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Thread: Macap M4D - bad choice as a home grinder?

  1. #1
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    Macap M4D - bad choice as a home grinder?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I'm currently looking to upgrade to an electronic dosing grinder, and was set on the M4D until i started reading forum reviews. Two specific issues have me worried about using it as a low volume (3-4 shots a day) home grinder:

    - Grind retention. Apparently is very bad due to horizontal path from chamber to exit chute.
    - Clumping. Seems to be noted as worse than other grinders in its class.

    Certain US forums would have me believe that the Mahlkonig Vario is a substantially better grinder, but I find this hard to believe given the price and build quality difference to the M4D.

    Interested to hear an AU perspective from any M4D (or Vario) owners...

    Thanks!
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  2. #2
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by grindy View Post
    I'm currently looking to upgrade to an electronic dosing grinder, and was set on the M4D until i started reading forum reviews. Two specific issues have me worried about using it as a low volume (3-4 shots a day) home grinder:

    - Grind retention. Apparently is very bad due to horizontal path from chamber to exit chute.
    - Clumping. Seems to be noted as worse than other grinders in its class.

    Certain US forums would have me believe that the Mahlkonig Vario is a substantially better grinder, but I find this hard to believe given the price and build quality difference to the M4D.

    Interested to hear an AU perspective from any M4D (or Vario) owners...

    Thanks!
    Welcome to CS grindy,

    Erm, in a nutshell, nope.
    • all commercial grinders retain some grinds. This is the least expensive part of your coffee setup. Does 20 or 30c matter that much?
    • all doserless grinders clump to some extent. Cheap nasty grinders produce extrusions, not soft clumps which break up with the slightest contact
    • the M4D is one of our biggest sellers, yet is rarely available 2nd hand- i.e people purchase it, love it and keep it.
    • The one comparison I have seen (v mini-e) uses 2 dramatically different grind settings with the Mazzer being much coarser. Of course it clumps less in this scenario!
    • The Vario? For me, I see a $400 appliance which sells at well over $600. I can't see the value in it (this is not to say it's an unsatisfactory grinder)

    Chris
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  3. #3
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Welcome to CS grindy!

    I hope you have fun on the forum! ;-D

    +1 to Chris' comments above. I have owned two Macap M4s; a doser in the staff room at work, doserless on the bench at home.
    I now have a Robur-e, which retains 4x the grinds of the Macap. Your concerns are unwarranted!

    The Macap M4 is an excellent grinder and the doser model is still in excellent nick at my neighbour's and still on shot duty after 7 years,
    it's still in original condition. The doserless was sold to a member in Brisbane, so I can't report on it.

    Both grinders were sold for 80% of their purchase price and were about 5 years old at the time of the sale, testimony to Chris' comments above.
    They both sold quickly, the M4D on this site, snapped up by the 1st responder, no negotiation on price.

    Performance wise, they are a top notch grinder and are my preference over the Mazzer Mini, tho' there's not much in the difference.
    The M4D will look very stylish and impressive on your bench and deliver 1st rate grinds.

    My Robur-e will throw some small 'clumps'. It's easy to get nervous when reading on-line reviews; you just never know if there is a hidden agenda, bias,
    uneven playing field, kickback for a certain outcome or 'unscientific' methodology. Always be aware of the internet ( despite where we are now!!!!),
    it's easy to be swayed by 'authoritative' discourse.

    If you want to purge, then 7g is all you will need to dump. A pittance.

    Nothing beats a hands-on trial if you can organise it, after all it's a big spend.
    Last edited by chokkidog; 2nd January 2014 at 10:06 AM. Reason: the punctuation blues
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    Grindy

    As an owner of a M4D and basically a milk drinker (90% of the time), this is a wonderful piece of kit that resides in my house. As chokkidog says 7g purge and for freshness, it is a no brainer for a snob!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Grindy,
    The M4D is an excellent piece of equipment. It looks great and is the perfect size for a home setup. I am very happy with mine and have no intention of upgrading. Build quality is excellent.
    Yes it does clump a bit, but there are many factors, including humidity that contribute to this. I distribute the grinds before tamping, and find the clumps fall apart very easily. Clumping will not affect the taste in the cup, your grind and dose will.
    The grind retention is minimal. When you change beans and the grinds are a different colour, the exact amount of retention is obvious. I would estimate it to be in the vicinity of 3-4 grams. This is negligible.
    Having owned a commercial grinder (doser) previously, I find the M4D a lot easier to use. Clean up is quick.
    As per the great advice in the above posts, a hands-on trial is sage advice, and will give you a better idea than numerous internet posts that may have a hidden agenda.
    I do not believe the Vario offers the same bang for buck that a M4D does, but that is my opinion.
    Good luck with your choice!

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    Thanks for the responses all. I understand that all doserless commercial grinders suffer some degree of grind retention and clumping, I guess my concern was that the M4D was particularly bad. Actually I just now came across this post on CS about clumping/retention on the M4D... note the long horizontal exit path in the photos: http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...ification.html

    In contrast the Vario has a short, *vertical* exit path from the grind chamber, so has minimal retention and by all accounts very little clumping/extrusion.

    Still a tough choice, however good to know that there are a lot of happy M4D users out there! If only Mahlkonig made a Vario with the M4D build quality and looks, my decision would be much easier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosco_Lever View Post
    Grindy,
    The M4D is an excellent piece of equipment. It looks great and is the perfect size for a home setup. I am very happy with mine and have no intention of upgrading. Build quality is excellent.
    Yes it does clump a bit, but there are many factors, including humidity that contribute to this. I distribute the grinds before tamping, and find the clumps fall apart very easily. Clumping will not affect the taste in the cup, your grind and dose will.
    The grind retention is minimal. When you change beans and the grinds are a different colour, the exact amount of retention is obvious. I would estimate it to be in the vicinity of 3-4 grams. This is negligible.
    Having owned a commercial grinder (doser) previously, I find the M4D a lot easier to use. Clean up is quick.
    As per the great advice in the above posts, a hands-on trial is sage advice, and will give you a better idea than numerous internet posts that may have a hidden agenda.
    I do not believe the Vario offers the same bang for buck that a M4D does, but that is my opinion.
    Good luck with your choice!
    Sorry abit off topic here but I understand that machine will have some retentions but 3-4g isnt that too much?? My mazzer super jolly doser max retention is probably 1 g? as I only pour whatever I need and I always weight them before and after grinding most of the time weight in 18g then weight out after grinding 18g too.

    But I heard good things about m4D but i dont have any experiance with it.

  8. #8
    TOK
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    Without having measured this for either grinder, but having a good "fist" of each of the machines mentioned in the post directly above, , I suspect 3 to 4 g retention for the M4 is very possibly overestimated (and notice the original author's wording "...I would estimate...") , and the 1 g for the SJ is very possibly understated.

    Will be happy to retract if someone here now whisks out a set of calibrated "trade certified" scales accurate to 0.1 g, and goes to the trouble of checking the figures using the same blend beans from the same packet, and an equivalent grind adjustment as calibrated by dialing in to make similar flowing espressos on the same espresso machine. That is not to be facetious, its to make sure that if someone goes to the trouble, that the comparison is done in a meaningful way.


    All of that said......in *practical* terms, I would have to ask the question.....what is "grind retention" as in....is it really THAT important? My feeling is it is something people talk about in theoretical terms so they can make comparisons and review what they think or dont think is a good or better grinder than some other grinder, for purposes of making a purchase, and not wanting to feel that they didnt buy "the best" piece of equipment.

    When the choice has been made, whatever it may or may not retain becomes totally irrelevant.....if you chose well and bought a good grinder from a wholistic point of view. EG, if you buy a "cheap" grinder, there will other factors that will (in my opinion) be much more important than grind retention, especially in view of what happpens in the cup which is the important bit, compared to some other grinder that is a much "better" package over all.

    Thats just my point of view, and I hope that helps.

    And to answer the main question: The M4D is a fantastic grinder as are any of the Macap "D" series grinders, and will serve excellently in a home use situation for decades if not years.
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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Agreed TOK and Chris, grind retention is a complete furphy. (@3c/gm approx for retail roast???).

    I also wanted to comment on the excellent step-less adjustment of the Macap.

    An 'oh so simple in it's brilliance and brilliant in it's simplicity' worm drive. Smooth and easy as!

    Where were Mazzer when this bit was on the design table?
    They still use what is more or less a stick and operator grunt,
    even on a 3k Robur! Not very sophisticated or as easily adjusted.

