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Thread: Quiet, low retention single dose grinder question.

  1. #1
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    Quiet, low retention single dose grinder question.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi

    I'm looking at upgrading my current set up from a Unico Splendor and Macap M4 doser combo. I've had this set up for ~12 years (can't remember the exact dates).

    The machine choice is easy - the Profitec P700 (with flow control valve fitted) seems to tick every box. Better brew temp stability than my HX Unico Splendor, the ability to easily adjust said brew temp for different beans and a much quieter pump (rotary vs vibrational). I'm also sold on the variable flow control idea, which would suit my needs to a T.

    The grinder choice, however, is proving a bit of a problem. I'm after a single dose grinder which:
    - is quieter than my clack-clack-clack M4 doser;
    - is at least the M4's equal in grind quality and consistency; and
    - has zero-to-low grounds retention.

    I weigh and grind only sufficient beans for each extraction, so don't need a hopper to store beans, nor a doser to distribute the grounds.

    I'm thinking possibly a Sette 270Wi or Eureka Mignon Silenzio/Specialita. Or maybe even the Niche Zero - although I'm not sure I'm sold on the grinding-into-a-cup idea.

    I do, however, want a quieter grinder.

    I'm uncertain if the grinders I'm looking at would be a downgrade in terms of grind quality, consistency etc over the Macap. I've read lots of info and watched many videos on the 270Wi and Eureka grinders, but can't find a comparison to the Macap.

    I'm open to other grinder suggestions that meet the above criteria.

    Budget is hopefully under $1k, but maybe up to $1.5k if there is a killer solution to my wishes.

    So, is there a suitable grinder in my budget, or am I better off keeping the Macap and putting up with the noise?

    Edit: Just discovered the Caedo E37S. Is this the answer to my question (albeit a tad over-budget)

    Suggestions welcome. Thanks for reading.
    Last edited by splashalot; 1 Week Ago at 10:41 PM. Reason: clarity and additional info.

  2. #2
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    Niche zero

  3. #3
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    I own both a silenzio and a niche.
    Both are quiet and very low retention.
    I personally prefer the flavour out of the niche more.
    you don’t have to grind into a cup but I personally prefer it now. I can be doing other stuff while the beans are grinding.

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    Itís a little above your budget, but a Lagom P64 would be worth considering too. Iíd expect grind quality to be excellent, and itís designed to single dose with low retention, and is quiet.
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    Niche Zero ticks all your boxes. There are mods people do to grind direct into a PF, but grinding into a cup isn't particularly wearisome once you're used to it.
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    The NZ for you......

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    Agreed on the Niche.

    Full and repeatable pressure profiling will shortly be available for similar $$$$ to the Profitec in the Crem 2B R-LFPP.

    I'd reckon it's worth having a look over before you lock down. The problem with the GS3 and Profi style is how do you ever perfectly replicate something which worked well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeinator View Post
    Agreed on the Niche.

    Full and repeatable pressure profiling will shortly be available for similar $$$$ to the Profitec in the Crem 2B R-LFPP.
    Thanks, but what is a Crem 2B R-LFPP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    Thanks, but what is a Crem 2B R-LFPP?
    https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/...ofiling-Rotary
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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    Thanks, but what is a Crem 2B R-LFPP?
    Company website - https://www.creminternational.com/about-us/

    Machine is listed under the Expobar line - https://www.creminternational.com/pr...obar/?subcat=8
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  11. #11
    Ash
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    I moved from a M4 to a Niche Zero just under 6 months ago. Grind quality is great and the consistency across the dose should be enhanced further by the upcoming Niche Flow Control (NFC) disc. They should be starting to sell with these in the very near future.

    My perception of the sound from grinding is that it is slightly less than the M4, however the pitch is significantly lower, which makes it much more agreeable around the home. My wife isn't woken up by the rumble of this grinder compared to the whining sound from the M4!

    Cleaning is very easy, taking no more than 2 mins for a basic clean. The adjustability of the grinder is amazing and simple to do. Once you follow the calibration process, changing to or from a setting takes the twist of a wrist and is easily repeatable. Retention is negligible, particularly after a couple of doses through it.

    Mine is paired with a Londinium L-1(Original version) and I get some really nice coffee from the pair of them together, and the consistency of that coffee is quite excellent.

