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Thread: Blade verses burr

  1. #1
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    Blade verses burr

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I have just bought a conical burr grinder after reading all the talk on burrs. I expected a lot of difference as they cost so much. Very disapointed as there was not much difference in taste. My old blade was not too messy as I used a brush to serve.
    I suppose iit is Like wine to compare a supermarket wine to a first groth. but If I could afford a first groth I would prefere it. At least there is a big difference.

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Quote Originally Posted by AQUA link=1194114069/0#0 date=1194114069
    I have just bought a conical burr grinder after reading all the talk on burrs. I expected a lot of difference as they cost so much. Very disapointed as there was not much difference in taste. My old blade was not too messy as I used a brush to serve.
    I suppose iit is Like wine to compare a supermarket wine to a first groth. but If I could afford a first groth I would prefere it. At least there is a big difference.
    Hmm Aqua,

    If youre using a machine with pressurised baskets its probably not surprising that you cant tell the difference as they are designed to make black stuff out of ground brown stuff and thats about it...

    On the other hand, if youre using a machine with non-pressurised baskets, Id suggest that you either purchased the wrong grinder or that the nut on the group handle requires adjustment ;)

    2mcm

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    I wish I talked to you a week ago could have spent the money on a coffee roaster. The pressurised basket is Just doing a good job but I will enjoy the burr more when I make a Plunjer. Thanks for the help.

  4. #4
    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Try modifying your portafilter and make it non pressurised then you could work out your grind and tamp and produce a decent espresso, do a search on CS a few people have done this and seemed happed with the result..................

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    Re: Blade verses burr / TERMINOLOGY

    Aqua.

    first up, apologies as this is going to be long------------------

    You havent told us what you bought, and I am also confused by your terminology so before anyone can give a considered reply, you need to let us have more information.

    This is because some people refer to burrs in general as "blades" anyway, ie they refer to flat burrs as blades, and even conicals burrs as conical blades.

    We dont know what you mean?

    Did you go from a spinning blade (ie propeller type) "grinder" to a conical burr type OR

    did you go from a flat burr grinder to a conical burr type?

    There are low end conical burr grinders, and there are high end flat burr grinders, and all spinning blade (propeller type) grinders are extremely low end and unsuitable for your type of espresso machine.

    Also, do not be hoodwinked by all the stuff you see written about conical burr grinders that says "theyre the best". They are the best in specific situations which happens to be in high volume cafes, where conicals heat up the coffee less than flat burr grinders / but / in home situations where there is no high volume use and only short bursts of grinding time, the "conicals are better" idea is simply wrong and you will get just as good a grind consistency out of a good flat burr grinder, as you will out of a conical burr grinder of similar quality.

    It is questionable then whether anyone really can tell the difference between coffee made with a conical VS the same coffee made with a flat burr grinder (of equivalent type) and I believe that most people that might say they can, have been influenced by all theyve read instead of by what their taste buds are tell them.

    And maybe you went from a good low end flat burr grinder to a good low end conical burr grinder, in which case I am not surprised you havent noticed any difference?

    Most machines with pressurised filter baskets are designed to enhance (by way of the pressurused system) the production of crema and are not meant to be used (according to their manufacturers) in conjunction with a tamper. If on the other hand you start experimenting with your coffee making technique and use a tamper, you will improve your brew through the pressurised handle.

    Lastly, you havent told us anything about your coffee making technique and all the above assumes good or proper technique. It could be the lack of difference you found between coffee made with your old grinder VS your new grinder is not grinder related but related to a great many other variables in the way you are using your equipment and if that is the case, the last thing I would do is go off on a tangent fixing stuff that isnt broke "yet" (ie modifying pressurised handles etc). *

    Firstly, try and get the best out of your existing equipment by using best possible technique, then start modifying things if you must or better still, upgrade your equipment. *

    Going back to the beginning of this post, we dont have enough info in your question, for us to give you any answers.

    Hope this helps.




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    Re: Blade verses burr

    If you have an unwanted Robur, Ill gladly take it off your hands ;P

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Not wishing to be too pedantic,

    And I understand your response was made in jest, but / -

    There are loads of people that read these forums and because they dont have any experience on topic and are looking here to learn, think that almost anything written here is gospel.

    I understood what you meant by ....."If you have an unwanted Robur, Ill gladly take it off your hands".....

    but many dont, and some will now think that they should be sniffing out roburs or equivalent grinders like conical BNZs to place on their kitchen benches next to their $99.00 sunbeam ristrettos.

    Now I too am exaggerating, but think about how the things that get written up in here, can get taken out of context by people that dont know.

    I think the context of this topic is about a grinder for home use.

    The robur is a 25 hundred dollar high capacity high volume cafe grinder. It stands a good 2 feet tall (600mm) and weighs somewhere in the vicinity of 12 kilos give or take.

    Those that know, can joke about taking unwanted roburs home, but the rest of the population need to know that doing something like that would be a similar situation to taking an unwanted navy destroyer home for the family to go water skiing behind up river on Sunday afternoon hehe!

    If you want one because you just want one thats fine, but the rest of the population need to know that a robur is not a suitable grinder for home use. It wont do anything for the quality of the coffee produced at home, that a same brand mini mazzer wont do, or a macap M5, or a gino rossi, la cimbali, ecm best, compak, or simonelli wont do and the list goes on and on. And these are simply excellent commercial quality FLAT burr grinders at 1/3 the cost of a robur that are specifically produced for low capacity low volume use. And these flat burr grinders are in turn streets ahead of any domestic conical burr grinder make no mistake.

    I understood the context of the original question was *for home use... If I misunderstood I am happy to apologise. Otherwise I think we need to take care not to give the wrong idea in posting, which is very possibly how the topic arose in the first place (ie go back to the very first line in the topic ..."I have just bought a conical burr grinder after reading all the talk on burrs. I expected a lot of difference...".

    The conical Vs flat burr debate is about retaining quality in high capacity high volume use, and to extrapolate it into low volume home use situations takes it right out of context.

  8. #8
    maxrob200
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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Well, its responses like "get a Robur" etc that got me ending up with two (used) commercial grinders I had a laugh. I would have been perfectly happy to have got a little spice grinder and not know any better...but after reading the forums I went in search of Super Jolly, Roburs, Macap and such. My friends think that I am crazy having such huge grinders at home (1 - 2 coffees a day).
    But theres no looking back now...the addiction is growing and if anyone has an unwanted Robur to give away...... ;D
    I am now in search of commercial coffee machines...but alas the pocket is not deep enough nor is plumbing available...sad isnt it :-X

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Super Jolly Rocks!!! I love mine ;-) But its not required, a cheaper grinder will still do the job.... its when youre doing coffees for 8+, thats when the Super Jolly comes into its own! :-)

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    I was about to start a thread with this same topic, not really related, but I noticed a lot of the higher end grinders in the info sticky list them as having blades instead of burrs, whats up with that?
    for example:

    Machine Name: Mazzer mini-e (Model A&B) NB Model B not usually available in Australia.
    Price Range: RRP: $1190 / $1300+

    Sponsor Suppliers: Coffeehit, DiBartoli, Talk Coffee, Veneziano

    Features:

    Doser refill: Electronic
    Doser adjustment: 4 grams to 16 grams
    Doser capacity: 200 grams
    Hopper capacity: 600 grams
    Grinding blades: 64?mm diameter
    Power: 0.20hp
    Colour: Black or Silver (Polished Aluminium +$120)
    Dimensions: 158mm (W) x 188mm (D) x 460mm (H)
    Edit:

    I figured it out, a little more reading of the thread at hand is all that was required ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon link=1194114069/0#4 date=1194125910
    This is because some people refer to burrs in general as "blades" anyway, ie they refer to flat burrs as blades, and even conicals burrs as conical blades.

  11. #11
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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Just on that, I thought the Mini has a 58mm Burrset??

  12. #12
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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcS link=1194114069/0#10 date=1194311097
    Just on that, I thought the Mini has a 58mm Burrset??
    The Mini- manual has a 58mm burr set and the Mini-e has the larger 64mm set. This is because the motor is only ever pulsed- so essentially it can be worked harder without killing it. Grind rate of the mini-e is about the same as that of the Super Jolly which also has 64mm burrs....

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    BlueLeader,

    1. I hardly think that a flippant one-liner like that is going to result in someone forking out $2.5k on a 28kg grinder, sight unseen, and promptly breaking both their back and their bench when they set it up.

    2. I find it even harder to believe that my one-liner is the end of the world, when it doesnt even include a shred of information on how the robur is supposed to be good!