    P.S. And as to the thread title..... the M4D would be 'perfect choice for home grinder' ;-D
    Last edited by chokkidog; 2nd January 2014 at 03:22 PM. Reason: p.s.
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  10. #10
    TOK
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    Oh should add....yes the "micrometric" worm drive is super simple and accurate but has one acchilles heal for people related to arnold achwarzenegger. Kindly note, if for a any reason the adjuster becomes hard to move or is jammed, the arnie's amongst us who are prone to force things, will damage the mechanism.

    Note this is not the grinder's or the manufacturers problem and wont be covered under any guarantee (unless an individual trader may wish to do his client a favour and accepts that the importer is not going to support him because to force a piece of equipment into failure is not a warrantable defect). Please do not force things if they dont want to move. It rarely happens, but it can happen.

    The other good thing about the mad cap is that it can be purchased in stepped as well as micrometric form (depending on the individual supply, as there are currently 3 individual Macap importers in Oz that I know of) . That will of course bring on another silly discussion about how stepless (micrometric / whatever) adjustment is "better" than stepped so lets just get it on the table right now and get it over with. The stepped adjuster on modern Macap grinders is flawless and offers instant adjustment changes for those that want to grind more than one type of coffee eg....espresso machine at home, but plunger at work.....with a quality stepped grinder....no problem.

    I also expect that over a period of years or decades the mad cap with require far less service intervention than the marl kone ig which = far less added cost over the period of ownership. It is simply......a far simpler grinder over all. That is not to say the marl kone ig is not also an excellent grinder because it is, but there are inherent differences that need to noted and taken into consideration when making an individual choice.

    And oh well, forgot about the "clumping" issue. The only way you wont get any clumping from any grinder is by buying a doser grinder instead of a grinder with en exit shute. Doser grinders dont have a "shute" as such, and if there are any clumps in a doser grinder (grinding too fine for the application???) they get busted up as you use the doser unit to flick grinds into the group handle.
    Problem solved.....what problem?

    Again, hope that helps.
    Last edited by TOK; 2nd January 2014 at 03:56 PM.
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  11. #11
    joe
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    [QUOTE=grindy;519148]
    I'm currently looking to upgrade to an electronic dosing grinder, and was set on the M4D until i started reading forum reviews. Two specific issues have me worried about using it as a low volume (3-4 shots a day) home grinder:

    - Grind retention. Apparently is very bad due to horizontal path from chamber to exit chute.
    - Clumping. Seems to be noted as worse than other grinders in its class.
    [\QUOTE]

    I've had my M4 Doserless for six years, using it daily, and haven't found the clumping an issue.

    There are always a few grams left in the chute after a grind, but part of my routine after grinding is to put a spoon handle up the chute to dislodge any coffee left there into the group handle basket. Some coffees tend to clump more than others, but it's never more than 3 or 4 grams in my experience.

    IMHO you have nothing to worry about.

  12. #12
    TC
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    +1 on TOK's comments

    I think we (as internet forum inhabitants) also need to be mindful that the overwhelming majority of internet reviews of coffee gear are written by owners who may not have much in the way of broader experience on equipment other than what they already own.

    I won't sell anything which works poorly or that I wouldn't happily own. I have an M4D as my 2nd home grinder (with the Kony-E). The M4D should really be compared with the Super Jolly-E which it outperforms on throughput and equals on grind quality. The M4D is an excellent grinder and will be around a lot longer than any appliance grinder.
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  13. #13
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    Grind retention???

    Never knew that this was a problem that required solving.

    Have owned a number of different grinders over the years and the mere fact of having to 'clear' the old grinds from the innards of the grinder before starting a new espresso session has become second nature. I've never weighed the amount of grinds that are cleared before each session but if I had to guess, it would be around half-a-shot's worth on average - A pittance to be sure.

    Best advice, as has been repeated several times by very experienced people above, is to setup a demo session (at your nearest specialist coffee hardware retailer), between the grinders that interest you. What you're looking for, is a grinder that produces consistently high quality ground coffee, that, in turn, allows your espresso machine to elicit that pure, chocolatey golden nectar from the Group Handle; time and time again. The wastage of a mere 3-4 grams of coffee at the start of each brewing session is neither here nor there, when you're sitting back enjoying that glorious espresso.

    Priorities do need to be properly assigned...

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grindy View Post
    - Clumping. Seems to be noted as worse than other grinders in its class.
    Yes, my M4d clumps more than the Macap M5 doser than it replaced, but I love the convenience of the automatic dosing and can't discern a difference in the shots. Besides, I've always reckoned that when I tamp I'm converting those relatively small clumps into one large clump.

    Best wishes, Russell
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Arcade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Grind retention???

    Never knew that this was a problem that required solving.

    Priorities do need to be properly assigned...

    Mal.
    Yes but it's a valid question. If there were two similarly priced, spec'd grinders, one retaining ~1g, the other ~5g, I know which one I'd be going for. Even if you purge you'll likely get some old grounds in your basket.

    I'm in the grinder market as well, finding it's fruitless to make a decision online as there are as many positive and negative reviews on all grinders if you look hard enough. But then I wonder how effective an in-store demo will be because you probably need to live with a grinder for a week to really know its strengths and weaknesses (could be wrong, I'm new to this!).

    I think I'll narrow it down then take a punt personally!

  16. #16
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    Yes but it's a valid question. If there were two similarly priced, spec'd grinders, one retaining ~1g, the other ~5g, I know which one I'd be going for. Even if you purge you'll likely get some old grounds in your basket.
    I wouldn't recommend the purchase of a Tata over an Audi simply because the Tata had a sunroof...

    Best to consider all usability aspects when you purchase a grinder

    Cheers

    Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by grindy View Post
    I'm currently looking to upgrade to an electronic dosing grinder, and was set on the M4D until i started reading forum reviews. Two specific issues have me worried about using it as a low volume (3-4 shots a day) home grinder:

    - Grind retention. Apparently is very bad due to horizontal path from chamber to exit chute.
    - Clumping. Seems to be noted as worse than other grinders in its class.

    Certain US forums would have me believe that the Mahlkonig Vario is a substantially better grinder, but I find this hard to believe given the price and build quality difference to the M4D.

    Interested to hear an AU perspective from any M4D (or Vario) owners...

    Thanks!
    Hi grindy

    I thought I would let a few people with M4D's and others throw their views in for a while.

    I posted a few thoughts about my Mahlkonig Vario Gen2 on http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...tml#post517003 and also on http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...tml#post516769. That user wanted something that wasn't messy, and it also covers some of the issues you raise here. My other current grinder is a big beast conical (Bo-ema RR45) whilst my "grinder history" mainly includes a variety of commercial Dittings, Mazzers etc.

    Other points: Mahlkonig is a Swiss company that mainly makes industrial strength grinders. One of the Perth roasters has one that is still working flawlessly after well over a decade (it has outlasted 4 owners). It is basically a previous incarnation of their current EK43. Unless they have just been cleaned & calibrated their SJ and mini (low use decaf) cannot equal its performance, and it also retains far less grinds that either of them. No one can remember when it last had its burrs / auger replaced, if ever! The SJ burrs go about 4 months per set there.

    Vario: I suggest you do yourself a huge favour and go and see one in action.

    Firstly, pick it up: You would think it was made of lead and concrete according to the expected / actual weight. The main mechanism & frame is easy to see if you pull the top burr off, and that is where all the grinder's weight is concentrated. To call it a domestic appliance is actually quite an insult unless you regard it's domestic friendly styling as the only criteria for making that call.

    Then set it to (say) macro1 micro D (a good grind for VST baskets) and do a white paper test to check the particle size & variation. Compare it to the same test for any other grinder on your list. Most of them cannot even grind that fine in the first place and if they can it is accompanied by a huge spread of particle sizes. Oh, the espresso range is from 1A to 3W (about 75 easily repeated steps). Only stepless grinders can come come close to that in theory, however both the accuracy of their fine adjustment & the repeatability are questionable. One Vario micro step makes a shot difference of around a second (i.e. unless you use good scales, any minor weight variation will move the shot timing more). I find moving around three micro steps at a time is needed to make a difference worth noting. The great thing is that as the roasts age, one micro step coarser each day or so is a really simple way to match it.

    Clumping: Perth is fairly dry, so it tends to have more static problems than more humid climates and most grinders tend to clump more here. Mt Vario doesn't clump at all so far: just comes straight out as "fluff" which spreads fairly evenly with a gentle side to side shake before I tamp it. I use the p/f holder into a VST / naked and it is yet to put one grain of coffee on the bench (that is a welcome first plus a total surprise for me).

    Best & Worst points: See the threads above. The only things I would update: As it runs in, it seems to be getting even quieter. I still prefer to dose using only one hand, the Vario needs one on the p/f and one to hit start. Having said that, the three timer settings are user configurable and have been within 0.1g of each use so far (as long as you do not alter the grind settings).

    Summary: Best grinder I have had at home, and it is unbeatable in that environment.

    TampIt

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    My opinion (for what its worth) is that it can be very difficult reading lots of internet reviews - some people get caught up in the minutiae. I think they are great to get an idea and then go and see the real thing.

    Coffeesnobs is a fantastic site with some very knowledgeable people that I would trust well before an overseas site.
    On overseas sites you probably won't get local site sponsors who stand by their equipment as well as here and are available for back up. As suggested by others visit one of them and try all the grinders in your price bracket.

    I've had my M4D for about 6 years and love it. It does clump a little but no worse than the Mazzer mini it replaced.It is very humid here in the tropics and ALL of the grinders I have had have left clumps. It will be a long time before I change my M4D
    Cheers
    Dr Dave

  19. #19
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    An 'oh so simple in it's brilliance and brilliant in it's simplicity' worm drive. Smooth and easy as!
    Where were Mazzer when this bit was on the design table?
    They still use what is more or less a stick and operator grunt,
    even on a 3k Robur! Not very sophisticated or as easily adjusted.
    Morning Chokkidog,

    I agree with your assessment of the adjuster on Mazzer grinders being very basic, however I see this as a strength rather than a weakness, the mechanism is simplicity its self, give the threads a clean out once in a while (anyone can do it in a few minutes) and its completely trouble free as well as being easy to adjust.

    As far as the M4 worm drive is concerned, I see it as unnecessary complexity of design and a potential source of problems.

    Regardless of my opinion there are obviously many happy M4 owners out there who experience no problems at all, just a bit of a plug for the KISS principle on my part.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Dave View Post
    My opinion (for what its worth) is that it can be very difficult reading lots of internet reviews - some people get caught up in the minutiae. I think they are great to get an idea and then go and see the real thing.

    Coffeesnobs is a fantastic site with some very knowledgeable people that I would trust well before an overseas site.
    On overseas sites you probably won't get local site sponsors who stand by their equipment as well as here and are available for back up. As suggested by others visit one of them and try all the grinders in your price bracket.

    I've had my M4D for about 6 years and love it. It does clump a little but no worse than the Mazzer mini it replaced.It is very humid here in the tropics and ALL of the grinders I have had have left clumps. It will be a long time before I change my M4D
    Cheers
    Dr Dave
    Morning Dave,

    As a matter of interest can you tell me how you find the M4 compared to the Mazzer Mini? as mentioned in my previous post in this thread I do like simplicity in design and operation, however I'm not closed minded, would consider a change if the benefits out weighed the down side.

  21. #21
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Greetings Yelta!

    Yes, it is simple......................but not so easy if you have some movement
    restriction or injury that impedes. ( my experience is limited to the bigger Mazzers ).
    The bolt has been known to break [grinds in the thread?;-)], so a spare high tensile bolt in the bits and pieces drawer
    is an idea, especially for cafes and the more remote locations.

    Having used two M4's, work & home, for 5 years and with one still next door, the worm drives are just fine
    and have never given trouble.

    I have used a mini but never adjusted the grind on one so the small burrs/carriers might be easy to move??

    At the end of the day, both systems work well, neither are complicated and are up to the task
    if kept clean and maintained..................a premise which applies to all our gear! ;-D

    Like grind retention, it's neither a deal maker, or a deal breaker, there are more important considerations ..............

    Have a good one! :-D

  22. #22
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    Yes but it's a valid question. If there were two similarly priced, spec'd grinders, one retaining ~1g, the other ~5g, I know which one I'd be going for. Even if you purge you'll likely get some old grounds in your basket.

    I'm in the grinder market as well, finding it's fruitless to make a decision online as there are as many positive and negative reviews on all grinders if you look hard enough. But then I wonder how effective an in-store demo will be because you probably need to live with a grinder for a week to really know its strengths and weaknesses (could be wrong, I'm new to this!).

    I think I'll narrow it down then take a punt personally!
    Hi Arcade and welcome to CS!

    There are a couple of grinders in the market that home users never upgrade, hardly ever, if at all, replace and
    give brilliant results and are rarely resold. These same grinders are not the subject of endless discussion re problems and user issues
    (but will have their respective 'camps)'. Go to 'hardware for sale' sub-forum and check resale against new price for any
    of the grinders on your list...............a telling indicator.
    Your budget will determine what you can purchase, get yourself to a good supplier............there are plenty
    on this site and you will find yourself drawn to one over the other.

    Re-read Mal's post #12...... it encapsulates the essence of what your buying criteria should be.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Arcade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I wouldn't recommend the purchase of a Tata over an Audi simply because the Tata had a sunroof...

    Best to consider all usability aspects when you purchase a grinder

    Cheers

    Chris
    That's why I said "similarly spec'd". My point is that retention is a valid concern. I'm not saying it's higher on priority than the quality of the grind, just saying it's something that should be considered imo.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Must admit grind retention is pretty low on my priority list, not saying it doesn't exist, just a matter of either ignoring or managing it, in my home situation I manage it on the Mazzer Mini by brushing out the doser and delivery chute after every shot, retention and effort are minimal.
    Last edited by Yelta; 5th January 2014 at 03:44 PM. Reason: spelling

  25. #25
    TOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    That's why I said "similarly spec'd". My point is that retention is a valid concern. I'm not saying it's higher on priority than the quality of the grind, just saying it's something that should be considered imo.

    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on all counts for the following reasons:

    IMO "grind retention" in good quality grinders of whatever brand, is an internet invention, just like a lot of other stuff that people like to discuss round in circles.

    Same with grind quality. What grind quality? Seems like an aweful lot of discussion, for an aweful few cuppas where if all the variables in the equation are handled (by the operator), will be of excellent quality regardless.

    Of course, we are all individuals and have differing opinions etc. My opinion is there is nothing valid about comparing grind retention or even grind quality once you get to the level of grinders that get discussed here. They all work, they all make good coffee, you take em home, and live with what you have. Its that simple, and I am a happy believer in KISS.

    Of course there are plenty that arent, and I hope we now dont have to suffer through the usual barage of indignation from the floor...

    All the grinders mentioned in this thread are excellent grinders and if a choice comes down to what each of them is said to "retain" (in internet posts written by anonymous joes whose expertise you cannot check) and you make a choice on that basis only, you could be buying the lesser grinder for your needs ie, when all of the grinder attributes are taken into consideration.

    Like everyone here I really like good quality equipment, but I hate to see decisions being made on the basis of ideas that (I think) are over the top. Before making a selection, please check with a professional trader, and do give him the benefit of a good hearing rather than discounting what he has to say in favour of solely reading information posted on the web by anonymous posters whose bonafides are unclear and who may be pushing their own barrow...

    Hope that helps.
    Last edited by TOK; 5th January 2014 at 12:42 PM.
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  26. #26
    Senior Member Arcade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    No worries Arcade. If the opinions of sponsors and a host of owners are of low relevance to you, that's fine.

    You want zero retention? I recommend a hand grinder or better still, a mortar and pestle.
    My opinion is as valid as a sponsor's. As a retailer you'd be wise to listen to customers. FYI I currently use a hand grinder.

    Grind retention is extremely low on my priority list but it's on there.

    Oh an TOK, I am with you 100% on your above post.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    My opinion is as valid as a sponsor's. As a retailer you'd be wise to listen to customers. FYI I currently use a hand grinder.



    .
    Sure is, Arcade. But the difference in experience with the grinder in question, and relationships with numerous customers who have purchased the grinder, are happy with it, and haven't had an issue with grind retention, might just induce a few people to put a little more weight on some opinions than others. No disrespect intended.

    I do get what you're saying in post #14, but your stylised example isn't really representative of many choices facing real customers (not saying it never happens).

  28. #28
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    I think we are done now.
    (I removed the silly posts)

    Good luck with your purchase grindy!
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