    Don't let the dosing cup put you off, once you get used to it, it takes no time at all and helps to keep the area clean. I use a dosing ring when pouring the grinds into the portafilter before stirring and tamping. Very simple and very little mess.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash View Post
    I moved from a M4 to a Niche Zero just under 6 months ago. Grind quality is great and the consistency across the dose should be enhanced further by the upcoming Niche Flow Control (NFC) disc. They should be starting to sell with these in the very near future.

    My perception of the sound from grinding is that it is slightly less than the M4, however the pitch is significantly lower, which makes it much more agreeable around the home. My wife isn't woken up by the rumble of this grinder compared to the whining sound from the M4!

    Cleaning is very easy, taking no more than 2 mins for a basic clean. The adjustability of the grinder is amazing and simple to do. Once you follow the calibration process, changing to or from a setting takes the twist of a wrist and is easily repeatable. Retention is negligible, particularly after a couple of doses through it.

    Mine is paired with a Londinium L-1(Original version) and I get some really nice coffee from the pair of them together, and the consistency of that coffee is quite excellent.

    Don't let the dosing cup put you off, once you get used to it, it takes no time at all and helps to keep the area clean. I use a dosing ring when pouring the grinds into the portafilter before stirring and tamping. Very simple and very little mess.
    Thanks very much, Ash - that's all really helpful. I must admit the simplicity of the Niche Zero is very attractive - in both aesthetic and mechanical senses.
    Think I'm leaning towards the Niche now.

    Edit: I'm putting this here in case it assists anyone else facing a similar purchase decision. This is a fairly long read, but an in-depth and fascinating (for me at least) explanation and assessment of the Niche Zero. https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/wp-con...ero-review.pdf

    These in particular answered my questions:

    "The high torque coupled with high quality slow
    rotating burrs moves the Niche Zero from being a
    great grinder to being an astonishing grinder. Not
    just because it's good for its size, but also because
    you could put it up against a £1200 63 mm conical
    burr grinder and outperform it in all the key areas
    that matter when using them in a domestic setting.
    With a grind quality that is as good or better. "

    and on grind retention:

    "THE RESULTS FOR THE NICHE ZERO?
    The results were hugely impressive, so much
    so I was seeing it and still not believing it!
    These numbers are orders of magnitude less than
    most grinders and calculated over many days of
    grinding and measurement.
    • Total Retention = 0.4g - 0.7g
    • Dose Consistency = + or - 0.2g (usually
    much less)
    • *Exchange estimate = 0.3g max "

    And luckily for me my favourite local roaster is an agent for the Niche Zero!
    Last edited by splashalot; 1 Week Ago at 11:22 AM. Reason: Additional info & typos

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    +1 Niche Zero, best/most convenient grinder I have owned and the best single doser under $1500.

    I have been using a Pringles lid which does reduce the pop-corning at the end of the grind. Haven't tried the disk solution but the Pringles lid certainly reducing the popcorning and the time for the last 2-3 beans to grind.
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    I would go for the Eureka Mignon Specialita.

    You mentioned 'quiet'. It is much quieter than the Niche and better built overall.

    It single doses nicely too if you want to single dose but the timed dosing is excellent as well.

    You will be amazed how quiet the Mignon and Atom grinders are.

    I owned one for a few months and can confirm the single dosing although in the end I used timed dosing. It doesn't popcorn either when empty which is important if you single dose.

    It is also a lot cheaper than the Niche. I got mine for $800.
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    FWIW, I'd go the other way and am of the opinion that the Niche is worth every cent of the additional spend.

    Ultimately this is all just opinion though. Best bet for the OP is to try them both if possible and choose the best match to workflow preferences.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeinator View Post
    FWIW, I'd go the other way and am of the opinion that the Niche is worth every cent of the additional spend.

    Ultimately this is all just opinion though. Best bet for the OP is to try them both if possible and choose the best match to workflow preferences.
    Just to clarify - I'm in Hobart so can't try machine nor grinder. No-one down here sells coffee equipment, bar one kitchenware place which stocks Expobar. Hence the detailed questions.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    Just to clarify - I'm in Hobart so can't try machine nor grinder. No-one down here sells coffee equipment, bar one kitchenware place which stocks Expobar. Hence the detailed questions.
    If it helps at all, I was very recently facing a similar decision, but was comparing the Niche with the Eureka Atom 60 (both in white, which makes them run a bit cooler I'm led to believe). Single-dosing wasn't a game breaker for me though. I had lots of reasons for favouring either, and am sure I would have been happy with either. Neither are available from a local retailer in Canberra either (no idea why Cosmorex decided to focus almost entirely on the Fiorenzato series). I've plumped for the Niche (on order from site sponsor), coz I had to make a decision at some point, have no problem with the taste profile from the conical burr grinders I've experienced (I really like my OE Lido ET), I reckon it'll look nicer next to my white Cremina, and the ability to switch swiftly from a standard espresso grind to one for decaf floated my boat.

    PS: I'm also replacing an M4 (in need of new Start Run capacitor).
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    Cheers Barry.

    I think I've reached the same decision making stage as you and so have settled on the Niche grinder, which luckily I can get through a local roaster. So that part's easy.

    However, the machine is proving more of a challenge. I'm now considering a Rocket R58 and Diadema Junior Extra PID in addition to the Profitec Pro 700 (my 1st choice). Will likely come down to which importer is prepared to retail a one-off machine through my local roaster.

    I'm dead wary of freighting one via online purchasing - have heard too many horror stories and had personal experience with stuff getting damaged. Not prepared to take that chance on a $4k+ coffee machine.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    Cheers Barry.

    I think I've reached the same decision making stage as you and so have settled on the Niche grinder, which luckily I can get through a local roaster. So that part's easy.

    However, the machine is proving more of a challenge. I'm now considering a Rocket R58 and Diadema Junior Extra PID in addition to the Profitec Pro 700 (my 1st choice). Will likely come down to which importer is prepared to retail a one-off machine through my local roaster.

    I'm dead wary of freighting one via online purchasing - have heard too many horror stories and had personal experience with stuff getting damaged. Not prepared to take that chance on a $4k+ coffee machine.
    Fully understand your issues about freighting an espresso machine. If you do go down that route make sure you use someone with genuine local (i.e. Australian) operations and ideally who sends the box fixed to a pallet/skid thingy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    I'm dead wary of freighting one via online purchasing - have heard too many horror stories and had personal experience with stuff getting damaged. Not prepared to take that chance on a $4k+ coffee machine.
    It's unlikely any importer will offer your local roaster a one-off. It just doesn't happen. Choose an outlet which ships on a security wrapped, fully insured skid and you then carry no risk of damage in transit.

    What you need to worry about more is what can be offered in terms of local service. The importer of Rocket Espresso (Site sponsor Espresso Company Australia) has approved techs in Hobart. I am not so sure that the importer of Diadema (CosmoreX Coffee) does though. Site sponsor Jetblack import Profitec and will be able to advise on tech support for their machines.
    Last edited by Caffeinator; 1 Week Ago at 09:28 PM.
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  21. #21
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    [QUOTE=splashalot;670031

    I'm dead wary of freighting one via online purchasing - have heard too many horror stories and had personal experience with stuff getting damaged. Not prepared to take that chance on a $4k+ coffee machine.[/QUOTE]

    Buy from a reputable source and if it arrives damaged, take pictures, get in touch with the dealer and either get the replacement parts eg. panels or send it back for another one

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    Thanks for all the comments re. freight. Duly noted.

    Hopefully it won't be an issue, though, as I learnt today the Profitecs are sold locally in Hobart through Cheeky Devil roaster. I spent a very pleasant afternoon with Clyde from Cheeky Devil demo-ing his Protech Pro 700 v1 and chewing the fat over all things coffee related. So problem solved! Thanks go to Jetblack for the referral. Must admit that until this morning's conversation with Jetblack I had never heard of this local business, much to my embarrassment!

    As for the Pro 700 - it is everything I hoped it would be. A gorgeous item. And the coffee I made on it was even better.

    So back to the grinder. I'm vacillating a little on the Niche only on the basis of aesthetics, which I realise sounds terribly shallow. But I really do love that traditional coffee equipment look and I've not seen a Niche firsthand yet. Will do a little more research to see if I can find similar single dose, low retention attributes to the niche in a more conventional looking package for similar (or if necessary a bit more) cash before deciding.

    Thanks to all again for the comments and info - some really useful tips.
    Last edited by splashalot; 1 Week Ago at 05:09 PM. Reason: Typo
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    Thanks for all the comments re. freight. Duly noted.

    Hopefully it won't be an issue, though, as I learnt today the Profitecs are sold locally in Hobart through Cheeky Devil roaster. I spent a very pleasant afternoon with Clyde from Cheeky Devil demo-ing his Protech Pro 700 v1 and chewing the fat over all things coffee related. So problem sold! Thanks go to Jetblack for the referral. Must admit that until this morning's conversation with Jetblack I had never heard of this local business, much to my embarrassment!

    As for the Pro 700 - it is everything I hoped it would be. A gorgeous item. And the coffee I made on it was even better.

    So back to the grinder. I'm vacillating a little on the Niche only on the basis of aesthetics, which I realise sounds terribly shallow. But I really do love that traditional coffee equipment look and I've not seen a Niche firsthand yet. Will do a little more research to see if I can find similar single dose, low retention attributes to the niche in a more conventional looking package for similar (or if necessary a bit more) cash before deciding.

    Thanks to all again for the comments and info - some really useful tips.
    Good stuff. Re the aesthetics and the Niche, your thought are perfectly reasonable. I'm about to move on my Quickmill Achille, and the Niche looks truly ridiculous next to it (or perhaps the Achille looks ridiculous next to the Niche). However, when I move my white Cremina next to the white Niche, it will match really nicely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    Will do a little more research to see if I can find similar single dose, low retention attributes to the niche in a more conventional looking package for similar (or if necessary a bit more) cash before deciding
    You may be waiting for the promised future espresso variant of the Fellow Ode.
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  25. #25
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    I found the Niche to look much better in person than in photos, looks like a toy in photos but the powder coated aluminium body looks legit in the flesh. Can't do anything about the design but the materials look high quality. Aside from the finish on the wood (I sanded it and oiled it, looks alright now).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caffeinator View Post
    You may be waiting for the promised future espresso variant of the Fellow Ode.
    Crikeys! That looks......different? Not sure if I'd actually prefer the niche! But thanks for the lead.

    I tried Cheeky Devil's Profitec T64. Lovely looking grinder, matches the Pro 700 perfectly, brilliant build quality, gorgeous fluffy grounds. But I suspect not suitable for single dosing due to the exit chute design and possibly large amount of retention.

    My current workflow, which I'd be happy to replicate in a quieter, non-doser grinder, is:
    - weigh beans;
    - set the Macap M4 and grind all beans;
    - purge M4 of retained grinds by pressing the on switch once or twice and manually brushing all remaining grinds from the shute.
    - brew coffee
    - recall in horror the taste and my lack of ability (only joking on this last point).

    So maybe there are other grinders to consider using the same workflow? I shall give Jetblack a call in the morning to discuss my needs. I expect they can advise. Will report back here their recommendation(s).

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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    I found the Niche to look much better in person than in photos, looks like a toy in photos but the powder coated aluminium body looks legit in the flesh. Can't do anything about the design but the materials look high quality. Aside from the finish on the wood (I sanded it and oiled it, looks alright now).
    That's exactly my issue with it, Ninja - looks like a toy/appliance. Good to get that feedback, thanks. I'm wondering if it would look less appliance-like in black?

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    Mine is white, but I suspect the black would look even less appliance like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conic View Post
    Legend! That's the EXACT set-up! Even down to the flow profiling valve on the Pro 700. How do you find this combination? Any comments/recommendations?

    After seeing that photo I think the black Niche just might settle it. But will see what Jetblack have to say.

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    Google owns that one

    Thought it would help you visualize them together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conic View Post
    Google owns that one

    Thought it would help you visualize them together
    Ha! You're still a legend. ;-)

    That actually does help - a heap. I don't mind that at all. Actually looks pretty flash, I reckon.
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    After discussion with Jetblack (kudos to Ellie for being SO patient and knowledgeable) I've narrowed the choice down to the Profitec T64 (matches the Pro 700, but not sure I like the square design); the ECM V Titan 64 (love the styling - looks good beside the Pro 700 and same internals as the Profitec T64 but with titanium burrs) or the Niche Zero in black (less appliance-like IMO). My local roaster is getting in some Niche's next week, so I should be able to make a decision after seeing one in the flesh.

    I've posted a question in the Niche Zero thread, but may as well repeat here: I love the fineness of adjustment I can get on my Macap with the worm drive mechanism (the Profitec and ECM grinders above also have this system). Would I be able to replicate similar levels of fineness in adjustment on the Niche? The adjustment scale for espresso on the Niche looks quite small in photos. I'm wondering if the steps would be too large for very fine adjustment?

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    Make sure you read threads about the T64 and V Titan. Stone people have issues with the timed dosing and retention.

    As for the adjustability on the Niche, you have nothing to worry about. The labels for espresso, filter etc can be disregarded. The actual numbers you use might be similar but you can use whatever setting you want. I can comfortably adjust by 0.1 of a dot. A whole dot movement might give you ~1s total shot time change.
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  35. #35
    Ash
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    Re: Adjustment - you won't have any issues. You can can get some very small adjustments from the Niche Zero. I would say equal to the M4 in fineness of adjustability.
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  36. #36
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    Mine in the foreground.
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    Thanks gents. That is reassuring - 1 second pour difference on the grind adjustment is heaps fine enough. If it is as fine as the M4, Ash, I'll be happy. Looking forward to seeing it in the metal next week.
    Last edited by splashalot; 6 Days Ago at 07:35 PM. Reason: Originally post made no sense. Whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    Make sure you read threads about the T64 and V Titan. Stone people have issues with the timed dosing and retention.

    Thanks Ninja - you saved me making an expensive mistake there. Had a closer look at the T64 in the flesh and no way would it work with my single dosing workflow. Basically too much retention for a number of insurmountable reasons. Ditto the V Titan, as they share the same systems post-burrs.

    Looking at the Niche Zero hopefully Wednesday. Also now considering high end stuff like Compak E10 & Macap M7D etc, if they offer low/zero grind retention for my
    pulse-and-brush, single dose workflow.

    Suspect I'll end up with the Niche and learn to love the design.
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    Finally. FINALLY. A decision has been made. Dollars parted with and a Niche Zero in black now sits on my bench.

    Quick first impressions: Yes, this thing does look and feel more substantial in the flesh. The black, IMO, looks the goods next to my old Unico Splendor (Pro 700 left Jetblack yesterday). The white Niche, however, I thought did look a little too kitchen appliance for my set up, but each to their own.

    Only put one shot through it so far - a glorious 10 second gusher with decaf beans. I still drank it, anyway! That was on 20, the pre-programmed setting. Will have a play later to dial it in further.

    I did encounter a bit of grounds retention on the walls of the cup due to static. Will see how that pans out - if a regular occurrence I expect a quick spritz of the beans prior to grinding should cure it. Otherwise I'll buy a collar for the portafilter and grind straight into that.

    Edit: forgot to mention how insanely quick and easy the workflow is. I guess I had underestimated the amount of faffing about with the old Macap sweeping and purging, not to metion the noisy and s-l-o-w grinding. The Niche is way quieter (I'd guess by ~a third to half) and probably twice as fast. This camper is very, very happy.

    So thanks to the community for all the sage advice and assistance. Much appreciated.

    Edit take 2: Second grind and nailed it! Set the adjustment collar to 10 and the pour was perfect - and the resultant cup spectacular. Definitely richer and more detailed flavours from my post-dinner decaf. Also tried Agrajag's (below) side to side wiggle of the dosing cup which dislodged all grounds into the portafilter - thanks mate ��
    Last edited by splashalot; 1 Day Ago at 07:22 PM. Reason: additional info
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    Quote Originally Posted by splashalot View Post
    I did encounter a bit of grounds retention on the walls of the cup due to static. Will see how that pans out - if a regular occurrence I expect a quick spritz of the beans prior to grinding should cure it. Otherwise I'll buy a collar for the portafilter and grind straight into that.
    I wiggle the cup from side to side in the basket which generally gets all the bits stuck in the cup (also inside that ridge) for my 58mm baskets. For my smaller 51mm basket I use a dosing funnel which works really well, just pour in then bang the portafilter with the funnel still on it which gets everything nice and flat. The advantage of using the cup over dosing into your portafilter is that you can grind while pulling a shot if you're doing multiple.
    splashalot likes this.



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