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Thread: Upgrade to Mazzer Kony

  1. #1
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    Smile Upgrade to Mazzer Kony

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all,
    Interested in some input from fellow snobs with a bit more experience than myself in grinders.
    My current set up is a expobar Minore 111 and a Mazzer Mini e with super jolly burs.

    I was considering upgrading Minore at one point to a GS3, however I am now thinking I will keep the Minore and upgrade my grinder to a Kony.

    My objective is to achieve a better taste. I am trying to achieve the same result as I get at my local cafe with the same beans (Seven Seeds Espresso blend) which I can not currently do with my set up. I have been trying for many years with this set up with dossing,grind,temperature. They are using Roburs and La Marzocco's.

    Do you think this will get me closer to the result I am looking for or will the Minore still be my weak point, (and maybe my skills as well)
    Cheers

  2. #2
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    I can't comment on taste differences, I jumped straight into gs3/kony combo and I find myself disappointed by most cafes these days.

    I'm not too clued up on the grind retention on the Mini's, but if I had my time again I would probably look into something with a little less grind retention for my home use (4-5 coffee household). That's not to say I'm not happy with the Kony, it just means I've had to take out the anti-static grid from the chute and brush it out fully to get it close to 1:1 in/out for single dosing. So this add's a few seconds on top of my usual routine, got it down pat but would be nice to not have to do it

  3. #3
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    i have both a mazzer mini manual and the kony e at home, using it with my Rocket R58 there is a definite taste difference.
    I was very skeptical at first also, but am glad i purchased the kony

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    Thanks for the feedback. I have read about retention and it does concern me a little. I would plan on weighing and single dosing each shot, which is what I currently do anyway. I read about some people using a small blower on HB to clean the grinds out of the shoot of the Kony. How many grams do you think you need to clear out before each shot?

  5. #5
    TC
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    Hi Davie,

    Large conical grinders are not suited to the technique you choose to use.

    If after an initial morning purge, you can taste the difference using your technique, you should purchase something more appropriate. I'd suggest you consider doing it by hand. The Lido E will be a better match.

    Chris
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    Thanks for the reply Chris. My main concern is taste.

    If I achieve closer to what my local caffe can then I will be happy. I don't mind dumping a few grinds.

    I only make about 8 of a weekend (2 for me and 2 for the wife each sat and sun).

  7. #7
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    If you are absolutely dead-set on getting a large conical grinder, there's more around than just the Kony/Robur-E units...

    If I was buying a large conical right now, would probably be looking very closely at a Macap M7D; better all-around design in my opinion...

    There is also the "Compak E10 Conic OD" and the "Elektra Nino MK" But I don't know who sells the Nino...

    Mal.
    Last edited by Dimal; 13th February 2016 at 04:39 PM.

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    Thank Mal. Not dead set on the Kony.....wouldn't go the Robur due to its size.

    Chris - I've just done a bit of research on the Lido and it sounds good. How do you think this would fair in taste to a Large conical such as Kony?

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    M7d properly dialled in even without a grind purge in the morning is so much better than 99% of the cafes it isnt funny. Wouldnt dream of pre weighing doses into it- totally unecessary.

  10. #10
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    Yes, love the conicals and I for one would not go back.

    Davie, I think the Lido E will help you make up your mind without the initial need to spend well over $2k. It will do everything a big conical will in terms of cup quality.

    It won't be difficult to on-sell any Lido if you decide it's not for you.

    Chris
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  11. #11
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    Davie, if you really want a Kony to grind as you describe you will have to modify the grind chute. There some CS who have done this and are very happy about it. They also replace the bean container with a variety of tubing. So with the advice given you may find some grinder that doesn't require modifying. That said my modified Kony-e is the best thing that happened to my coffee - well almost!

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    I've just gone through this process, spent weeks looking at all the options, I would have got a HG-1 if i could but my upgradeitis wouldn't stretch that far, settled on a kony but then i came across a near new Robur for $1100 so I went for it, thinking if its too big i can always sell it. I've had it for 2 days and i dont find it tedious at all. I single dose and brush the shute after each shot, bit like using a manual in the sense that there is a process involved in making the coffee. I've ordered a timer relay switch so I can have timed shot grinding if I am in a hurry, i will probably look at some sort of hopper mod to replace the giant hopper.

    If think you want a large conical just get one, only regret i have is that i didn't get to try a HG-1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by awinner View Post
    I've just gone through this process, spent weeks looking at all the options, I would have got a HG-1 if i could but my upgradeitis wouldn't stretch that far, settled on a kony but then i came across a near new Robur for $1100 so I went for it, thinking if its too big i can always sell it. I've had it for 2 days and i dont find it tedious at all. I single dose and brush the shute after each shot, bit like using a manual in the sense that there is a process involved in making the coffee. I've ordered a timer relay switch so I can have timed shot grinding if I am in a hurry, i will probably look at some sort of hopper mod to replace the giant hopper.

    If think you want a large conical just get one, only regret i have is that i didn't get to try a HG-1.
    What grinder did you have previously, and have you noticed a difference in taste with the Robur. Doesn't the HG-1 use the same burrs as the Robur, so I wouldn't imagine that much difference in taste between the two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davie View Post
    What grinder did you have previously, and have you noticed a difference in taste with the Robur. Doesn't the HG-1 use the same burrs as the Robur, so I wouldn't imagine that much difference in taste between the two.
    Its an extreme change, my previous grinder was a rocky and yes, I still use a rancilio silvia, the taste difference is massive, so much so that I'm not convinced that upgrading my machine will make a difference.

    As for the HG-1, it not the taste. I think it just might be more aesthetically pleasing in the kitchen along with less wastage.

  15. #15
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    As a matter of interest Davie...
    What is your preferred coffee drink?
    Espresso, Long Black, Lungo, etc...

    Mal.

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    I would say upgrade the grinder to get the most out of the expobar unless you mostly drink milky drinks

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    I agree with Mal, there's more out there than just the Mazzers.
    I've had a Kony and the latest Compak E10 side by side both at home and in commercial settings, the E10 beats the Kony in most areas; speed, cleanliness, less clumping, functionality (better adjustment with dose, pause function etc) and yes, taste too...that may simply be because of the fluffier grind = better distribution and less channeling. If you gave me $2k I'd be buying the Compak without a doubt.
    I've used Macaps but only the M4D, so no taste comparison, its digital functionality is fancier than the Mazzer but not as nice as the Compak. The worm drive on the Macaps are nice and accurate for espresso changes but going from espresso to something coarser will give you RSI, if you want to go from espresso to french press then rent Breaking Bad seasons 1-4 cos you'll be there a while!

  18. #18
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    Davie, are you considering a Kony-e or the doser model? Some of the replies above aren't specific to one

    or the other.

  19. #19
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    Hi Davie
    I have a Robur & a Lido 2 and I can't really tell the difference in flavour - and the Lido has 0% grind retention while the Robur has about 400%.
    If you really want to single dose - go the Lido for a comparable flavour to other big conicals. It is very different to a small flat burr grinder - and as Chris mentioned, if you find you don't like hand grinding you won't lose much on resale.
    But FWIW - when I've used the Robur for 2-3 doubles a day, I've never really found grind retention a flavour issue anyway with only a small purge each time. I don't subscribe to the "I can taste 0.1g of 15min old coffee polluting my perfect brew" camp anyway!
    Cheers Matt
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  20. #20
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    I have a motorized HG-1 that I’m very happy with apart from the static issues.
    I found an almost new Kony-e at auction that I kept for 2 months before selling due to its retention.
    It’s an excellent grinder but is better suited to a commercial environment and certainly not me as I alternate between DeCaf and regular with almost every cup.
    I may have kept it if we both used the same bean.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    I have a Robur & a Lido 2 and I can't really tell the difference in flavour - and the Lido has 0% grind retention while the Robur has about 400%.
    400% of nothing is.... Nothing
    Sorry, couldn't help it...

    Mal.
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    Thanks everyone for your input.

    I mainly drink milk based - lattes/flat whites and short macs. I do notice the taste difference even when I order a latte at the café to what I can make at home. I think the taste difference is mainly in the milk/Crema, almost more nutty in flavour.
    It is good to hear that the Lido is on par in terms of taste to the Robur/large conical's. As many of suggested, for the price it is a good way to gauge the difference in taste between conical and flat bur.

  23. #23
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    400% of nothing is.... Nothing
    Sorry, couldn't help it...

    Mal.
    Hmmm - got me scratching there Mal! Must be Monday morning!
    Guess what I meant was 400% retention for a 20g shot - so 80g retained in the Robur?
    Guess my dreams of astro-physics are now dashed once and for all! Good ole 2unit general maths
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  24. #24
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    I don't think the grinder will make that much of a difference especially in milk drinks. I'm all for big conical grinders and that the taste difference is noticable to me, but I do drink my coffee as short black. Adding milk, sugar etc though, will most likely cover the subtle differences.

    Are you using/comparing the same beans? You might want to replicate their recipe (talk to the barista). What you ultimately want to know - what's their coffee dose, how much output in how many seconds, temperature, diluted with how much milk etc.

    Also, do they mix a little milk with the crema (before pouring all the milk), how much foam do they stretch to with the milk etc? All these workflow details are minor but I find them make a much bigger difference to the taste than the grinder itself.
    Last edited by samuellaw178; 15th February 2016 at 12:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samuellaw178 View Post
    I don't think the grinder will make that much of a difference especially in milk drinks. I'm all for big conical grinders and that the taste difference is noticable to me, but I do drink my coffee as short black. Adding milk, sugar etc though, will most likely cover the subtle differences.

    Are you using/comparing the same beans? You might want to replicate their recipe (talk to the barista). What you ultimately want to know - what's their coffee dose, how much output in how many seconds, temperature, diluted with how much milk etc.

    Also, do they mix a little milk with the crema (before pouring all the milk), how much foam do they stretch to with the milk etc? All these workflow details are minor but I find them make a much bigger difference to the taste than the grinder itself.
    I have tried following their same"recipe". I had a good chat a while back with one of the barista's about temp, bean quantity, and time. This was back when they were running Synesso's. I use their espresso blend, which is the same as those they use.

    Anyone with a Kony could you measure the height with standard hopper for me. I've seen measurements of 630mm or 650mm. My cabinet is 660 mm, so it has to be able to fit under that. (The hopper would sit half under so I can still get the beans in)

    I think I am now considering either large conical or the Lido. At least with the Kony I wouldn't need to worry about upgrading again

  26. #26
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    I have no experience with large conicals, however speaking in general terms I'd say that the Lido would be a good choice. There's a chance that it might not be the grinder that's the issue here. So starting a trial so to speak with a cheaper option that is easily on sold lowers the risk a bit. It's what I'd be doing if I was in this situation.
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  27. #27
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    They are using Roburs and La Marzocco's.
    i find that I can't get to the normal "bliss" shot that our local coffee folk produce every morning with the same set up. I also note that of two places near each other (Cottesloe WA) same name, same set up, same beans one is always better even though the baristas swap over. I don't know how one machine is just so much better. That said I like my (modified) Kony-e and love it's even clumpless grinds. Every now and then I get very close, even so all my coffee is better than most normal places round about.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davie View Post
    At least with the Kony I wouldn't need to worry about upgrading again
    I'm sure you'll find a reason

  29. #29
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    I am sure a kony or similar would be an improvement but I am not sure the grinder is the problem. I had a mini e with supper jolly burrs and made better coffees then most cafes.

    Also I would look at other grinders apart from the mazzer. If I was going large conical I would probably get the compak however I would actually go large flat burr if I was in the market (e.g Mythos One or mahlkonig peak).

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    I had a mini e with supper jolly burrs...
    Me too. We built one out of curiosity after reading the chatter about this mod. It suffered from stall at up to 20% of grind attempts and the SJ burrs had to go.

    I still consider the mini-e to be one of the worst bang for buck grinders on the market. They're a long way from a favourite of mine.
    Last edited by TC; 17th February 2016 at 01:26 AM.
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  31. #31
    kbc
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    I'm about to make the move to a conical.
    Seems to me that the Kony, K10 and M7D are all close enough in performance. I'm leaning towards the M7D to save a few $

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly404 View Post
    I'm about to make the move to a conical.
    Seems to me that the Kony, K10 and M7D are all close enough in performance. I'm leaning towards the M7D to save a few $
    Hi Pauly.

    The K10 and M7D are both much quicker than a Kony- but all are plenty quick enough for home espresso.

    They're all great and I have no doubt you will love whichever you ultimately choose.
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  33. #33
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    Davie

    Towards the end of last year I was considering going to a Kony, but after checking out some options went for a Mythos One. The deciding factors for me were that there is virtually no mess at all, very little grind retention, incredible consistency and quality of grind. Certainly an excellent upgrade from my M4D. It's a bit pricier than the Kony, but a mate and I got a package deal from a site sponsor and I'm more than happy.

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    I've had a Kony-E for around 9 months and in my setup grind retention is an absolute non-issue. In fact I reckon I'm wasting far less coffee as it's so damn easy to dial-in a new bean, seems to have a larger sweet spot than any other grinder I've owned. Haven't made any mods, extremely happy with stock config.

    Previous grinder was a SJ-E and the improvement in all areas is more than worth the jump in price IMO.
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  35. #35
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    Update. Found a used Kony and went for it. Got it for a bargain and have spent all day cleaning it up. I ran one shot through it and just used the setting it was on and the shot was perfect, way better than I got with the mini.
    Unfortunately I ran out of beans and will now have to wait until next weekend now to "play".
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  36. #36
    kbc
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    Congrats Davie !



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