commercial route had it been a long-term investment simply because if it breaks, I can get parts and fix it; they're designed to be taken apart, serviced and put back together.

    It's the same as the difference between my Breville Cafe Roma and my Gaggia Classic - the screws in the Classic all enter metal threaded holes that will last forever, whereas the Breville relies on holes in plastic pillars that will strip within half a dozen uses or if slightly overtightened.

  13. #13
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    I have a sunbeam 480 at home and a super jolly at work.

    I can taste the difference.

    I still make better coffee at home than a lot of places that sell coffee.

    Most of the time there is some sort of scale of diminishing returns in that if you spend twice as much yo8u dont double the performance.

    Commercial grinders probably are expensive because they are made to grind lots of coffee 350+ days per year (however I am not an engineer).

    How robust you need to have a machine that is likely to average less than 50 coffees a week Assuming personal use for 1-2 people) I dont know.

    How important is the money is to you again I don't know.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragunov21 View Post
    Considering the PITA it would be for both them and I to replace the grinder over a cosmetic defect that can be dodgied up with a bit of glue, not to mention that I consider it wasteful, I decided to glue it and live with it.
    I'm still happy with my choice as the grind is excellent and I'm leaving for the US later this year, but I would have gone the light-commercial route had it been a long-term investment simply because if it breaks, I can get parts and fix it; they're designed to be taken apart, serviced and put back together.
    thanks for this - it's essentially crossed the baratza preciso off my list. i wouldn't be happy with having to 'dodge up' something i'd spent $330 for, or where the importer would rather replace (and make me pay postage) rather than sending out spares.

    i don't know what you mean by 'their attitude was fantastic' - it sounds pretty awful to me.

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...a-preciso.html says that parts are available - has anyone actually tried getting parts?

  15. #15
    Senior Member Dragunov21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hildy View Post
    thanks for this - it's essentially crossed the baratza preciso off my list. i wouldn't be happy with having to 'dodge up' something i'd spent $330 for, or where the importer would rather replace (and make me pay postage) rather than sending out spares.

    i don't know what you mean by 'their attitude was fantastic' - it sounds pretty awful to me.

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...a-preciso.html says that parts are available - has anyone actually tried getting parts?
    When I say their attitude was fantastic, I mean that they seemed prepared to rectify the issue; offered to send a new one and have the old one picked up (presumably not at my expense). It was my choice to let the issue drop as I considered it a waste. They're the sole importer of Baratza gear as far as I know and are able to supply the Preciso for $350, express couriered, when it sells for $300 online in the US. That's excellent, as far as I'm concerned.

    I'll be contacting Baratza directly to see what the go is about parts.

    As far as the recommendation against the Preciso goes, I'll be clear - if your grinder is a long term investment and you'd like it to be the last grinder you'll need to buy, and size isn't hugely important to you, then (from the mouths of various retailers, not my own experience) it may behoove you to save up a little longer and look at a commercial/semi-commercial grinder that is designed/sold more as machine than appliance. That's all I'm saying, though by the sounds of it you may fall into that group.

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    Hi,

    I just upgraded from a Sunbeam 0480 to Eureka. Only had it a couple of days so can't say too much.
    So far I am astounded at the difference it has made to the coffee.
    I thought it would be much the same, but not so.
    Besides being tons easier to use, the new grinder affects the taste, the speed of extraction, the colour of the extraction, the ease of doing art.
    The Eureka has an auto doser so that takes much of the guessing out of measuring the dose. this could be part of the reason for improved taste.
    The main problem I had with the Sunbeam was that a lot of grinds remain in the machine so rather than having stale coffee I would brush out and clean the machine after each grind. So rather than waste half the grind I would grind enough for about 10 cups (a few days) then measure them out with a scoop. In short I didn't grind freshly each time and didn't get a consistent dose.
    So now grinding fresh each time as there is no residue in the Eureka.
    The other odd thing is that the Silvia is usually slow to start the pour, but increases in speed towards the end.
    Now it is just the opposite. It seems to gush out to begin with, then slows markedly towards the end.

    The crema is much better looking and that seems to affect the ease of doing art, so much easier to get a nice pattern.
    We all noticed the improved taste and don't regard ourselves as expert tasters.

    Anyway that has been my experience for what it is worth.

  17. #17
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    Thinking about how the extraction has improved over the 0480, it has to be down to consistant size. The 0480 was probably not designed to produce the fine grains the Sylvia needs, and when you use it at those fine settings the grain sizes are probably all over the shop.
    With the 0480, I found that there is a fine line between having the grind fine enough, that it extracts slowly enough to produce a good crema, and having it too fine, so it takes 20 seconds to start 50-60 seconds to complete.
    This makes sense if there is a mixture of grain sizes, it just gets clogged up with fine powder if you try to push the limit. It also produces a muddy puck that takes a long time to drain, which is exactly what you would expect.

    A conical grinder, as it is relying on gravity to remove the grinds. When set very fine, the oil from the beans is likely to inhibit the grains from falling out, and they will get caught up and ground down to powder.

    In contrast, the Eureka grains are consistent (no powder) allowing the water to flow through the grains and extract cleanly, even at a very fine setting. The Eureka puck looks nice and dry (well drained).

    I would strongly recommend upgrading to a new grinder if you are using something like the Sylvia.



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