    3. Amongst other things, your posts say that at least some of the information available on the internet isnt applicable here and that people are basically uncritically regurgitating information that they have received. Yet you seem to have no problem telling everyone what you obviously believe is the "right" ranking of a hell of a lot of grinders, without even a scintilla of a hint that you have actually used any of them!

    4. People might be interested in this thread and, to a lesser extent, in this thread if they want some actual impressions based on use. Of course, theres the usual caveat that US and Canadian experiences might not reflect how the machines perform here.

    5. Insofar as you are saying that people should be critical of what they read, Id agree with you 100%.

    6. My offer to take any unwanted Roburs off peoples hands still stands ;P

    Cheers,

    Luca

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1194114069/0#11 date=1194311315
    Quote Originally Posted by MarcS link=1194114069/0#10 date=1194311097
    Just on that, I thought the Mini has a 58mm Burrset??
    The Mini- manual has a 58mm burr set and the Mini-e has the larger 64mm set. This is because the motor is only ever pulsed- so essentially it can be worked harder without killing it. Grind rate of the mini-e is about the same as that of the Super Jolly which also has 64mm burrs....
    Cool, thanks for that Chris. :-)

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Luca,

    thank you for your serious reply to my serious observation.

    Yes let me be quite clear, I do think a lot of the ".....information available on the internet isnt applicable here and that (a lot of) people are basically uncritically regurgitating information that they have received......"

    Just a couple more things. Please allow me to mention that I didnt "rank" any grinders at all. I just mentioned that - in the context of home use - various brand / models of small commercial grinders - with flat burrs - are more suitable than a robur, and do a much better job than any domestic conical (that we commonly see in our market).

    You question my credentials. You and others should be able to work out from what I have written that I have some experience, but I am also a private person and like to be just as anonymous here as many others are.

    The cringe the cringe the "cultural cringe". Why is it that we often seem to have to run to US and Canadian "experts" for the bottom line to sort out a discussion?

    Anyway I think all our cards have been played so thank you for your considered response, and I do hope you are also having a great Melb Cup day off.

    Oh, and if you happen to find 2, send one my way, but it wont be for home use ;P

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLeader link=1194114069/0#14 date=1194321810
    Anyway thank you for your considered response, and I do hope you are also having a great Melb Cup day off.
    I still dont get it that a horse race can cause a public holiday. >:(

  17. #17
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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcS link=1194114069/15#15 date=1194322127
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLeader link=1194114069/0#14 date=1194321810
    Anyway thank you for your considered response, and I do hope you are also having a great Melb Cup day off.
    I still dont get it that a horse race can cause a public holiday. >:(
    Its the Australian way 8-)

  18. #18
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    Re: Blade verses burr

    The Victorians need some joy in their lives.

    (If a third spare Robur turns up Id like to have it to see what the fuss is about.)

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    Re: Blade verses burr

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLeader link=1194114069/0#14 date=1194321810
    Luca,

    thank you for your serious reply to my serious observation.

    Yes let me be quite clear, I do think a lot of the ".....information available on the internet isnt applicable here and that (a lot of) people are basically uncritically regurgitating information that they have received......"

    Just a couple more things. Please allow me to mention that I didnt "rank" any grinders at all. I just mentioned that - in the context of home use - various brand / models of small commercial grinders - with flat burrs - are more suitable than a robur, and do a much better job than any domestic conical (that we commonly see in our market).

    You question my credentials. You and others should be able to work out from what I have written that I have some experience, but I am also a private person and like to be just as anonymous here as many others are.

    The cringe the cringe the "cultural cringe". Why is it that we often seem to have to run to US and Canadian "experts" for the bottom line to sort out a discussion?

    Anyway I think all our cards have been played so thank you for your considered response, and I do hope you are also having a great Melb Cup day off.

    Oh, and if you happen to find 2, send one my way, but it wont be for home use ;P
    Hi BL,

    I dont think that we really need to continue this exchange any further. Suffice to say that I, personally, dont agree with your opinion of how the in-cup results rank across the different classes of grinders that you mentioned. So lets agree to disagree and others can ask questions or search for more information if they want to!

    Hope everyone had fun at the cup yesterday. I thought it was pretty funny that Peter Costello bet on "Efficient"

    Cheers,

    Luca



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