Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Why?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,165

    Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Why?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    This may be going OT (feel free to split it); why is it that different grinders bring out different flavours? Ive heard it reported and I dont doubt it at all but Im curious as to why a different assemblage of what is ultimately just two sharp surfaces can have such a dramatic effect on the flavour of the same bean. I can see how speed would affect it but until you get up into slow conical territory most of the stuff in this area goes about the same speed doesnt it?

    Greg

  2. #2
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Pullman link=1208302097/0#10 date=1208914968
    This may be going OT (feel free to split it); why is it that different grinders bring out different flavours? Ive heard it reported and I dont doubt it at all but Im curious as to why a different assemblage of what is ultimately just two sharp surfaces can have such a dramatic effect on the flavour of the same bean. I can see how speed would affect it but until you get up into slow conical territory most of the stuff in this area goes about the same speed doesnt it?

    Greg
    Beyond me Greg *shrugs*....But I can definitely taste a difference out of the K10 which runs at 300RPM

    I guess this is one for a Wushoes or similar....

    Chris

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,498

    Re: Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    I can also confirm that the La Cimbali/DRM at 360 rpm produces a different (and improved) flavour in the cup compared to the La Cimbali Jnr (almost identical flat burrs) but running at 1450 rpm.... The conical portion of the DRM only does "bean breaking"..... and so wont (IMHO) affect taste.

    The grinds are more like shavings with the slower burr rotation.... but other than that????????

    Edit:

    Thinking about it - and this is an extreme example!!

    Plane off the same amount of timber with a hand plane.... and a power plane.
    The hand plane has a slow tip velocity over the timber whilst with the power plane it is very high....
    Look at the "shavings" produced.... the hand plane is long veneer like shavings..... the power plane is just dust...... and the cutting edges are about the same degree of sharpness.

    Like I said - extreme example!!

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,165

    Re: Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    Yep I can appreciate that speed -> heat could make a difference; Im more curious as to those in the mid 1000s-rpm territory, e.g. Lux, Sunbeam, Mazzer Mini, Rocky etc (guessing on some of those) - if theres a taste difference and they all go at the same speed then it must be something else...

  5. #5
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    BRISBANE
    Posts
    1,998

    Re: Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    Its got me buggered Greg - I was pondering the wonders of this this AM after this grinder revived Yemen that was really getting past it with a slightly sour end note with the Rocky (not from any lack of cleaning either). And the Peru is sweeter and more rounded because of it. I cannot understand why, except perhaps the spring loaded carriers versus free carriers - grind consistency?

    Cheers

  6. #6
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    BRISBANE
    Posts
    1,998

    Re: Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    ...the roundness and sweetness of the shots seemed to be characteristic of the SJ in the Titan Grinder project at Home Barista - it won some rounds against the big players and lost others, but overall seemed to sweeten and round the shots, yet with the exception of the Robur it was up against pretty much the same thing - large flat burr industrial grinders...so even odder.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,498

    Re: Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    Also I noted with my La Cimbali Jnr.... that an aftermarket burr set (which looked identical to the genuine one) produced far worse coffee than the old worn genuine burrs.... to the point where (after a short time) I had to spend 3 times the money and buy the genuine article....

    The quality returned instantly!

    So same grinder, same beans, identical looking burrs.... but significant difference in the taste....

  8. #8
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    BRISBANE
    Posts
    1,998

    Re: Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    That is interesting JavaB.

    I was wrong about the other grinder types in the Titan - the SJ was pitted against the following:

    * Macap MXK: conical 63mm burrs (link)
    * Cimbali Max: conical / flat 64mm burr combo
    * Mazzer Kony: conical 63mm burrs (single phase model) (link)
    * Mazzer Robur: conical 71mm burrs (single phase model, link)

    Cheers
    http://www.home-barista.com/forums/titan-grinder-project-t4126.html

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,176

    Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    Quote Originally Posted by ozscott link=1208302097/15#15 date=1208922277
    ...the roundness and sweetness of the shots seemed to be characteristic of the SJ in the Titan Grinder project at Home Barista - it won some rounds against the big players and lost others, but overall seemed to sweeten and round the shots, yet with the exception of the Robur it was up against pretty much the same thing - large flat burr industrial grinders...so even odder.
    In Jim Schulmans tests it was up against mostly conical burr grinders. Only the SJ, mazer mini and the Rocky were exceptions. Others tested were the Lux (conical), Macap MXK (conical), Macap M7K(conical), Compak K10 WBC (conical), Fiorenzato conical, Versalab M3 (hybrid flat/conical), La Cimbali Max (hybrid flat/conical), Mazzer Kony (conical) and the ultimate Mazzer Robur. ( a hand grinder was also included).

    Still the consensus seems to be that the SJ is much more consistent than the mini and many seemed to prefer it over the conicals. Seems like the SJ may balance value for money with quality better than some of the others.

    http://www.home-barista.com/forums/t...bur-t4499.html

  10. #10
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    17,093

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Its an unresolved phenomenon for sure and I think it has more to do with the structure of the machine than the burrs alone but of course, the fitment of the correct high quality burr-plates is a significant proportion of the whole.

    I think it must be appreciated just how small the tolerances need to be, between the burr-plate surfaces in order to maintain the accuracy required to ensure consistent size of the coffee bean cuttings. Were basically talking about average sizings in the Micron range and to maintain the accuracy required for this, substantial attention paid to the design and manufacturing methods is paramount.

    With my LSM for example, the degree of engineering and manufacturing tolerances is impressive, to say the least, the burr-plates are held in absolute parallel alignment regardless of the grind setting with a particularly accurate thread cut for the upper burr carrier in both the grinder body and the carrier. There just isnt any play yet the burr carrier moves very smoothly from one grind setting to another.

    This was not the case with my Rocky. Even though the Rocky is a great grinder for the money, it is not made to the same level of engineering and manufacturing tolerances that a true commercial grinder is and I think that this is a significant contributor in the end, to the maintenance of accurate positioning of the burr-plates and therefore, consistent, repeatable cuttings size of the coffee. Mind you, I have only had the Rocky and my current LSM grinder to make comparisons against but the measurable differences between the two grinders seems to be proven "in the cup" at the end of the day so high quality engineering and tight manufacturing standards/tolerances definitely pays dividends and is worth the difference in cost, in my opinion.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,165

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Mmmm, maybe.... an idea. I can understand the association with better build quality to more consistent particle size - a cheap conical that has its live burr either ever so slightly off-centre or with either burr mounted in a non-rigid carrier will result in eccentric movement or flex, meaning the distance between the two burrs isnt always going to be exactly the same. I thought this would simply affect the consistency of grinds from shot to shot, however it has the potential to affect taste too I now see.

    The variation of particle size will mean some particles will get more than their fair share of water than others, leading to overextraction of those particles and bitterness, whereas a more uniformly sized basket of particles will result in each particle being extracted by the same amount and thus produce all the flavours its capable of, something that could get masked by a cheaper unit with its earlier bitterness. If we were to compare the grinds from a EM0480 and a Robur, Im sure the 0480 would have a lot more variation than the Robur

    A better built unit with rigid assemblies wont have that problem. However it doesnt answer why there would be differences between say a Mini and a Major as they share the same carrier and burr design.

    Greg

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,564

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Pullman link=1208914969/0#10 date=1208931920
    However it doesnt answer why there would be differences between say a Mini and a Major as they share the same carrier and burr design.

    Greg
    Other than Burr size being the only variance...

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,954

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Hey Greg,

    Good questions, and Im not too sure, to tell you the truth. Frankly, I have given up questioning each of the variables by themselves and have just focussed on each of the grinders by themselves.

    Im not sure why, but the Robur seems to me to be significantly better than anything else that is put up against it; K10, BNZ, flat burr mazzers, K30, maybe even that new MACAP/Elektra conical thing. You can actually see the difference; the roburs pours just seem to accelerate less throughout the course of the shot than any of the others. The only thing that really stands out as being different between all of these is the burr carrier. Jim Schulman noted in his titan grinder thread that it wasnt a test under real-life conditions; he stirred, sifted and declumped every shot, so I guess that the difference in his conclusions and my - admittedly off the cuff - opinion might be something to do with the way that the grinder distributes and doses ... perhaps something to do with how the burr exit chute remains relatively clear? Anyhoo, Im definitely saving for a robur before a gs3 ;P

    Regarding pure differences in the size of the burr, perhaps its something as simple as increased cutting area resulting in a more even distribution of particle sizes? Who knows? Id love to use the mini/super jolly/major head to head some day. I cant say that I remember the SJ being significantly better than the mini in taste, but it was certainly better in time.

    Cheers,

    Luca

  14. #14
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    4,512

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Id be interested in some comparisons between a Robur and a Ditting. I understand they are built for different purposes, but still interested in grind quality/outcome.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    169

    Re: FS- bulk buy Mazzer minis

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1208914969/0#2 date=1208916561
    I can also confirm that the La Cimbali/DRM at 360 rpm produces a different (and improved) flavour in the cup compared to the La Cimbali Jnr (almost identical flat burrs) but running at 1450 rpm.... The conical portion of the DRM only does "bean breaking"..... and so wont (IMHO) affect taste.

    The grinds are more like shavings with the slower burr rotation.... but other than that????????

    Edit:

    Thinking about it - and this is an extreme example!!

    Plane off the same amount of timber with a hand plane.... and a power plane.
    The hand plane has a slow tip velocity over the timber whilst with the power plane it is very high....
    Look at the "shavings" produced.... the hand plane is long veneer like shavings..... the power plane is just dust...... and the cutting edges are about the same degree of sharpness.

    Like I said - extreme example!!
    Not really so a sharp power plane produces wide short shavings as the cutter head and therefore the blade revolves away from the timber while the hand plane blade remains in contact all the way through the cut. The real difference would be the perfectly flat surface produced by the hand plane and the microscopically to noticeably waved surface of the power plane taking many curved cuts. Thus the analogy would be better suited to the irregular sized particles formed by a grinder with play in the burrs.

  16. #16
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    17,093

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Pullman link=1208914969/0#10 date=1208931920
    Mmmm, maybe....
    Im certain that there is more than "a maybe" involved after the detailed comparisons and measurements I completed between the Rocky and my LSM. I had them side by side for quite some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Pullman link=1208914969/0#10 date=1208931920
    However it doesnt answer why there would be differences between say a Mini and a Major as they share the same carrier and burr design.
    With same makes and models, or similar models, I believe you need to have them both available at the same time with a couple of experienced "cuppers" on hand too. You need to be able to measure all the critical elements of the grinders in order to establish which end of the factory tolerance limits they have been manufactured. After all that has been done, then you need to run a series of "Double Blind" cupping sessions with identical, preferably S.O., coffee to try and measure if, and where, any flavour discrepancies become noticeable.

    Im quite sure it will come down to the accurate fit (or not) of the key elements of a grinder in the end as this really does seem to affect the cutting size distribution which subsequently affects flavour in the cup. We are talking small discrepancies here but in our arena of striving for ever better coffee, the little things do seem to count for a lot.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,165

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1208914969/15#15 date=1209020882

    Im quite sure it will come down to the accurate fit (or not) of the key elements of a grinder in the end as this really does seem to affect the cutting size distribution which subsequently affects flavour in the cup. We are talking small discrepancies here but in our arena of striving for ever better coffee, the little things do seem to count for a lot.

    Cheers,
    Mal.
    Couldnt agree with you more Mal. Considering a typical range (on my SJ anyway) for coffee particles is 0.06-0.11mm, any slight misalignment will push these figures away from each other. 0.02mm (20 microns) of eccentricity would be enough for this 0.05mm range to double! Probably also a reason why cheap grinders cant seem to grind fine enough even when the burrs are all but touching - one sides all but touching but the other sides letting boulders through!

    Greg

  18. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    The longer a bean is in contact with a moving surface, the more friction there is, the hotter the beans get.

    So the quicker the bean is ground, the nicer it tastes generally.

  19. #19
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    17,093

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarz link=1208914969/15#17 date=1209261310
    The longer a bean is in contact with a moving surface, the more friction there is, the hotter the beans get.

    So the quicker the bean is ground, the nicer it tastes generally.
    Maybe in a domestic 1 or 2 cup situation but in a commercial one, grinder burrs with high peripheral speeds are usually avoided like the plague because of the friction generated heat, especially when the proprietor is passionate about the quality of his/her coffee.....

    Mal.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,498

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    [QUOTE=Mal link=1208914969/15#18 date=1209282509]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarz link=1208914969/15#17 date=1209261310
    in a commercial one, grinder burrs with high peripheral speeds are usually avoided like the plague because of the friction generated heat, especially when the proprietor is passionate about the quality of his/her coffee.....

    Mal.
    And some of us in the domestic situation as well ;)

    Having tasted the difference between burrs rotating at 1450rpm compared to 360rpm..... I wont be going back to a 1450rpm grinder any time soon ::)

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,954

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Java, Greg, Chris,

    Sorry to be obtuse, but are you saying that the grinders that you have used with a lower rotational speed happen to produce a better shot, or that they produce a better shot because they grind slower? If its the latter, how on earth have you decoupled the effect of the motor speed from the other variables, such as the burr carrier and the design of the burr and the burr carrier? Have some of you actually tried the same grinder at different speeds? If so, how did you do it? Id love to try it out.

    I have to say that Im a bit confused because I could swear that the Robur produces better tasting shots with more margin for error than the Compak does, yet the Robur is supposed to run at something like 420 or 500 RPM. If someone has actual evidence to show that a lower RPM results in a better tasting cup, I wonder how much more pronounced the difference between the Compak and the Robur would become if you lowered the Roburs speed to the Compaks?

    Cheers,

    Luca

  22. #22
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    10,496

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Law of Diminishing Returns:

    If the speed of the grinder is lowered too much the first beans through will be stale before the last ones emerge. *

  23. #23
    Senior Member ozscott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    BRISBANE
    Posts
    1,998

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    :)

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,498

    Re: Large Commercial Grinders... Sweeter Pours. Wh

    Quote Originally Posted by luca link=1208914969/15#20 date=1209289752
    Java, Greg, Chris,

    Sorry to be obtuse, but are you saying that the grinders that you have used with a lower rotational speed happen to produce a better shot, or that they produce a better shot because they grind slower? If its the latter, how on earth have you decoupled the effect of the motor speed from the other variables, such as the burr carrier and the design of the burr and the burr carrier? Have some of you actually tried the same grinder at different speeds? If so, how did you do it? Id love to try it out.

    Cheers,

    Luca
    Luca....

    Mainly the former but in my case a bit of the latter as well....

    The La Cimbali Jnr (made by DRM) and the DRM flat/conical which I now own had identical burr carriers, grind adjustment etc.... the only difference being the slower rotational speed of the DRM and the DRM has a conical burr which is used for bean breaking but the grinding in both cases is done by the flat burr set.....

    Both grinders were fitted with new (genuine) burrs......

    The DRM produced significantly better tasting shots with a far wider margin for error (I no longer needed to tweak the setting during the day to get consistent shots as I did with the Jnr....

    Now that isnt conclusive by any means as there are some changes to the actual burr set..... but food for thought!



Similar Threads

  1. Using commercial grade grinders without their hoppers?
    By NewToEspresso in forum Grinders
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 8th July 2019, 07:31 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 19th November 2011, 04:19 PM
  3. Uneven pours
    By stevenc in forum Brewing Equipment - Midrange ($500-$1500)
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 30th May 2009, 09:27 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •