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Thread: Seems Legit...NOT

  1. #1
    Member IrisGanache's Avatar
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    Wink Seems Legit...NOT

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    fake niche.JPG


    It seems there are some fakies doing the rounds.
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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    And yet, heaps of punters fall for that load of rubbish...

    Mal.
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    The risks of outsourcing your manufacturing to China.
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    Member IrisGanache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    And yet, heaps of punters fall for that load of rubbish...

    Mal.

    Yes.

    Everyone wants a bargain.
    It was posted on a La Pav lever FB group.



    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    The risks of outsourcing your manufacturing to China.
    Apparently people have been receiving a cheap Chinese knock off of a Chinese product.
    So some must have fallen for it.

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    The risks of outsourcing your manufacturing to China.
    Careful! Not everything made in China is cheap rubbish. Their factories are tooled up to produce high quality produce if the wholesale customer is prepared to pay for it.
    Once, it was low labour costs that allowed cheaper products but not any more. Now, it's more about economies of scale, cheap raw material sources and more lax quality control
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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Agree Flynn, poor quality control is probably the number one issue.
    Even the Chinese are now outsourcing to cheaper labour cost countries, but they do have a gigantic market and over the last decade they have focused
    on supplying themselves first as a priority, and feeding their largely US customers second...with mixed results.
    Their marketing is full of unscrupulous, unrestrained exaggerations and outright lies.
    But they are where Japan was in the 1960s when the Japanese would get hold of an Italian car, disassemle it to nuts and bolts, and copy every component to make their own cars.
    Look at them now.

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    Seems Legit...NOT

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus View Post
    Careful! Not everything made in China is cheap rubbish. Their factories are tooled up to produce high quality produce if the wholesale customer is prepared to pay for it.
    Agreed but not the point I was making.

    The risk I was referring to, involved with outsourcing your production to China is theft of your designs and IP.

    There’s been countless cases of this. Sadly, Kickstarter designers have been particularly vulnerable. They get their project funded, choose a factory in China for their full scale production, and within months, and sometimes even weeks, there’s exact knockoffs appearing.

    Not saying that’s what happened in this specific case though. Could just be a straight out scam.
    Last edited by herzog; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrisGanache View Post
    It seems there are some fakies doing the rounds.
    I doubt there is even a knock-off product. I bet (someone else's money) it is just a scam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robusto View Post
    Their marketing is full of unscrupulous, unrestrained exaggerations and outright lies.
    Sounds a bit like our financial services industry

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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    Agreed but missed the point I was making.

    The risk involved with outsourcing your production to China is theft of your designs and IP. .
    Well I infered wrongly sorry, but it isn't just China that has stolen IP. Where was that fake Rolex or Vuitton handbag made? Not necessarily China.
    The Japanese did it in the 60s when they were on the way to becoming a manufacturing giant. In fact, it has probably been going on for ages (millenia).

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    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Whenever I hear of people entrusting their manufacture to China I think back to toy manufacturer Mattel's experience. They supplied the child safe paint which was to be used on one of their product lines. The Chinese manufacturer sold off the child safe paint and substituted a low cost leaded paint for children's toys. That's the mentality in a nutshell. This was some years ago but the profit at any cost mentality still lives on in China.

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    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in...year-cnbc.html

    “but China remains the world’s principal IP infringer across all types of IP theft, according to a spokesman for the IP Commission, which estimates up $600 billion annually in cost to the U.S. economy from these actions.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Whenever I hear of people entrusting their manufacture to China I think back to toy manufacturer Mattel's experience.
    Yes. I was disappointed to see Niche end up there. I guess it's all about bucks in the bank and greed in margins- so often at the expense of local industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    Whenever I hear of people entrusting their manufacture to China I think back to toy manufacturer Mattel's experience. They supplied the child safe paint which was to be used on one of their product lines. The Chinese manufacturer sold off the child safe paint and substituted a low cost leaded paint for children's toys. That's the mentality in a nutshell. This was some years ago but the profit at any cost mentality still lives on in China.
    Why Mattel Apologized to China - TIME

    "On Friday, Mattel's executive vice president for worldwide operations, Thomas Debrowski, met with the Chinese product safety chief Li Changjiang, to apologize for the company's own weak safety controls. "Our reputation has been damaged lately by these recalls," Mr. Debrowski told Li. "And Mattel takes full responsibility for these recalls and apologizes personally to you, the Chinese people, and all of our customers who received the toys."

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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Some Chinese companies which go into partnership with manufacturers from other countries do steal the original design.
    Take Honda...which manufactured their generators at the Kipor factory in China. There was a disagreement, Honda pulled out, but Kipor kept producing the same design gennies under their own name. (I have 2 of them and one came in handy during yesterday's blackout).
    China has brought confusion and deceit to leather goods. "Genuine PU leather." PU=polyurethane, which is not leather. Or "genuine leather" which is actually PU or pvc. Or "genuine leather" which is leather fibres pressed and glued together to "make belts, coated with PVC or PU which last 6 weeks if you're lucky.
    "Made in Italy" leather handbags actually made in China.
    Rollex watches made in China and definitely not Rolex with one "l".
    Murano glassware made not by craftsmen in Venice, but by Chinese in China -- who coped the design from tourist photos (now not allowed in the Murano showroom for this very reason).
    The list goes on...
    What's wrong with this?
    It's bloody dishonest. Full stop.
    It's theft.
    The quality is probably not as good as the original.
    It deprives the original companies of profit earned from good practices and investment in R&D.
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robusto View Post
    Some Chinese companies which go into partnership with manufacturers from other countries do steal the original design.
    Take Honda...which manufactured their generators at the Kipor factory in China. There was a disagreement, Honda pulled out, but Kipor kept producing the same design gennies under their own name. (I have 2 of them and one came in handy during yesterday's blackout).
    China has brought confusion and deceit to leather goods. "Genuine PU leather." PU=polyurethane, which is not leather. Or "genuine leather" which is actually PU or pvc. Or "genuine leather" which is leather fibres pressed and glued together to "make belts, coated with PVC or PU which last 6 weeks if you're lucky.
    "Made in Italy" leather handbags actually made in China.
    Rollex watches made in China and definitely not Rolex with one "l".
    Murano glassware made not by craftsmen in Venice, but by Chinese in China -- who coped the design from tourist photos (now not allowed in the Murano showroom for this very reason).
    The list goes on...
    What's wrong with this?
    It's bloody dishonest. Full stop.
    It's theft.
    The quality is probably not as good as the original.
    It deprives the original companies of profit earned from good practices and investment in R&D.
    Actually a fair percentage of most genuine Rolex watches is made in China and Asian countries.

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    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    My post was about Chinese counterfeits including counterfeit rolex watches.

    But irrespective, from the rolex website:

    "With all its operations carried out in Switzerland, Rolex is able to maintain complete control over quality. Work takes place over four sites, where the essential components are designed and made. From the casting of the gold to the crafting of the minutest spring and pivot, and from the manufacture of the casings to final assembly, every step of the process is completed in house."
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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Agree...

    All aspects of a genuine Rolex watch are manufactured wholly in Switzerland...
    https://www.rolex.com/about-rolex-wa...itzerland.html

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeco_user View Post
    I doubt there is even a knock-off product. I bet (someone else's money) it is just a scam.
    From what I read after it seems purchasers and sent some cheapo thing that resembles a grinder. They then want their money back but of course they have to first send back what they were sent which costs more in shipping than what they paid for the item so they don't bother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Agree...

    All aspects of a genuine Rolex watch are manufactured wholly in Switzerland...
    https://www.rolex.com/about-rolex-wa...itzerland.html

    Mal.
    This statement is not entirely accurate. The swiss mark of swiss made has become rather lax over time. Several small components do come from china. However the assembly and large castings are in house from all watches marked swiss made. Springs, levers, balance wheels and several other components do come from overseas. There is no regulating regarding them.

    QC in China is terrible. They can knock a product fast and economies of scale mean they make more than enough cheaply to justify poor quality standards and an increased QC failure rate. None if this is high tech manufacturing, Please a coffee grinder does not qualify as equipment made to high tolerances.

    The scientific equipment and medical devices manufacturers are dealing with the dramas manufacturing there brings. For most companies it has involved heavy investment into their own factories. Equipment that is truly high tech and built to stringent quality standards have had poorer durability since moving manufacturing to China. Companies are aware, customers are aware, but again, it's cheaper for them at this time.

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    So, Rolex are lying...

    Mal.

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    Caffinator, would love a source on Rolex sourcing from China, always thought it was a reaction allowing for watches to be called Swiss is movement assembled there and bulk of materials made in Switzerland. I have not yet come across anything solid. There has been whispers of Omega sourcing the bracelets and some other minor parts from China, but not Rolex?

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    Who is this copycat Caffinator?
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    Oops, it was prior to getting caffeinated - took my first hit of Sulawesi Blue... after posting.

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    After Seiko, Rolex probably make more of their watches than anyone else in the industry, I would believe they are made in Switzerland. That said, there was a big furore in the watch industry a few years back when the percentage 'by value' needed to use the label 'Swiss Made' went from 51% to 60%, not quite what you think when you read Swiss Made. Especially true when the final casing using Swiss labour rates allows a huge percentage to be made in a lower cost region, potentially the whole watch. - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN1E01YT

    Interesting fact Rolex is 100% owned by a charity which some wonder what it does with it's profit (the beauty of Swiss tax laws!) and while the dealers always tell you there is a shortage, they actually make something like 800,000 every year.
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    A mate of mine used to work in Thailand for a watch movement factory. One of the biggest as well. I remember my first real watch was the 90's Seamaster Pro, we had a coffee shop opposite the office of Swatchgroup and were always chatting to them. One day the staff told me my watch cost very little to make, I was horrified as at the time I spent 1 month's salary on it!

    My take having been living in HK now for 20 years is that you can get whatever quality you want from China, it is up to you as the buyer to ensure it meets your standards. With regards our industry I would say all stainless steel portafilters, and probably pumps are made in China. All big name filter baskets and screens are made in China, if you ignore IMS then all would be done there. Probably a lot of the stainless group castings and steam valves are made there as well, shipped back to Italy and voila Made in Italy. Italy is good and inexpensive for chromed brass, China for stainless investment cast.

    If you look at the tool market, at say the infamous USA store Harbour Freight it is generally accepted that the items are cheap and not well made. Is it a case that Harbour Freight are being fleeced by their manufacturers? most probably not, it is what they have asked for and received - although I am sure they work like crazy to stay on top of that standard as well.


    Regarding IP issues, China has tightened up a lot in recent years. Almost everytime now with a new supplier we have to prove we own our trademark and brand. We have successfully removed copies from Taobao - something we have never managed to achieve on Amazon. I look back 10 years now when the first copies of the cafelat stuff came out, a US company was the first, then the Italians and then the Australians. If you look at the silicone seals we make, you will find a US company has copied them exactly, even using the exact same colour codes as mine!

    I'll leave you all with a story my mate who manuf. cookwares told me. He make saucepans for an Italian brand, but ship the handle and pan in separate boxes. The Italian company merely rivets the handle in place and Made in Italy.
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    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Similar story makes the rounds in the bike industry: cheap Chinese carbon frame + expensive Italian paint job = "Made in Italy" under the 60% value rule.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Similar story makes the rounds in the bike industry: cheap Chinese carbon frame + expensive Italian paint job = "Made in Italy" under the 60% value rule.
    Not my Pinarello

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    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Sorry I don't understand emojis, I cannot tell whether you are being facetious or not.

    If not, you should check out Carbotec Industrial.
    Last edited by Lyrebird; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffinator View Post
    This statement is not entirely accurate. The swiss mark of swiss made has become rather lax over time. Several small components do come from china. However the assembly and large castings are in house from all watches marked swiss made. Springs, levers, balance wheels and several other components do come from overseas. There is no regulating regarding them.

    QC in China is terrible. They can knock a product fast and economies of scale mean they make more than enough cheaply to justify poor quality standards and an increased QC failure rate. None if this is high tech manufacturing, Please a coffee grinder does not qualify as equipment made to high tolerances.

    The scientific equipment and medical devices manufacturers are dealing with the dramas manufacturing there brings. For most companies it has involved heavy investment into their own factories. Equipment that is truly high tech and built to stringent quality standards have had poorer durability since moving manufacturing to China. Companies are aware, customers are aware, but again, it's cheaper for them at this time.
    G'day Caffinator

    ... and the whole Rolex thing reminds me exactly why I "permanently retired" my Seiko Sportsmatic5 after 20+ years of faithful accurate service. The fifth or sixth mobile I bought had a clock linked to the GSM network... My wrist is forever grateful. I cannot imagine any practical use for a watch these days.

    Oh, and good coffee grinders are equipment made to very high tolerances indeed. That is one reason why they should be treated like a precision instrument and not abused.

    My Swiss made gen2 and gen3 Mahlkoenig Varios have their micro adjustment so fine that you can not even feel or see the burrs move until the 3rd or 4th step. That is why a single "micro step" only makes about 1/2 second difference to the pour (circa 1% change, I suspect). That is not possible without true precision engineering. That is why I keep seeing posts from idiots that state that one micro step makes no difference at all. It does - just use 0.1g scales and put it through a Decent DE1 and it comes up on the graph as plain as day. Add another step and add another 1/2 second to the pour. It also makes the old "stepless is better" argument fade away - it is so much easier to go by the numbers.

    Speaking of cars - an interesting court case from a while back: The Chevy Lumina was the victim of a 100% copy (Seeley? or Geeley? - it has been a while). The original sold 75K cars, the copy sold 300K in China domestically. AFAIC recall, although the case was won by Chevy nothing actually happened to the (blatant) copier.

    Makes me enjoy my Swiss grinder into a Hong Kong made espresso machine all the more - both are high quality bits of kit that deliver in spades...

    TampIt
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    Quote Originally Posted by herzog View Post
    The risks of outsourcing your manufacturing to China.
    ...or it could be a result of being hacked and they might not even know it happened. There has even been reports of knock off products being released to the market before the real product get's released.

    That would be my tip to what happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    I cannot imagine any practical use for a watch these days.
    TampIt
    G'day Tampit, just to help your imagination along, watches are amazingly useful to people who like to be punctual and know what time it is - but don't like to be tethered to a phone. Or wedded to a charger.

    Said with a smile, just to point out there are a few ways to skin a cat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Sorry I don't understand emojis, I cannot tell whether you are being facetious or not.

    If not, you should check out Carbotec Industrial.
    Not at all, trying to be humourous....

    Pinarello is a high end bicycle manufacturer based in Italy that has fallen victim to Chinese knock-offs. There are ways a buyer can ensure they have purchased the genuine article but as we all know buyers are not always smart.

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    Flashpix, Lyrebird is in the cycle industry, Lyrebird Cycles
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    Senior Member flashpixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Sorry I don't understand emojis, I cannot tell whether you are being facetious or not.

    If not, you should check out Carbotec Industrial.
    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Flashpix, Lyrebird is in the cycle industry, Lyrebird Cycles
    ah ha now I understand the response
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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post

    ....I cannot imagine any practical use for a watch these days.
    agree, the phone, computer, car all have accurate time. But i do enjoy wearing a mechanical watch, theres something quite awesome about having a tiny and intricate mechanical machine on your wrist.

    Having taken a movement apart (seized with water damage) and successfully fixing the watch both surprised me and gave me a whole new level of respect and awe at the tiny precision components.

    Cheers
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    Seems Legit...NOT

    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    But i do enjoy wearing a mechanical watch, theres something quite awesome about having a tiny and intricate mechanical machine on your wri
    Agreed, one of the simple pleasures.

    Even more enjoyable with a display back.

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  39. #39
    Senior Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flashpixx View Post

    Pinarello is a high end bicycle manufacturer based in Italy that has fallen victim to Chinese knock-offs.
    Multiple sources affirm that Pinarello's frames are made by Carbotec Industrial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrebird View Post
    Multiple sources affirm that Pinarello's frames are made by Carbotec Industrial.
    haha, I wonder if that includes their F10 as well? There will be lots of disappointed people out there if so!

    I'm happy to stick my head in the sand and believe my circa 2011 Dogma2 frame wasn't made in China.

    It's a beautiful frame to ride, along with Campag Record EPS it's as good as anything coming out of China currently IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    agree, the phone, computer, car all have accurate time. But i do enjoy wearing a mechanical watch, theres something quite awesome about having a tiny and intricate mechanical machine on your wrist.

    Having taken a movement apart (seized with water damage) and successfully fixing the watch both surprised me and gave me a whole new level of respect and awe at the tiny precision components.

    Cheers

    The shock when people know what I paid for a watch I need to wind every day or so.....but what a joy to wind and keep that incredible machine ticking. Something i'll hand over to my son one day.
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Seems Legit...NOT

    Quote Originally Posted by flashpixx View Post
    Not my Pinarello
    That depends on which model it is. I see you have a Dogma II. That would be a Taiwanese made frame that’s been finished and assembled in Italy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawk87 View Post
    The shock when people know what I paid for a watch I need to wind every day or so.....but what a joy to wind and keep that incredible machine ticking. Something i'll hand over to my son one day.
    Love a good manual movement. They make really nice ones in China.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    I cannot imagine any practical use for a watch these days.
    TampIt
    G’day TampIt - how about commercial/industrial divers? Or people that work in explosive atmospheres? I didn’t wear a watch for 10 years after leaving school, but in my current job it’s pretty much a necessity as I can’t carry any kind of ‘smart’ device (EX rated stuff is still too expensive).
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Love a good manual movement. They make really nice ones in China.
    Haha so I've heard. They printed on the front of mine some swiss guy made it. Maybe not?
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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Love a good manual movement. They make really nice ones in China.
    Seiko and Orient (Japan) are amazing value (orient has in house movement) and the accuracy can be great, a handful seconds per day accuracy.

    The grail for me is this one, mechanical with "digital" time display. The instant switch of the time is awesome!!

    https://www.alange-soehne.com/en/timepieces/zeitwerk

    Cheers
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    I like Seiko watches too...
    Had a couple over the years and they were extremely reliable and quite accurate, plus built to take a moderate amount of abuse.
    Also owned a couple of Omega Seamasters too but they ended up getting stolen so didn't try for a third time.

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    I like Seiko watches too...
    Had a couple over the years and they were extremely reliable and quite accurate, plus built to take a moderate amount of abuse.
    Also owned a couple of Omega Seamasters too but they ended up getting stolen so didn't try for a third time.

    Mal.
    Thats a very sad story re: the Seamasters! I'm rocking the Speedmaster - and the beater is a Seiko Flightmaster.
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    I've always been a watch person, at the moment I'm wearing a Citizen Eco Drive, best watch I've ever owned, keeps perfect time, have not had to adjust since purchase, no batteries or winding needed, have owned it for about 5 years, guess it will fail eventually, at around the $150 will certainly replace with something similar.
    citizen-mens-eco-drive-watch-5069628-1~1569070253.jpg
    Dimal, robusto and hawk87 like this.

  50. #50
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    2,978
    What attracts me to a good watch is its beauty. Its classic elegance hits me in the eye. It's a piece of crafted jewellery which tells the time, albeit not as well as a quartz, but you don't wear it because your daily life needs to be regulated to the second.

    Two of my watches don't even have minute graduations, yet they are the most elegant (to me) timepieces, by Longines and Tisssot. The most expensive is one I bought to celebrate my first job, a Longines Valjoux 72 chronograph diving watch which cost me 4 weeks pay back then. The most complex of movements which was also used in Rolex watches.

    All are manual, needing winding every day. These are dress watches.

    For everyday wear, a battery Citizen quartz.

    I find that most of today's watches, Rolex included, look clunky. Thick, ugly industrial-looking bezels.
    Dimal and hawk87 like this.



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