Results 1 to 40 of 40
Like Tree19Likes
  • 1 Post By Gavisconi007
  • 1 Post By Luke_G
  • 1 Post By TOK
  • 1 Post By Yelta
  • 2 Post By Gavisconi007
  • 3 Post By mwcalder05
  • 1 Post By shortblackman
  • 2 Post By Yelta
  • 1 Post By noidle22
  • 1 Post By Yelta
  • 1 Post By Yelta

Thread: when they say grinders are important as the coffee machine itself...

  1. #1
    Member Grummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    36

    when they say grinders are important as the coffee machine itself...

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    how far is this?, how close? more or less important?
    what irradiate me is i find many discussion says a Mazzer Mini is a good all rounder, then other threads says its dosser are a real nuisance because it is a "Pro-oriented accessory part of the grinder for a busy cafe environment"...while its all true, and its convenience are a sometime a welcome feature that works for some...that operating word some is something of a condition requiring a particular prerequisite of a kitchen or bar set up at the home...

    then its said...theres debates of dosser/dosserless, a variety of switch layouts, throat size, chute size, and obstructions and so forth, in addition 'fixes' which are varied and sometimes difficult to find as some are buried so depth into different forums, some places are not even coffee-related, such as computer gamers or hospitality/trade related.

    to cut the chase, why are many discourage to go past the Mazzer mini or Super Jolly, when there are at least two dozens more options, granted some have timers, or electronic dossers or bigger burrs or that their gearing mechanisms claims to be 'special'

    then...its like saying your 'fancy' commodore with an add-on of a rear boot mounted spoilers with an engine making 20% more power than stock is going to benefit or need tyres thats are costing 2 to 4x more than ordinary width, softness of its rubber. Even so we know, its doesn't end there, tyres can go extra wider with fenders made wider, and then some houses bigger diffs and shafts, changing the game again....

    what it is, is that you'd get car fanatics saying those tyres are not needed, but essential for the track, and then there is street-stock class of racing using almost road tyres

    sound familiar? As with coffee grinders, its like we all seem to justify something or is it some of us are hiding unfounded misguided beliefs or something (else)

    now come back to the question, if a Mazzer Mini or a Macap M4D or MC4 or Super Jolly is more than what we use or demand, then the paradox springs back up, why then it's so important or it isn't That important when you can get a Kony, or Nino or even a used Ditting.

    That kind of double standard is intriguing
    comments anyone?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    Have a read through this recent thread Grummer http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...vs-k3-m2m.html It may help to answer some of your interesting questions.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    'They' say such things because there are so many factors in a grinder that can affect your in-the-cup experience. With the machine it's basically, 'can it get to the right temperature?' and 'will it achieve the right pressure?'

    To put it another way, you can buy the best espresso machine you can find and stuff up the coffee with a poor grinder, but coffee ground to the right size, with a minimal spread of grain size, will make a pretty decent drink through almost any machine that meets the basics.

    Or to use your analogy, any car in decent condition will handle well with good rubber, but the best car in the world will kill you if the tyres are crap.

    So yes, the grinder is at least as important as the machine, but it's not doser/doserless that matters, it is what it does to a bean.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    600
    Rhymes with bobble dee book
    Vinitasse likes this.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Luke_G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Northen Rivers
    Posts
    659
    A relevant question Grummer.

    Your analogy to car tires is not the best one to use and here is why.
    If you were allowed to drive your car at the best of your ability and not limited by anything or anyone, would you not buy the best tires you can lay your hands on?

    I tell a lot of people this and their reaction if always the same.
    I would rather make coffee using a $1000 grinder and a $100 machine than the other way around. So many variables can be adjusted using a high end grinder.

    My advice?
    Buy the best grinder you can afford and upgrade your machine when funds permit after that.
    mds likes this.

  6. #6
    Member Grummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Have a read through this recent thread Grummer http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/3...vs-k3-m2m.html It may help to answer some of your interesting questions.
    yes sir, I have seen and re-read this thread like 5 times....

    I like the last post in this thread :
    I recently upgraded from a Rocky to mini Mazzer and I love the Mazzer!! Doser isnt an issue for me I only grind what I need each time but I find the doser great because while its grinding tithe doser I'm getting cups milk etc ready, then when grinding is done, dose, level, tamp and pull shot. But that's just my routine and what works for me!

    Let's r honest in the eyes of "normal people" (whoever they are they think all of this in overkill. All of these grinders will be fantastic just come to personal preference on looks, colour, size and if u like doser or not. Don't stress too much just pick one, buy it and enjoy the fruits of its grinding labour!!


    now....this is kind of related right back to MY question....

    indeed he loves the Mazzer, absolutely no doubt!...
    now, with this newly found happiness (it would be like getting a brand new Commodore Clubsport, its not a Ferrari, nor a Blown 454 Chevy in a 46' Ford Pick up truck, or a German 911)

    now, once you been in one of those later cars, you'd never go back to the Clubsport although most will do go back, on basis of practicality.

    on other hand, is there life (or next life) after the Mazzer, ie becoming a Porsche owner?

    To me, Super Jolly is like a Chevy, then Robur is like a V12 Mercedes, but i wanna a Porsche I had a laugh

    OK...um...

    Commodores have some quirks somewhere, perhaps boot size isn't as good as an ordinary german mercedes sedan or the smoothness of the V8 isn't the same as the Ferrari in a Lancia's 8.32 (rare Ferrari engines Lancia sedan)

    pop back again to grinders,
    would a Fiorenzato bit like an older Porsche 911, (ie with better doser, better built motor, but slightly 'old looking body' maybe a bit quiter , just a slightly better 'Mazzer'
    like ok
    its a german version of a commodore

    does this make any sense??

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,275
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummer View Post
    on other hand, is there life (or next life) after the Mazzer, ie becoming a Porsche owner?

    To me, Super Jolly is like a Chevy, then Robur is like a V12 Mercedes, but i wanna a Porsche I had a laugh
    There is one big difference between a grinder and a car..
    The best grinder can be bought for ~~$3k , whilst the Porsche would cost near $300k
    ..and you dont have stamp duty or rego, or insurance , etc etc for the grinder !
    So for relatively little $$'s you can buy whatever grinder you think might ring your bell,
    ..and if you dont like it, trade it for some other make to see if you can tell a difference.
    A relatively, inexpensive pass time compared to cars. ! ( or women !)

    PS.. in previous posts, i have likened the MMini to a 1980's Merc sedan..
    ..solid , reliable, a little slow, noisy, and still not cheap to buy.
    You certainly would question why you might buy a new one today considering all the new modern improved options.

  8. #8
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    Re post #7. Sorry...no.

    Any of the cafe spec planar (normal flat grinding plate or burr) grinders will give you a similar result in the cup regardless of the size (diameter) of their grinding plates. The bigger they get, the more quickly they deliver product. Its a cafe thing for working in busy environments....

    If you want something a bit different, look at cafe spec conical burr grinders.

    The result in the cup will a little different. As stated previously, that doesnt mean one is better than the other....just different. Only you can decide what you like better than something else. And if you drink milk coffees, I doubt you will realistically taste any difference. And if you have a less than reasonable standard espresso machine, or dont have a well established high level and understanding barista technique, I also doubt you will tell the difference. It will depend on your level of progression through your coffee journey, and how good your own palate is. Some people have good palates, and others dont.

    You would then need to decide for yourself, whether spending say $450.00 on sopmething like Macap M2M OR Compak K3, or say $800.00 on a Macap M4 or Mazzer Mini (all FLAT plated), or say somewhere near $2000.00 for a Macap M7K (conical) or Compak K10, or more for other even bigger more heavy duty cafe spec conicals, is worth it to you for the differences they you may or may not pick in your 2 to 3 coffees per day at home.... So there is a cost benefit analysis in there for you as well.....Are the differences you may or may not be able to pick on your palate, that you may get from spending a lot more money, worth it to you?

    After that, if you want a large 20 kilo grinder sitting on your kitchen bench just because you do and it makes you feel better, go for it, but dont mistake that for "better" unless you have a good understanding of what "better" means to you.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    Enough with the rambling rhetoric Grummer, read the first sentence in your last post and thought, this is better! then the wheels fell off (oh dear cars again) and my eyes glazed over, sometimes less is more

    The relationship between machines and grinders is a simple concept that most come to understand early on in our coffee life, them that don't get it will find the espresso process more than a little frustrating.

  10. #10
    TOK
    TOK is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    697
    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    ...The best grinder can be bought for ~~$3k , whilst the Porsche would cost near $300k
    .....So for relatively little $$'s you can buy whatever grinder you think might ring your bell,
    ..and if you dont like it, trade it for some other make to see if you can tell a difference.
    A relatively, inexpensive pass time compared to cars. ! ( or women !)......
    Definition of "BEST"......??? I guess you are talking about large cafe spec conical grinders where BEST is that they deliver the largest possible volume/quantity of grinds in the shortest possible time, with less likelihood of overheating and activating the thermal cut out swich....therefore less likelihood of paralysing your business because the grinder has stopped grinding and you can nolonger sell coffee until it cools and restarts.

    It seems to be a common miconception that these grinders are designed to give "better" grinds/coffee, when they are actually designed to better deliver a high volume of grinds and for you to better manage your cafe business... If they result in a different coffee to what you get from grinders with flat plates, that is a secondary outcome....and only individuals can decide on what they like best for themselves.

    For the rest of it....yes, much less exi than playing with fast cars and fast women...
    soso likes this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    Rhymes with bobble dee book
    Wow! Such meaningful contribution. Way to waste a post.

    Perhaps you might explain just what I wrote that is incorrect? Or are you just a troll?

  12. #12
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Wow! Such meaningful contribution. Way to waste a post.

    Perhaps you might explain just what I wrote that is incorrect? Or are you just a troll?
    I don't think Gaviscon was referring to your post JM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Bendigo
    Posts
    1,029
    Maybe so, but in that case s/he needs to identify which one draws the comment. Even then, such comments are just a waste of space and contribute nothing to a conversation.

    cheers...

  14. #14
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I don't think Gaviscon was referring to your post JM.

    Correct........

  15. #15
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Maybe so, but in that case s/he needs to identify which one draws the comment. Even then, such comments are just a waste of space and contribute nothing to a conversation.

    cheers...
    Its an opinion, that may or may not be justified, we're all entitled to em.
    Vinitasse likes this.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Maybe so, but in that case s/he needs to identify which one draws the comment. Even then, such comments are just a waste of space and contribute nothing to a conversation.

    cheers...

    If "one" was identifiable within the post I would have identified it.........I had a laugh
    Deano and Vinitasse like this.

  17. #17
    Senior Member noidle22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Bathurst
    Posts
    1,157
    My previous car was a 1989 Mercedes 190E. If that's what a Mazzer Mini is like then I'd probably buy one. I liked that car. Cost me $2000 so it's even cheaper than a high end grinder.

    However, I now own a 2006 Mazda 3 MPS that set be back around $15k. Is it a better car than the old Mercedes? Yes and no. It certainly isn't as comfortable, probably not quite as fuel efficient either. It is a lot faster, more well-equipped and more fun though.

    So what I'm saying is that an old coffee grinder that was cheap compared to a new one is still better in some ways but not in others. I dunno, i don't think I've got the hang of this analogies game.....

  18. #18
    Member Grummer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    36
    Hi, this is good response, so yes - you did got the hang of the analogy fine, good comparison. Cheers

    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    My previous car was a 1989 Mercedes 190E. If that's what a Mazzer Mini is like then I'd probably buy one. I liked that car. Cost me $2000 so it's even cheaper than a high end grinder.

    However, I now own a 2006 Mazda 3 MPS that set be back around $15k. Is it a better car than the old Mercedes? Yes and no. It certainly isn't as comfortable, probably not quite as fuel efficient either. It is a lot faster, more well-equipped and more fun though.

    So what I'm saying is that an old coffee grinder that was cheap compared to a new one is still better in some ways but not in others. I dunno, i don't think I've got the hang of this analogies game.....

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,275
    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    My previous car was a 1989 Mercedes 190E. If that's what a Mazzer Mini is like then I'd probably buy one. I liked that car. Cost me $2000 so it's even cheaper than a high end grinder.

    However, I now own a 2006 Mazda 3 MPS that set be back around $15k. Is it a better car than the old Mercedes? Yes and no. It certainly isn't as comfortable, probably not quite as fuel efficient either. It is a lot faster, more well-equipped and more fun though.

    So what I'm saying is that an old coffee grinder that was cheap compared to a new one is still better in some ways but not in others. I dunno, i don't think I've got the hang of this analogies game.....
    No , not really, .. my point was you pay todays prices for a 1980's model car(grinder) when you could pay a similar price for a 2014 model .
    Example.. If you had a choice of paying the same price for either a factory fresh, but 1980 spec , MB190... or (say) a 2014 Mazda 6..
    which one would you go for ?

  20. #20
    Senior Member mwcalder05's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sunshine Coast
    Posts
    437
    I would rather have a Robur E with a sunbeam em6910 to a em0480 with a GS3 any day. And here's why.

    The robur can give me the most consistent grind. I know ivd got the worse machine, but I know I can get the optimal extraction. If I have a great machine but a crap grind my machine can't magically improve on a terrible grind.

    The earlier you can improve on something in the chain, usually, the better your coffee will be. Whether it be the farm, the roaster, the grinder or the machine, all of these elements can only take away from what was before it. They can't improve it.

    The roaster can't improve a bad green bean. The grinder can't improve a bad roast and a machine can't improve a bad grind.

    Michael

  21. #21
    Senior Member noidle22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Bathurst
    Posts
    1,157
    Yea i was joking about the analogies thing, it doesn't really make sense.

    And I'd take the Mercedes without a second thought over the Mazda 6. The BK series of Mazda cars are the only decent ones and the MPS line the best of the series. I don't really like any of the others.
    Does this mean I'd prefer an old but good grinder over a new grinder? Nope.

  22. #22
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    2,095
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Sorry.... can't answer your question at the moment... apparently I've been irradiated and need a bit of a lie down
    Now, now Vinitasse, don't be a dosser!!

  23. #23
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mornington Peninsula VIC
    Posts
    1,251
    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    No , not really, .. my point was you pay todays prices for a 1980's model car(grinder) when you could pay a similar price for a 2014 model .
    Example.. If you had a choice of paying the same price for either a factory fresh, but 1980 spec , MB190... or (say) a 2014 Mazda 6..
    which one would you go for ?
    No offense to any 'Skyactiv' fans out there but the Mazda 6 would bore me to tears. I would happily take the 190 series Benz and thoroughly enjoy its quirkyness

  24. #24
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,660
    Is that the doserless Benz? Otherwise the other one's crap.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Is that the doserless Benz? Otherwise the other one's crap.
    I think it must be the doser model, otherwise it would be the 190E

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dandenongs
    Posts
    641
    My other car is a hopper.
    Grummer likes this.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    This thread seems to have hit the wall!
    chokkidog and TOK like this.

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,275
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    No offense to any 'Skyactiv' fans out there but the Mazda 6 would bore me to tears. I would happily take the 190 series Benz and thoroughly enjoy its quirkyness
    ...what if it were an Audi instead of the Mazda ?
    ..remember, there are plenty of choices of "new" grinders(cars) !

  29. #29
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Bundanoon NSW
    Posts
    24
    Geez.... I'm feeling a bit left out 'cos my grinder is just a low end Sunbeam EMO480.
    Yeah, that's "bottom feeding" in the grinder market and if you compare it to cars, maybe the 1970 Datsun 120Y but it works for me so well.

    Perfect caramel pour with tiger striping.... liquid gold !

    (yep, you're laughing at me again)

  30. #30
    Senior Member noidle22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Bathurst
    Posts
    1,157
    Quote Originally Posted by terrawarra View Post
    Geez.... I'm feeling a bit left out 'cos my grinder is just a low end Sunbeam EMO480.
    Yeah, that's "bottom feeding" in the grinder market and if you compare it to cars, maybe the 1970 Datsun 120Y but it works for me so well.

    Perfect caramel pour with tiger striping.... liquid gold !

    (yep, you're laughing at me again)


    You were saying.....
    timdimdom likes this.

  31. #31
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Bundanoon NSW
    Posts
    24
    Thanks noidle22.... don't ya just love it !

  32. #32
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    As the silly season seems to be early this year I might as well join in.

    As I said earlier.


    Car hits wall.jpg

  33. #33
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    As the silly season seems to be early this year I might as well join in.

    As I said earlier.


    Car hits wall.jpg


    Yelta is that a picture of the OP?.....????

  34. #34
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    Yelta is that a picture of the OP?.....????
    See post 28 Gavisconi.

  35. #35
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    See post 28 Gavisconi.
    Yeah I know....but I was kinda thinking it might have hit the wall well before #28. I had a laugh

  36. #36
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    Yeah I know....but I was kinda thinking it might have hit the wall well before #28. I had a laugh
    The occupant of the vehicle couldn't be identified.

    Yep, ya gotta have a sense of humour.
    Gavisconi007 likes this.

  37. #37
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,949
    The last time the thread topic was addressed with any seriousness was in post 21 by MWCalder.
    mwcalder05 likes this.

  38. #38
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    The last time the thread topic was addressed with any seriousness was in post 21 by MWCalder.

    In that case MWCalder needs a rap over the knuckles......I had a laugh

  39. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    297
    I know we are not supposed to post links but...

    Espresso Veloce Serie Titanio V12 od

  40. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Rockingham W.A.
    Posts
    1,406
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummer View Post
    how far is this?, how close? more or less important?
    what irradiate me is i find many discussion says a Mazzer Mini is a good all rounder, then other threads says its dosser are a real nuisance because it is a "Pro-oriented accessory part of the grinder for a busy cafe environment"...while its all true, and its convenience are a sometime a welcome feature that works for some...that operating word some is something of a condition requiring a particular prerequisite of a kitchen or bar set up at the home...

    then its said...theres debates of dosser/dosserless, a variety of switch layouts, throat size, chute size, and obstructions and so forth, in addition 'fixes' which are varied and sometimes difficult to find as some are buried so depth into different forums, some places are not even coffee-related, such as computer gamers or hospitality/trade related.

    to cut the chase, why are many discourage to go past the Mazzer mini or Super Jolly, when there are at least two dozens more options, granted some have timers, or electronic dossers or bigger burrs or that their gearing mechanisms claims to be 'special'

    then...its like saying your 'fancy' commodore with an add-on of a rear boot mounted spoilers with an engine making 20% more power than stock is going to benefit or need tyres thats are costing 2 to 4x more than ordinary width, softness of its rubber. Even so we know, its doesn't end there, tyres can go extra wider with fenders made wider, and then some houses bigger diffs and shafts, changing the game again....

    what it is, is that you'd get car fanatics saying those tyres are not needed, but essential for the track, and then there is street-stock class of racing using almost road tyres

    sound familiar? As with coffee grinders, its like we all seem to justify something or is it some of us are hiding unfounded misguided beliefs or something (else)

    now come back to the question, if a Mazzer Mini or a Macap M4D or MC4 or Super Jolly is more than what we use or demand, then the paradox springs back up, why then it's so important or it isn't That important when you can get a Kony, or Nino or even a used Ditting.

    That kind of double standard is intriguing
    comments anyone?
    Hi Grummer

    Just to return this thread to sanity & answer your questions.

    The grinder is far more important than anywhere further down the chain for one simple reason. The maximum quality is "locked in" by each stage, so the next stage is limited by whatever snafu / brilliance has preceded it. Look up the Italian 4 "M"'s. In "chain order" English, where there is an "M" prob:-

    1) Dud beans: no hope of a decent cuppa.
    2) Dud grinder: no hope of a decent cuppa.
    3) Dud machine: can use all manner of devices to get something drinkable, even if it is not an espresso, although a loss of quality may be incurred. Plungers, Ibriks, aeropress etc to the rescue (even saucepans).
    4) Dud "barista": probably no hope of a decent cuppa. Even after I ground, dosed and tamped the p/f, my 220V GS3 in the hands of an amiable idiot produced a cuppa inferior to Pablo Instant...

    The next question is "How good does each part of the chain have to be in order for the next stage to work properly?". Ongoing debate.

    Instead of posting new threads and trying to pick everyone's brains, please do a little basic research:
    CoffeeGeek - How to Buy an Espresso Machine
    [new members] Recommended reading - Read Me • Home-Barista.com
    will save you a lot of flaming. Your first CS threads will always be politely answered, after that: you can see what happens for yourself!

    TampIt
    PS: The CG guide was updated in 2010, the Vario gen2 is another huge step up for domestic CSrs IMO.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •