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Thread: Best flat burr grinder currently on the market?

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    Best flat burr grinder currently on the market?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    ..Excluding Ek43?
    Im close to buying a Mythos One mainly because they look great, have very low retention (why should I sacrifice a shot everytime I want to make a coffee) and Ive noticed a few local cafes have been swapping out Roburs for M1s.
    The local baristas cant tell me anything about differences in flavour profiles, both times ive asked I just get confused looks. While negotiating a price with a sales rep he was understandably chuffed at how much money the cafe was set to save in the upcoming year but Im also concerned about flavour.

    Is it the best grinder I can get for my money.

    Other forums tout the Ek43 as being the best. Second to that seems to be the Peak which doesnt seem to be commonly available here. The only price I can find online locally (in a different state) places it well above the Mythos in price. In fact its priced above the EK which seems crazy. The Peak is priced well below the Mythos overseas.

    So what do you guys think?

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    What do you have now?

    Mal.

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    A Lelit Combi

    I plan on buying an ECM Synchronika next month though, so ill need a new grinder.

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Is this for home use?

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    It sure will be.

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    EK43 for home?

    Better buy a dustpan and brush as well...

    For mine, a bag grinder is a ridiculous, impractical choice. You would be better to choose a grinder which is fit for purpose.
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    I wouldn't want an EK43 (in fact Ive actually ruled it out although I know some people do run them at home) but im seriously considering a Mythos One.

    Just asking about competitors in the same tier- for example the Peak.

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    If you wish, sure...

    Most (all?) of the technology in this grinder is geared at very busy cafes- i.e irrelevant at home...

    It's a good thing to be mindful that an extra $2000 or so spent on a "better" grinder when something at $1k will do the job represents one heck of a lot of "retained" coffee...

    We have the internet and barista personalities to thank for creating the need for gear which is primarily marketing schpiel and irrelevant in the home.
    Last edited by TC; 23rd April 2016 at 08:15 PM. Reason: tpyo ::-)
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    Ha. Its true that marketing stuff is somehow more believable when you attach the title of world barista champion to your name. Add a guy who wears turtle necks and often presents lots of graphs in his powerpoint presentations... Its almost a licence to print money.

    I guess im just as gullible as the next guy sometimes.

    So theres no flavour difference in coffees produced using one of the grinders listed above and say an S-Automatik 64?

    Id love to find out for myself but there arent any places in Brisbane that stock all these grinders,in particular the Peak that ive read a lot of glowing reviews on.

    Im trying to find out as much as I can.

  10. #10
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    To be perfectly honest and if you can't find a retailer in Brisbane who sells the sort of stuff you're looking for, why not spend the small amount of cash it costs these days and head to Sydney or Melbourne after setting up some time with proprietors to give you some hands on demos with a variety of high class hardware....

    Would be money well spent and a tiny fraction of the cost of the hardware you're considering...

    Mal.
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    Understand the WHY in depth and you will make a more logical decision for your own circumstance / preference.
    A lot of people push, spruke and knock things without having ever experimented and measured to find out the WHY for themselves.

    If you like traditional darker espresso roasts ( low acid, heavy body and well developed caramels ) that require shorter shots with higher TDS and lower extraction yields a 50 to 65mm flat burr grinder will make great espresso and be useful for manual brewing methods. If you only drink espresso and have a well developed palate a large conical MIGHT offer you a point of difference worth the extra $. Go to a retailer and do a blind taste test, with a coffee you are very familiar with. Otherwise you are just contributing the psycho babble BS that is rampant.

    On the flip side, the current trends in " speciality coffee " are toward different styles of roasts which are significantly lighter and much less soluble. For espresso these need finer grinds / longer shots to achieve the much higher extraction yields required for them to taste sweet and balanced, otherwise you end up with battery acid. You simply can not do this WELL with a conical grinder due the large range of different particles sizes, you under extract the large and over extract the small, which tastes terrible.

    Large flat burr grinders like the EK 43 or many other bulk grinders like ditting, compak etc offer a much narrower range of particle sizes meaning one can really push the extraction further with really fine grinds before getting the undesirable characteristics from over extraction, no matter what the brew method you are using espresso or filter. Regular large flat burr grinders such as Mythos, K30, Major etc can still do a good job with lighter roasts for espresso.

    When done right, super light roasts that are properly developed and extracted by someone with the knowledge and skills to get it right can produce a VERY REAL simple sugar sweetness that is loaded with volatile aromatics and it is refreshingly delicious and satisfying.

    I have no solid preferences, tastes change with weather and mood. Understand the coffee and equipment you have in front of you.
    Last edited by Steve82; 24th April 2016 at 04:37 PM.
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    +1 @Steve82, very well said

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    Actually if you read you read a little of Pergeratorial, one of the reasons he chose a planar over conical is that there is more variation in the conical- but Perghaps, that's actually a good thing.

    Whether someone can taste the difference is one thing and the fact that the majority of Aussies still drink milk based is a whole other kettle 'o coffee- so to speak. Bottom like is that conicals are 101% irrelevant to most.

    My preference is black and I can taste and enjoy the difference.
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    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
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    I can definitely taste the difference even in milk based drinks. Others can't and that's fine.

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    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    My understanding was that a more consistent grind is one of the major benefits of a conical. The Titan grinder project is my source.
    I'm happy to be proven wrong/learn. What's your source Steve?
    Thanks

    I agree dodgy x. Personal experience is my source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    My understanding was that a more consistent grind is one of the major benefits of a conical. The Titan grinder project is my source.
    I'm happy to be proven wrong/learn. What's your source Steve?
    Thanks
    Consistency of what? how the grounds are delivered? clumping? taste? TGP is getting quite outdated. There are many grinders big and small that perform very consistently, a lot depends on the user.

    My post was not about consistency of function, it was about variance of grind particle SIZE and DISTRIBUTION of those different sizes. It is not about one being " better " than the other, it is about different types of equipment producing different things for different purposes.

    My sources are varied, other forums, various high profile coffee pros like Perger, Socratic Coffee and of course actually testing lots of different grinders over 1000s of roasts / experimenting with different profiles and extraction techniques, like in the Rafino thread sieving out / selecting certain size of grind particles to achieve certain things.
    Tasting and conversing with real people who are using different equipment to produce different styles of coffee.

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Cited source material would not only be interesting but it would allow others to make decisions based on what is important to them...

    Mal.

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Unless you are making multiple coffees at one time, then a manual grinder will get you large burrs (conical if you want), very slow, cool grinding, and save you $thousands.

    Greg
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    IMO the ECM Synchronika deserves a big conical Any of the big conicals will do a great job.

    If you haven't already done so, read "the Titan Grinder Project"
    Sorry Paul. I'm calling sales pitch on that one. In my opinion, what a purchaser of any machine needs is the right grinder for their requirements and budget.

    Titan grinder project?

    Meh...Rubbish when it was published and the rubbish certainly didn't compress into diamonds. Only methane resulted.

    No doubt that planar delivers more consistent grind size. You only have to look at it. At the warehouse we have a Compak E10 beside a Rocket Fausto. When dosed identically to deliver an identical pour, the E10 looks much coarser than the Fausto. No sieve required. Regardless, I'll take the E10 for black and I like what both of them do under milk.
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    Senior Member skidquinn's Avatar
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    All I can add is to reiterate what others have said re. trying before purchasing. I personally own both conical and flat burr and am having this battle at the moment as my wife won't let me keep both. The difference in taste is actually quite pronounced in my opinion but I don't think one is 'better' than other...... Simply different.
    FWIW I'm leaning towards selling my conical at this stage. I like the flavour result of the conical more than flat burr but the $$$ I would get on a sale of it outweigh this currently (to fund upgrade from Silvia)...... Ask me tomorrow and I may give you a different answer though.....
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    I'll second skidquinn's comment. I own a Mythos and a Kony, when I first bought the mythos I had them both sitting next to each other and yes there is a difference in flavour but they were both still great!

    The Kony is now getting dusty and been kicked off the bench. The only reason is that I am constantly roasting different beans to different profiles and the fact that I can change beans and only need to purge a pinch of beans, maybe 6-10 beans. Also same goes when changing the grind, I only need to waste a few grams of coffee before I see the change in the portafilter.

    Functionality wise I think the Mythos belts every grinder out of the park with the retention issue addressed. Still don't forget the buck stops at the person making the coffee not so much the equipment, I've had many miserable shots on the absolute pinnacle of equipment (Slayers, Strada, Synesso etc) with a large majority of the blame going onto the barista. I can still pull amazing shots from my Mazzer Mini or even Breville smart grinder but as I said the fact there's bigger all retention is the win for me.
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  22. #22
    htb
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    The Mythos is a great grinder. Probably what I will get next. I was holding out to try the peak but after seeing the Australian price will give it a miss.
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    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendogs View Post
    I'll second skidquinn's comment. I own a Mythos and a Kony, when I first bought the mythos I had them both sitting next to each other and yes there is a difference in flavour but they were both still great!

    The Kony is now getting dusty and been kicked off the bench. The only reason is that I am constantly roasting different beans to different profiles and the fact that I can change beans and only need to purge a pinch of beans, maybe 6-10 beans. Also same goes when changing the grind, I only need to waste a few grams of coffee before I see the change in the portafilter.

    Functionality wise I think the Mythos belts every grinder out of the park with the retention issue addressed. Still don't forget the buck stops at the person making the coffee not so much the equipment, I've had many miserable shots on the absolute pinnacle of equipment (Slayers, Strada, Synesso etc) with a large majority of the blame going onto the barista. I can still pull amazing shots from my Mazzer Mini or even Breville smart grinder but as I said the fact there's bigger all retention is the win for me.


    Brendogs- I can take that nasty old dust collecting Kony off your hands if it would be of assistance!

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendogs View Post
    . Still don't forget the buck stops at the person making the coffee not so much the equipment, I've had many miserable shots on the absolute pinnacle of equipment (Slayers, Strada, Synesso etc) with a large majority of the blame going onto the barista.

    Yes I see that most McCafes use Mythos grinders now and it certainly doesn't help them turn out anything other than pure garbage. Quality coffee and a competent operator are still the two most important variables.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Sorry Paul. I'm calling sales pitch on that one. In my opinion, what a purchaser of any machine needs is the right grinder for their requirements and budget.

    Titan grinder project?

    Meh...Rubbish when it was published and the rubbish certainly didn't compress into diamonds. Only methane resulted.

    Regardless, I'll take the E10 for black
    So basically, you are saying you prefer a conical?

  26. #26
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    Folks- I'm not seeing many top end roasters offering flat burr grinders with their sales contracts. I had assumed that was because conical gives superior taste. If they dont why do the roasting companies fork out the extra cash for conicals? Just curious

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobeanornottobean View Post
    So basically, you are saying you prefer a conical?
    Yes I do, but not necessarily under milk... That would have been obvious had you chosen to quote the entire sentence.

    I like what they both do and am fortunate to have the opportunity to choose when I'm at work....and I do depending on whim, the day of week and which way the wind is blowing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Yes I do, but not necessarily under milk... That would have been obvious had you chosen to quote the entire sentence.

    I like what they both do and am fortunate to have the opportunity to choose when I'm at work....and I do depending on whim, the day of week and which way the wind is blowing.
    The point being it sounds a lot less like sales pitch when you yourself prefer a conical, albeit for black coffee.

    The fact that it is hard/er to tell the difference under milk is almost a moot point wouldn't you say? Thus why I didn't see any need to include it here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobeanornottobean View Post
    The point being it sounds a lot less like sales pitch when you yourself prefer a conical, albeit for black coffee.
    Here's my sales pitch..

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    In my opinion, what a purchaser of any machine needs is the right grinder for their requirements and budget.
    ...the point being that I don't try to push large expensive conicals onto those who patently neither need nor want them.

    My interest is in providing potential purchasers with pros and cons to allow them to make their own choices. For those wanting a sales pitch, I refer them to their local car yard.
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    The EG-1 is another option, EG-1 | LWW

    Personally I suspect burr alignment often plays a greater part in the end result in the cup than the differences between flat and conical burrs.

    Our scientific understanding of what goes on in the coffee making process continues to develop and challenge the assumptions various experts have made about all the elements that go into a great cup of coffee. We used to think fines were the enemy, certain baristas even sieved out the fines, now research suggests the fines are the key to great coffee!

    If you really find money is no object then the Titus is your grinder, they run from about US $5K-$10K depending on finish! Titus-Grinding Highend Kaffee- und Espressomhlen You can find a few threads and images about the Titus if you use a bit of google fu.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    The flat burr versus conical issue reminds me very much of the old direct drive v belt drive turntable debate, allowing that both turntables were of high quality,to the average audiophile either produced very acceptable sound, however those with sufficiently deep pockets, who sprung for the very best of either drive type, always expected their choice to sound superior and of course they were never disappointed, how could a custom turntable I just payed $15000 for not sound better than an $800 of the shelf model.

    The truth is the difference to the average listener was negligible, I suspect the very same principle applies to grinders, I paid an arm and a leg for it so I have to be able to discern a difference in the cup, and of course, I can!

    Human nature is a strange beast.
    Last edited by Yelta; 25th April 2016 at 11:26 AM.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Have to say you've been beating the drum pretty loud over the past weeks Paul, I think Chris;s response was predictable.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
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    But isn't it true that only conicals can produce Godshots?
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    But isn't it true that only conicals can produce Godshots?
    If you believe that to be so, then it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    I recommend leaving interpretation of the intent of my posts to the community Chris.
    Snobs, I'm sure you're finding the back and forth amusing !!!
    As always Paul, I'll be leaving my interpretation of all CS posts entirely to myself.
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    But isn't it true that only conicals can produce Godshots?
    Hahahaaaa!
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    image.jpg.............
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    Ok- Back on topic

    Perger has contributed to a new study breaking down grinding and specifically mentions the Mythos writing “I’ve never really been a fan of the results with the Mythos grinder’s heating feature, and this experiment is an excellent explanation as to why”.
    The Grinder Paper: Explained - Matt Perger

    Its nice to have new data coming in.
    Does this study change anyones opinion on the topic of best flat burr grinder on the market, excluding the EK43?

    That Sette might be looking better by the minute.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxy24 View Post
    Does this study change anyones opinion on the topic of best flat burr grinder on the market, excluding the EK43?
    Not in the least, an encyclopaedia full of words will have no impact of my perception of whats in my cup, and I suspect little affect on the way people brew the stuff.

    Guess a (study) like this appeals to some of the nerds among us.

    Logga also posted this link about 4 hours ago. http://coffeesnobs.com.au/general-co...explained.html

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    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnhemR View Post
    The EG-1 is another option, EG-1 | LWW

    Personally I suspect burr alignment often plays a greater part in the end result in the cup than the differences between flat and conical burrs.

    Our scientific understanding of what goes on in the coffee making process continues to develop and challenge the assumptions various experts have made about all the elements that go into a great cup of coffee. We used to think fines were the enemy, certain baristas even sieved out the fines, now research suggests the fines are the key to great coffee!

    If you really find money is no object then the Titus is your grinder, they run from about US $5K-$10K depending on finish! Titus-Grinding Highend Kaffee- und Espressomhlen You can find a few threads and images about the Titus if you use a bit of google fu.
    I like the Roman numerals on the regulator. Seems reminiscent of the HG-1?

  41. #41
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    G'day Marxy,

    I think there is probably merit in Matt's ideas on this one, but the findings do need to be viewed in context. Home users are not in the 100kg+/week demographic and it's probably a once a year (or never) that you'd run 10, 20 or even 50 shots back to back- so heat is rarely (if ever) an issue. We do need to consider this stuff whist being mindful of our actual usage pattern. We for one will not be providing low O2, pre-measured doses of liquid nitrogen cooled beans.

    Whilst there may be reasons that some of us want a Mythos/Peak/EK/whatever the next big craze is, fact remains that a good small commercial is more than adequate for the overwhelming majority of home users. You have the means? Sure, buy whatever your heart chooses this week, but be mindful that Yelta probably nailed it in the comments above re turntables.

    My experiences when training continue to reinforce the fact that given good, fresh coffee and adequate equipment, the most significant contribution to cup quality comes from the consistency of the operator, not another $2k blown on a new "XYZ" because some bloke in the ether reckons it's the holy grail.

    I too am curious about the Sette and if it will hold together, it should provide another good alternative for the home user.

    Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    G'day Marxy,

    Whilst there may be reasons that some of us want a Mythos/Peak/EK/whatever the next big craze is, fact remains that a good small commercial is more than adequate for the overwhelming majority of home users. You have the means? Sure, buy whatever your heart chooses this week, but be mindful that Yelta probably nailed it in the comments above re turntables.

    My experiences when training continue to reinforce the fact that given good, fresh coffee and adequate equipment, the most significant contribution to cup quality comes from the consistency of the operator, not another $2k blown on a new "XYZ" because some bloke in the ether reckons it's the holy grail.

    Chris
    Yeah they have lost me with this one....liquid nitrogen freezing. I certainly won't be freezing my coffee in any form any time soon. Strikes me as grandiose with no real world applications to improving quality.

    In addition to the home scenario, there are even more of these " popular grinders " showing up in cafes and when questioned the owners or baristas have ZERO knowledge or even an idea as to the what / why they have an EK43 in their cafe for odd SO espresso / Decaf use. They then proceed to try and pull faux ristrettos with a darker roast ground using the EK and " think " that it is mothers milk, except that it tastes REALLY sour and REALLY roasty. Perfect example of being over sold based on hype, where they would be much better off, especially in low volume application with a regular flat burr grinder, hell even something like an M4D would be better suited for purpose.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    But isn't it true that only conicals can produce Godshots?
    NO... not true in the slightest, so I'll just assume you were taking the piss

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    image.jpg.......
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    Smart ass 😜
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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Don't think it does any harm to bait a hook now and again...
    Sometimes these discussions can become way too serious...

    Mal.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    A contrarian view will always provoke an interesting response.

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    Damn- that was even more entertaining than the weevils.....

  49. #49
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    I have the Mythos 1 for home use and before that I had the Mahlkonig Vario, what a difference, can't fault the Mythos, she is a beautiful piece of technology paired up with my Rancilio Silvia v3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    G'day Marxy,

    I think there is probably merit in Matt's ideas on this one,
    The really big idea in Matt's paper as discovered by their research, was that 20 deg C was a critical temperature for the beans, so its not about volume and heat generated by the grinder as previously thought, just ambient temperature beans in many environments will be greatly affected in terms of particle size (fines).

    For the home user simply keeping your beans in the fridge may well give you much more consistent results and improved outcome in the cup.

    While a lot of this research is in the realm of complete nerds, the understandings that spring from such studies do filter down and inform the less nerdy amongst us.

    I think there is a certain point with grinders that makes a big difference, but from there the rule of diminishing returns applies.

    But there are a lot of other factors as you point out, well roasted, fresh coffee, a consistent operator who understands the relationship between dose, yield and time - and knows how to 'surf' them to tune in a roast to suit their palate. No amount of money will buy you great coffee, consistently if you dont understand the process and how to fine tune it - you will just get crap coffee made on very expensive equipment, and the world is full of cafes that do that already!!
    Dimal, Yelta, Steve82 and 1 others like this.



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