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Thread: More Question!!!

  1. #1
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    More Question!!!

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    When I was working today, there is a question actually pop up...

    normally when we roast coffee, between FC and SC there are around 2~4 mins gap, anyone has idea what is the bean doing during that period? caramellised? consider the temperture keep increase during that period, is it time longer the better? or shorter the better? why?


    Daniel

  2. #2
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Sugars are caramelising IIRC.
    A roaster I know told me I should aim for 6 minutes.
    I usually manage around 5 minutes give or take a few seconds.
    I try to stop just before SC on the PNG Kimel I mostly roast and guage by temp readout together with smoke etc

    You need to be careful after FC or the temp will rise too fast.

    I usually start lowering the heat source at FC to slow down the temp increase but keep it rising.

  3. #3
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    Re: More Question!!!

    so what you were saying is the long the better?

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    Re: More Question!!!

    and what machine are you using?

  5. #5
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Longer is better is too simple.

    For most of the beans I have roasted I get better results when the 1st to 2nd is longer that 2 or 3 minutes, so I lower the temp on my Gene Cafe to give me times of 5 or 6 minutes. If I try and stretch it out too long then the fresh flavours start to diminish and the coffee can taste baked.

    For in-depth information I can recommend the articles by WILLEM J. BOOT in Roast magasine. They are available on-line.

    Greg

  6. #6
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Also suggest Coffee Research Organisation website, this link in particular....http://www.coffeeresearch.org/coffee/roasting.htm

    Mal.

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    Re: More Question!!!

    so the process between FC and SC is the major stage to build up your bean?

  8. #8
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    No.
    If you dont get the timing right before FC it can all go wrong.
    With my PNG Kimel I aim for FC by 10 minutes.

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    Re: More Question!!!

    I just read the Coffee Research

    http://www.coffeeresearch.org/espresso/espressoroasting.htm

    It actually explaining where the sweet spot is, which is in between of FC and SC... and it actually mention about for espresso, need to stop before SC, but isnt espresso will have more acid before SC? is it drinkable?


    Daniel

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    Re: More Question!!!

    Daniel,

    I roast for espresso and with most varieties stop before SC.... if I do go into SC it is only the first snaps and then pull.

    If you roast much into second crack you get the flavour of the "roast" as opposed to the flavour of that variety of bean.....

    No point in roasting most single origins into SC in my humble opinion - if you do that, you might as well just buy the cheapest green beans you can..... as they will all taste much the same.

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    Re: More Question!!!

    so after SC the flavour will be destory@_@"

    damn, maybe I need to research more, because what I known before is Espresso Coffee will be good between first snap of SC to till you see the surface covered by very very slightly oil

    and I never know about espresso bean can be use before SC (too acidity), I thought it is only for black coffee...

  12. #12
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Well, maybe not destroyed, but as JavaB says, too far beyond 2nd crack with most SOs and you lose the things that make a Single Origin worth roasting.

    Beans taken into rolling 2nd (within reason) are still drinkable, but I certainly find more characteristics come through when you pull the roast lighter. Having said that, I always do a new bean into 2nd crack so I get an idea of its roast profile and trial and drinkie has given me a good baseline for which beans I like a little darker than others.


    Taste is the big governor really.

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    Re: More Question!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1228197604/0#9 date=1228219308
    .... if I do go into SC it is only the first snaps and then pull.
    Yeah same.... its a matter of taste I reckon. Although half my roasting is for filter or syphon so I want to retain/highlight that acidity.



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    Re: More Question!!!

    I reckon with most beans, stopping on just the start of SC will be the sweet spot; I find it to be sweetest with a nice body without killing too much delicate flavour. Of course there are exceptions :o For example the Sulawesi and the Yemen I found it to be much better when roasted to Rolling SC (provided its a done in gentle heat), but thats for espresso brew only.

    As Andy suggested last night, in cupping competitions they roast really light (way before SC) is due to them wanting to get every flavour out of the bean; and most of the time omit things like Body/sweetness, mouthfeel or how itll brew in Espresso form. As you can probably tell from their score sheet, Acidity and Flavour is where a Bean can really score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1228197604/0#5 date=1228211427
    Also suggest Coffee Research Organisation website, this link in particular....http://www.coffeeresearch.org/coffee/roasting.htm

    Mal.
    so they are suggesting a City/City+ roast for espresso... Ive Tried that and I can tell you all I could taste was Lemon Juice. What they forgot to mention in the article is the effect of Acid, yes the sugar is maximized but the sourness overpowers any sweetness.

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    Re: More Question!!!

    Ive been playing around with different roast levels to familiarise myself with roasting.

    Granted Im only using a popcorn popper, but I found that those roasted to just before SC were quite nasty.

    Some I cupped on Saturday had distinct notes of duck sauce/hoi sin sauce when ground and then steamed potatoes when brewed. Also a complete lack of body, acidity, bitterness or anything.


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    Re: More Question!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ACog link=1228197604/0#14 date=1228699689
    Ive been playing around with different roast levels to familiarise myself with roasting.

    Granted Im only using a popcorn popper, but I found that those roasted to just before SC were quite nasty.

    Some I cupped on Saturday had distinct notes of duck sauce/hoi sin sauce when ground and then steamed potatoes when brewed. Also a complete lack of body, acidity, bitterness or anything.
    wow! you sure you were roasting coffee and not stuff from a Chinese takeaway? ;D ;D ;D

    I think you are applying too much heat, you know its like if you were to order a Rare steak, the outside is all nicely cooked but the inside is still RAW. I think its that uncooked middle bit that gives you all that nasty taste in the cup. Just my opinion really.

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    Re: More Question!!!

    BaconMeister,

    I think youre absolutely right, there is too much heat. Unfortunately I cant seem to slow the popper down. Ive tried:
    Running it through an extension cord (as a number of forums have suggested)
    turning it off and on a few times to slow the roast
    Blowing room temperature air into the inlets and also down the opening

    Im sure with a slower time to FC (Currently around the 3:00min mark) some of those hawker style aromas would disappear.

  18. #18
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    I think the extension cord thing is hooey here.
    I ran my popper off a 30m cord and it made zero difference.

    What type of popper do you have?
    I managed to modify mine to extend the times from 5 minutes to 12 minutes without any wiring mods; all to do with airflow.

  19. #19
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    Re: More Question!!!

    TG,

    I have the one pictured on this thread. Reply number 6:
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1210750511/6#6

    I noticed identical poppers (also 1200watts) for sale in the reject shop yesterday, so was considering tearing into the one I have, knowing that if I break it, I can buy another one reasonably cheaply.

  20. #20
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    Re: More Question!!!

    I dont know that one as well as my Crazy Popper.

    Basically I introduced what I call "thermal inefficiency".
    With the CP I took the top half of the body off, they really do trap a lot of heat within the body of the popper.
    You might need to drill/cut out some large holes instead.

    I also removed the air inlet cover (underneath) which was stopping a lot of cool air getting in.

    A fan to blow away the chaff also helps cool the whole operation.

    If you take those points and apply to your popper it should make some difference to your roast times.

  21. #21
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1228197604/0#17 date=1228702368
    I managed to modify mine to extend the times from 5 minutes to 12 minutes without any wiring mods; all to do with airflow.
    Do you mean 5 minutes for the whole process? or just to FC?

    The crazy popper is essentially the same beast, just with a different outer shell. Ill have a stab at some of your mods tonight and see how I go.

    -ACog

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    Re: More Question!!!

    I havent roasted with a popper for a while, but when I did I found that going a bit into second crack was helpful as the roast was so quick. I also just shake the popper to get airflow :-), if I dont then by 3 minutes I have charcoal. By shaking I get in to SC at around 5-6 minutes. Which is quick...

  23. #23
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ACog link=1228197604/20#20 date=1228705502
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1228197604/0#17 date=1228702368
    I managed to modify mine to extend the times from 5 minutes to 12 minutes without any wiring mods; all to do with airflow.
    Do you mean 5 minutes for the whole process? or just to FC?

    The crazy popper is essentially the same beast, just with a different outer shell. Ill have a stab at some of your mods tonight and see how I go.

    -ACog
    Whole process.
    FC used to be around 2:30

  24. #24
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BaconMeister link=1228197604/0#13 date=1228699371
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1228197604/0#5 date=1228211427
    Also suggest Coffee Research Organisation website, this link in particular....http://www.coffeeresearch.org/coffee/roasting.htm
    so they are suggesting a City/City+ roast for espresso... Ive Tried that and I can tell you all I could taste was Lemon Juice. What they forgot to mention in the article is the effect of Acid, yes the sugar is maximized but the sourness overpowers any sweetness.
    Well, thats your opinion BM but since we always try to encourage that everyone experiment for themselves, everyone will find their own sweet spot for all the various beans over time and that is the main benefit of roasting at home.

    There is a wealth of information to be found on that site and to single out only one aspect of it and then decry it, doesnt do much for newbies trying to learn the basics of roasting and apply it to their own particular setup. One thing about roasting coffee, you never stop learning about it..... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: More Question!!!

    Yes you are right Mal, this method may work someone else or other roasting equipment.
    Ive been thinking about this and the only way to achieve this (at least in the gene roaster) is through super slow roast on very gentle heat so I can drive most of the acid out without reaching 2nd crack, which I can experiment with I guess.... ::)

  26. #26
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: More Question!!!

    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Quote Originally Posted by BaconMeister link=1228197604/20#24 date=1228739593
    Ive been thinking about this and the only way to achieve this (at least in the gene roaster) is through super slow roast on very gentle heat so I can drive most of the acid out without reaching 2nd crack, which I can experiment with I guess.... ::)
    Exactly BM 8-)

    Thats what all this home roasting business is about. Discovering a roast profile, a new blend or a new bean that makes your palate explode with delight is what were all on about. I learn something new about this most incredible little bean every day, especially from all the contributions of our members into this forum.

    Cheers mate :)
    Mal.



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