Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: DECAF - Mocha Java

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    69

    DECAF - Mocha Java

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Tried my first roast of this today and it was so different to any of the other beans I have tried (not too many!) I used the same techniques that I have used for the other beans but did not hear FC. Kept going until 17 mins where I would normally have reached SC and decided to pull as the colour was getting quite dark and I didnt want to over do it. Hardly any chaff was blown out...normally I have it flying around everywhere! Is this normal?

    I tried looking for some roasting tips on this bean in the search box but nothing really came up. Does anybody have some tips?

    Cheers,

    Alistair

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,077

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Alistair
    You dont get any chaff from this bean.
    Ideally you should stop the roast at the first snaps of SC or just prior to if you can.
    It will probably take you a few roasts to get used to the fact that the FC sounds are so quiet.

    Good luck with the next one.
    Mal

  3. #3
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    16,845
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java


    The lack of chaff is because the beans are "water processed", which is pretty much soaked in water to remove the caffeine and then the rest of the coffee is added back again before the bean is dried. The membrane layers on the outside of the bean are removed in the process, ergo no chaff.

    Roasting it can be tricky.

    First crack does happen, often subtle but its there.

    Colour is a bad indicator, the profile that I roast this on at the Snobbery as a brown bean ends-up very dark, looks burnt compared to other beans but they will grind as a much lighter colour and it tastes great.

    Bean temperature is the best indication, but failing that just try and roast it the same as you would any other bean...

    Hmmmm....I just had a thought.
    While I have not tried this, maybe adding half a dozen non-decaf beans would help act as an indicator while roasting?

    Worth a shot as they roast at about the same rate as non-decaf beans.


  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    44

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    I have found this to be a really nice decaf bean, but it IS difficult to roast compared to other beans. All I did was to use a roast profile that has been successful with other beans as a starting point, then through a bit of the old trial and error, alter a few things and see what the taste is like at the end of it. If you are able to monitor your roasting temperature, this makes roasting this bean a little easier.

    I must admit that no chaff was a bit of a surprise when I first roasted this bean as well. It makes for a nice change *:)

    I usually roast about 300g at a time in a Corretto and I can always hear FC (but only just) above all the noise. If you are roasting in smaller amounts perhaps try a bigger load, it may help. I always hate not hearing FC.

    Keep at it, as you wont regret the extra time and effort you put in to get the roast right.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    32

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    I have recently moved on from a popper to a setup similar to a corretto ... only different: using a Kenwood chef and a heat gun.

    I tried ny first batch of decaf in this, and I also heard no first crack, and didnt stop the roast until second crack had started ~16minutes. It was pretty dark (as I expected from the already dark green beans), and also no chaff.

    A taste-test after cool down was OK but I definately over-roasted this batch. Next time ill try to pull before 2nd crack.

    Cheers

    Greg

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    69

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Thought I might try the beans out tonight and noticed that when I ground the coffee it was very light in colour. Pulled a shot and had a try.....Goodness me I have done this roast very wrong!!! The taste was very bitter, almost salty. Obviously no way near roasted enough. I will give it another go and roast for a bit longer. Hopefully I will be able to hear FC this time.

    Thanks for all the great suggestions. I might try putting a few non-decaf beans in there as Andy suggested and see how it turns out.

    Alistair

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,077

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi Alistair
    You sure you didnt take the roast too far.
    I normally reach FC around 10:00 and then pull the roast just at the first snaps of SC at about 15:00 roughly.

    How much oil is on them, also if you only roasted them today then you ideally need to give them a few days before trying.

    Mal

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    69

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    OK. Just come in after roasting my second batch of this bean. This was a totally different experience. I added some non-decaf beans like Andy suggested and about 11:30 mins in it started FC. Now looking at the roast it was way darker than I would normally have started hearing FC so I think that is what threw me the first time as I lowered the heat when I thought it was getting dark thinking I had missed FC. I now think that I didnt even reach FC with the first roast.

    Comparing the beans side by side my second roast is about CS10 compared to about CS8-9 and the bean has expanded far more than the first roast.

    Mal, I think I may have roasted a little too far. I pulled it just into SC....a few of the beans were showing some oil as I was cooling them. At least I know now!

    Thanks for the help people,
    Alistair

  9. #9
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Internet
    Posts
    16,845
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Quote Originally Posted by 220F0A1017020A1152630 link=1235564749/7#7 date=1235648025
    I added some non-decaf beans like Andy suggested and about 11:30 mins in it started FC.
    It sounds like this might be a good tip for others trying to find a decaf indicator.... glad it worked!

    You are on track now, too early, a little too late (which will be more drinkable than the too early) and next time you will have a better feel for where you are aiming for.

    Keep plenty of notes and you will be fine!

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    58

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi picked up my first lot of Decaf M.J on the weekend .
    Regarding puting non decaf beans in as a Indicator - Reference
    Has anyone found the closest beans to use for a referance.
    Obviously some will be closer to others.
    Will do a bit off exprimenting myself also , would be interesting to find other peoples results.
    thanks Mick

  11. #11
    TC
    TC is offline
    .
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    14,665

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Quote Originally Posted by 60646E663C39676C650D0 link=1235564749/9#9 date=1241520330
    Hi picked up my first lot of Decaf M.J on the weekend .
    Regarding puting non decaf beans in as a Indicator - Reference
    Has anyone found the closest beans to use for a referance.
    Obviously some will be closer to others.
    Will do a bit off exprimenting myself also , would be interesting to find other peoples results.
    thanks Mick
    Hi Mick,

    The MJ is easy to roast. Do as you do, but close your eyes and ignore colour. Dump the beans immediately at the first beans enter second crack...

    Good luck!

    2mcm

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    437

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Ive totally hit the awesome roast point with these in my Coretto. Beware, lots of info to come.

    It took three roast attempts, going darker every time to reach the sweet spot. It does roast very differently to most beans, but Ill give you what I can.

    Roasted to CS12, batch purchased from BeanBay a few months ago. Not oily after roasting to this level (very unusual at CS12). Dont be afraid of taking this bean to CS12.

    Load: 400g green, 1 1/2 lb Remington breadmaker.
    Fan: slow fan across top of Coretto pointed at Ozito heat gun.
    Slow knead: 300*C heat gun, 6 minutes, followed by...
    Fast knead: 500*C heat gun, pulled at 16:20 minutes total.
    Days temp: 23*C. Breeze.
    First crack: no idea.
    Second crack: first snap at 12:00, next at 12:30, definite by 14:00 slow rolling, pulled at 16:20 rolling smokey.
    Roast Level: CS12 looks nearly black in sunlight, dark dark brown inside house.
    Exit load weight at CS12: 340g.
    Chaff: none.
    Roasted colour: even tone 90% dark, 10% slightly lighter.
    Roasted smell: well-done popcorn, not nutty, reminds me of Italian roasters I used to visit in the 80s. Dark, spicey, hint of vegemite *:o.
    Roasted bean texture: all easy to snap (if underdone, really hard to snap decaf, need a hammer!)
    Espresso shot straight after roasting: aroma; freshly cracked eucalyptus leaf. flavour; typical coffee flavour, good, mid-full bodied, good crema for decaf.
    Milk shot straight after roasting: fabulous. Aroma; freshly cracked eucalyptus leaf, full taste at 25ml shot in long black cups ~25secs.
    Grind: 5-7 half turns tighter on Macap M4 than non-decaf beans.
    Shots after a few days rest: continues to be awesome and flavour developing. Crema good.

    Notes from previous under-done roasts...
    CS11: colour 2-tone, but 70% darker, 30% lighter, variegated within each bean. Strong nice smell when dark bean snapped, not burned still, easy to snap, some crema on espresso shot, but still sour at CS11 particularly evident in milk. Exit load weight 350g.
    CS9-10: roasted bean smell mild, not distinctive, bean texture "sproingy" really hard to cut, couldnt snap, but brown inside all the way through, expresso practically no crema, bread flavour, sour, weak, very light when ground, puck ultra-absorbent, could not updose. Exit load weight 365g.

    Dont say I didnt warn you about TMI! ::)

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    437

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Re-reading previous posts and seeing the time from first snap to batch pull, I suspect that my first crack was actually at 12:00 and sputtered its way through into second with no gap.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    488

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Quote Originally Posted by 2A0D17060F0F0A070613170B630 link=1235564749/12#12 date=1242266478
    Re-reading previous posts and seeing the time from first snap to batch pull, I suspect that my first crack was actually at 12:00 and sputtered its way through into second with no gap.
    Thats exactly what happened to me this morning. I thought it might have just been the temp of the popper, but maybe not!
    Thanks for the incredible detail intelli!

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    87

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi
    I roasted some Mocha Java Decaf (bought Oct 2007 CoffeeSnobs).
    Hottop B: 12mins 45 secs; final temp 202 degrees; pulled just on 2nd crack;

    it tastes sour & grassy, just after roasting. is it too old? or should i just try another profile?

    Ive only done 10 roasts in my Hottop B so im still learning, and this is my first decaf. I still struggle to recognize 1st & 2nd crack a lot.

    I have just bought the Decaf WOW, so Ill probably give that a go next weekend.

    Rose

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,165

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi Rose,

    A few things:

    1) Are you saying second crack came at 12:45 into the roast? If so that is probably too fast. I normally try to get FC around the 12-14 minute mark, and SC around 18-20. The Hottops heating system is quite efficient, you may need to back off the power by 20% or so.
    2) If my understanding in 1) is correct, youre probably finding FC and SC are running straight into each other which would make them indistinguishable. Normally they sound quite different - FC is a distinct crack while SC is quieter, almost like a click. An extreme analogy would be snapping pencils (FC) compared to snapping matchsticks (SC).
    3) How soon after roasting are you drinking it? Its good to try a roast each day after roasting just to see how it changes, but generally youd need to leave it rest at least three days.

    If you can confirm the above we may be able to give some recommendations. FWIW, Decaf MJ has been one of my staple beans for a few years now and Ive done plenty of successful Hottop B roasts with it.

    Greg

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    87

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Greg
    thx for your comments. *I forgot to mention it was about CS 10-11 with a couple of charcoal beans. *I had read the notes of others with roasting decaf and so attempted to slow down the profile. I will slow the next one down a little more. * I cant figure out how to attach the excel graph (even tho Ive saved it as a gif) - I keep getting an error when I post. *So below are my times, temps, and notes on the roast. *I figure I have to roast longer without getting them completely charcoaled, as the sour grassy taste must be that they are under-roasted, or indeed the beans are too old.

    I think you may be correct with the cracks rolling into one another

    Timer Temp Fan Heat Comments/Actions
    PH start 20
    18:00 75 0 100
    17:45 78
    17:30 82
    17:15 86
    17:00 90 1 100 added fan to slow roast
    16:45 95
    16:30 99
    16:15 104
    16:00 109
    15:45 115
    15:30 119
    15:15 124
    15:00 128 quiet popping
    14:45 133 more quiet popping
    14:30 137 "
    14:15 142 1 70 "
    14:00 147 "
    13:45 150 "
    13:30 154 "
    13:15 157
    13:00 160
    12:45 163 2 70
    12:30 166
    12:15 170
    12:00 172
    11:45 174
    11:30 176 Popping - Sounds like rolling 1st crack
    11:15 178
    11:00 180
    10:45 182
    10:30 184 3 70
    10:15 185
    10:00 187
    9:45 188
    9:30 189
    9:15 191
    9:00 192 4 40
    8:45 193
    8:30 194
    8:15 195
    8:00 196
    7:45 196
    7:30 197
    7:15 198
    7:00 198 1 pop
    6:45 199
    6:30 200
    6:15 200
    6:00 200
    5:45 201 1 Loud Crack - start of 2nd crack??? No idea
    5:30 202
    5:15 202 Eject


    Rose

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,165

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Hi Rose,

    Thanks for that, those figures are probably more useful than a graph anyway. From the outset I would reiterate that while your settings are what we recommend as a starting point, as we mention they may need to be revised to suit your unit and local power levels. I think this is a case in point.

    I think you have probably stopped the roast too early, and if you do the roast will be quite acidic. This may taste sour or grassy as youve described. For espresso you really need to get to at least the start of second crack, ideally into rolling second, and this should be quite obvious when it comes. There should be lots of cracks rather than just one or two, I would wait until you can hear numerous toothpicks snapping before ejecting the roast. The age of the beans could be an issue but not necessarily.

    The roast does look too quick, particularly through the early to mid stages of the roast. This is what my temps look like early on with your equivalent in brackets:

    3 - 112 (128)
    4 - 128 (147)
    5 - 142 (160)
    6 - 155 (172)
    7 - 165 (180)
    8 - 174 (187)
    9 - 181 (192)

    The last part of your roast looks OK where the temps are rising by a couple of degrees per minute but it just gets there too fast. I tried one roast where I kept it at 100% the whole time and there were cracks and pops rolling into each other and it was impossible to tell one from the other.

    As I mentioned you should initially aim for FC around the 12 minute mark and SC around the 18 minute mark. To achieve this Id recommend initially reducing the heater power to 70% two minutes into the roast and see how that goes. If necessary reduce the heater power around the 140 degree mark to 60% rather than 70%. This should slow things down somewhat which should allow the beans to absorb heat evenly and hopefully crack more around the same time. FC will normally come around the low 190s on the panel (in my unit anyway) so if you can aim to be in the mid 180s around the 10 minute mark youll probably be on the right track. Something else you can try is dropping the power to 40% when you take the fan to level 3 rather than level 4. This should add 2-3 minutes to the end of the roast and will mean the rise in temperature is slowing right down around FC which is about the time the roast normally speeds up (as the moisture content of the beans drops away and heat starts to quickly rise).

    I reckon if you can stretch it out to that sort of result you should get a much different tasting roast. If youre having trouble with the cracks it would be best to try with a bean like some Brazil Daterra Sweet, Ethiopian Limmu or some Mexican as weve found these all crack quite clearly (other beans do too Im sure but these we can definitely recommend).

    Hope this helps,
    Greg

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    87

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by. My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable. This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently. Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data. Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose

  20. #20
    A_M
    A_M is offline
    Guest
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    6,381

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Quote Originally Posted by 636372636F6C65000 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by. *My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable. *This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently. *Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data. *Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose
    Rose... I did mine the other day and took teh probe cord out the back near teh fan... Allows for no viable cuts to teh body.

    (Stripped mine and did a full clean while I was at it - worth while)

    I am off to Morton Island Wednesday... Back Sunday and then off to Melbourne for training ( I guess I will have to go Cold turkey down there [smiley=cry.gif]) on Monday...

    Will be back for the long weekend..

    I am Northside of Brisbane... Wooloowin... Have all the tools etc and more than happy to assist you and or do the modification for you...

    PM me if it is something you may be interested in.. CS people enjoy helping.... ;)

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    2,165

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Quote Originally Posted by 4848594844474E2B0 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by. *My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable. *This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently. *Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data. *Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose
    The other warning sign that you probably under-roasted was your report of the colour being CS10-11. I would normally roast to around CS9-10 for espresso as a general rule, and decaf being a lot darker by nature of the decaf process most of mine would be CS11 minimum probably, if not CS12. The darkness doesnt mean its over-roasted, thats why I find the ability to easily hear the cracks to be much more useful than the colour of the beans.

    It is a bit of a learning curve as with anything, I know what thats all about. Unfortunately I had no-one to hold my hand when I started off with my B, but plenty of mistakes have helped work out what works best for me. How much difference does a 10% reduction in power make to the heating capacity of the unit? How early do I drop the heater power if I want it to slow down by this point? All these things take time to learn; hopefully the quick start guide you got with the roaster will get you off on the right foot but ultimately you need to learn the parameters of your particular machine.

    We can actually do the thermocouple installation as an aftermarket thing. We dont advertise that due to the expense of sending the roaster back to us to have it fitted but if you really wanted to its no problem for us to do the installation and keep your warranty intact. Weve already had one customer take this option. Otherwise for presumably the same functionality (but a voided warranty), AMs offer is quite generous so give that some consideration too. The bean mass temperature really helps especially when youre experimenting with different profiles or bean volumes.

    Greg

  22. #22
    A_M
    A_M is offline
    Guest
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    6,381

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Quote Originally Posted by 0411060413160F0F0E020D630 link=1235564749/20#20 date=1243313246
    Quote Originally Posted by 4848594844474E2B0 link=1235564749/18#18 date=1243301428
    Many thx Greg,

    I value your experience, as im still finding my way with the Hottop, and have not much to go by. *My other roasts have been OK - quite drinkable, but nothing remarkable. *This was 1st attempt at a decaf, and everything Id read said to do it very differently. *Ill give it another go this weekend.

    I really wish id had the thermocouple hole installed before buying it tho, it would be much easier to collect the data. *Im not handy enuff to drill holes in my roaster, nor would i want to really!

    thankyou

    Regards Rose
    The other warning sign that you probably under-roasted was your report of the colour being CS10-11. I would normally roast to around CS9-10 for espresso as a general rule, and decaf being a lot darker by nature of the decaf process most of mine would be CS11 minimum probably, if not CS12. The darkness doesnt mean its over-roasted, thats why I find the ability to easily hear the cracks to be much more useful than the colour of the beans.

    It is a bit of a learning curve as with anything, I know what thats all about. Unfortunately I had no-one to hold my hand when I started off with my B, but plenty of mistakes have helped work out what works best for me. How much difference does a 10% reduction in power make to the heating capacity of the unit? How early do I drop the heater power if I want it to slow down by this point? All these things take time to learn; hopefully the quick start guide you got with the roaster will get you off on the right foot but ultimately you need to learn the parameters of your particular machine.

    We can actually do the thermocouple installation as an aftermarket thing. We dont advertise that due to the expense of sending the roaster back to us to have it fitted but if you really wanted to its no problem for us to do the installation and keep your warranty intact. Weve already had one customer take this option. Otherwise for presumably the same functionality (but a voided warranty), AMs offer is quite generous so give that some consideration too. The bean mass temperature really helps especially when youre experimenting with different profiles or bean volumes.

    Greg
    Thanks Greg... It may sound lame, but as a Fitter & Turner, with high level quals in Electronics / Communications, IT and being a BioMed for more years that I care to remember (Australasia/ South Pacific)... As well as a few years of over all maintenance and Mr fixit -

    Trust me.... [smiley=vrolijk_1.gif]

    I only offer where I have had teh experience (usually my stuff to start with) or it is a last ditched effort on something that is already on the way to the dump.. Thus a no loose situation. Even if there is no fix, the experience and things you learn, are often invaluable..

  23. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    87

    Re: DECAF - Mocha Java

    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    WOO HOO, thankyou Greg.

    Did another roast of this bean, and followed Gregs. My roast still galloped away at the start, but I managed to slow it down. Then I slowed it a little too, much but then got it back on course.

    This time I could clearly hear both 1st & 2nd crack

    18min 15secs
    FInal temp 213
    CS11-12
    even colour, no burnt beans, smelled great
    So now Im thinking I probably need to slow all my roasts down at the start & middle, as I have had a lot of trouble hearing 1st & 2nd crack until now.

    I tasted last weeks effort today (7 days post roast) it was better but still sour & grassy. so into the garden for those pretty little darlings.

    once again thankyou to everyones contributions, theyve really helped.

    Rose



Similar Threads

  1. Mocha Java Decaf?
    By espressolover in forum Cup Tasting Room
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 18th March 2009, 07:40 PM
  2. Decaf Mocha Java
    By NewToEspresso in forum Cup Tasting Room
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 15th October 2008, 06:54 PM
  3. Mocha Java decaf
    By ajay in forum General Coffee Related...
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 7th September 2008, 10:30 PM
  4. Decaf - Mocha Java
    By bolb in forum General Coffee Related...
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 16th April 2008, 10:56 AM
  5. Any roasting tips? Decaf Mocha Java
    By -Alchemist- in forum Home Roasting - Tips, Tricks, Ideas
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 26th January 2008, 02:21 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •