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Thread: Differences between flat burr grinders large vs small etc

  1. #1
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    Differences between flat burr grinders large vs small etc

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I currently have a Macap M4D which I am using with a La Marzocco GS3. I am thinking about upgrading grinders.
    I have just read the huge post about Conical vs flat burr grinders. The message that I got from the post is that conical grinders are better at extracting fruit and more of the high end acidic flavours.
    I prefer sweetness and a lot of aroma but do not like acid or fruit. Hence I am considering staying with a flat burr grinder.

    I am wondering if I stay with a flat burr grinder how much difference does burr size and burr design affect taste in the cup.
    I am looking at the Compac F8 or the mahlkoenig K30 or even a mahlkoenig Peak.

    I am wondering if anyone has any experience with these grinders or thoughts and could tell me how much variation it taste to expect between these grinders.
    Also would I expect to notice a taste improvement compared to my current Macap M4D?
    Thanks
    cNc

  2. #2
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    I went from a K3 to an A8. Can't say if there is any flavour difference, if there is I haven't noticed it.

    But I have noticed the grinds not having any clumps and being quite fluffy in comparison. It's also quicker, but I believe the M4D is pretty quick.

    We can swap of you like!

    Cheers

  3. #3
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    With quality planar burr grinders, larger burrs generally means more speed since the peripheral speed of the burrs increases with diameter. If you believe that the M4D is too slow (surprising) then the next step up would be an 83mm burr-set grinder. There are a couple with intermediate burr sizes but this is the next standard size. Delivery speed is very high but hard to imagine the necessity in a home situation - But of course, that has never stopped any of us Snobs...

    Mal.
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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    I've got a k3 but the 8 second grind time of a fausto has given me serious grinder envy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    With quality planar burr grinders, larger burrs generally means more speed since the peripheral speed of the burrs increases with diameter. If you believe that the M4D is too slow (surprising) then the next step up would be an 83mm burr-set grinder. There are a couple with intermediate burr sizes but this is the next standard size. Delivery speed is very high but hard to imagine the necessity in a home situation - But of course, that has never stopped any of us Snobs...

    Mal.
    The speed is not a problem with the M4D. I get a double shot out in about 10 seconds and in the home environment that is good.
    My main aim is to improve the flavour of my coffees. Recently I had some made through a EK43 and I was amazed by the difference.
    the EK 43 is a very large flat burr grinder and I was wondering if the large flat burrs were responsible for the improved flavour profile.
    The Compaq F8 has 83 mm flat burs and I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts as to whether that would improve flavour profiles.
    I initially upgraded my Mazza Mini to the M4D several years ago. I got increased speed, electronic dosing but the taste was the same or possibly marginally worse than the mini
    cNc

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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    "MOTOR 730 W WITH FUN"

    That sounds awesome!

  7. #7
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeNcake View Post
    Recently I had some made through a EK43 and I was amazed by the difference...
    Hi cNc,

    My thoughts- In a home situation, I'd recommend E series Compak over the F series as the adjustment on the F series is very slow. Ok perhaps if you are going to use the grinder for espresso only, otherwise irritating. I view F series as a one machine grinder.

    As for your experience with the EK43, unless it's a same machine, same barista, same coffee, same extraction scenario, your conclusions may warrant a rethink...

    Chris
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  8. #8
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    What's he difference between the E and F series? They both look like electronic control doserless models?

    Cheers

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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Thanks for that.

    Cheers

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeNcake View Post
    The speed is not a problem with the M4D. I get a double shot out in about 10 seconds and in the home environment that is good.
    My main aim is to improve the flavour of my coffees. Recently I had some made through a EK43 and I was amazed by the difference.
    the EK 43 is a very large flat burr grinder and I was wondering if the large flat burrs were responsible for the improved flavour profile.
    The Compaq F8 has 83 mm flat burs and I wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts as to whether that would improve flavour profiles.
    I initially upgraded my Mazza Mini to the M4D several years ago. I got increased speed, electronic dosing but the taste was the same or possibly marginally worse than the mini
    cNc
    G'day coffeeNcake

    ... or you could go with the EK43's little brother - Mahlkonig Vario. Still the best home espresso grinder I know of. I liked my gen2 so much I bought a second one... My older one has done well over 150kg with no apparent burr wear (ceramic is brilliant for that), so long term domestic use should be a given. I suppose one would expect no less from a Swiss made Ditting...

    Dimal is correct in terms of speed, however the faster the grinding process the more the heat buildup in the grounds tends to bork the flavour to a degree (not always, however that is worth a few pages, not a short post). That is also (at least partially) why the better grinders (i.e. Mazzer Major, EK43, Ditting) deal with that carefully (naturally, at some extra hit in the wallet).

    Having also used the EK43 and its "great grandfather" (same basic design from the mid 80's), comparing either with the Vario is intriguing. Within the Turkish to "mid espresso" range - not much difference (I arguably / possibly prefer the Vario as it is easier to fine tune and just may be a whisker better flavour). Go coarser and the two big beasts are way, way better - as is almost any other grinder out there (i.e. Super Jolly, Breville Smartgrinder etc etc). BTW, the Vario has a steel burr option for coarser grinds if that floats your boat.

    Hope this helps

    TampIt


    PS: Please be aware, the Baratza is a parallel import, the Mahlkonig is the official one "outside US". Also, there are now three Varios. The original one is a baby step forward from the pack (mainly grind retention and adjustability). The gen2 / 3 is a massive improvement (no comparison at all in a taste test, very different mechanism from the first one). The gen3 is now out - I currently have a friend's one here. I suspect the gen 2 & 3 to be identical apart from the gen3's heavy metal portafilter holder. Taste is identical, all other parts look the same. They weigh the same "sans p/f holder" The "3" may be a whisker quieter. None of the 2 or 3's clump, have static, throw grinds or do anything else antisocial that lesser grinders fill up CS posts with.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    G'day coffeeNcake

    ... or you could go with the EK43's little brother - Mahlkonig Vario. ...

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    ...
    None of the 2 or 3's clump, have static, throw grinds or do anything else antisocial that lesser grinders fill up CS posts with.
    Unless you consider premature drive shaft failure, dodgy adjustment levers, or filling the motor itself with grinds antisocial.

    I suggest if you do consider this grinder you read as many threads as possible and talk to a range of people about them. I have one and it has good points but I wouldn't buy one again as there are better options for similar price.
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnandcass View Post
    Unless you consider premature drive shaft failure, dodgy adjustment levers, or filling the motor itself with grinds antisocial.

    I suggest if you do consider this grinder you read as many threads as possible and talk to a range of people about them. I have one and it has good points but I wouldn't buy one again as there are better options for similar price.
    The motor on a gen2 or 3 is a completely sealed Ditting modular unit. Physically impossible to get grounds in it. Maybe you are talking about the earlier version?

    TampIt
    PS: If you have a dead one I would pay for postage just to see what happened to it. I come from a family of engineers and most "dead stuff" is easy to fix (unless it has melted / burnt down). Oh, I include a number of expensive commercial grinders in that list...

  13. #13
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Oh, I include a number of expensive commercial grinders in that list...
    Don't be shy... please enlighten us
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    Don't be shy... please enlighten us
    Thought it had been a while since the last vario ad. New advertising mob needed though. They just keep rolling out the same tired old thing every 2 or 3 weeks.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    The motor on a gen2 or 3 is a completely sealed Ditting modular unit. Physically impossible to get grounds in it. Maybe you are talking about the earlier version?

    TampIt
    ...
    Two "gen 2" examples here...
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/grinders/4...ley-noise.html
    Vinitasse likes this.



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