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Thread: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

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    Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I have just roasted this bean twice today in a corretto , 420g green , and results are not great . First lot showed a fair bit of tipping ,with divets and a burnt chomp. Roast colour is inconsistant, I hit FC @ 198/11min and SC 213/16-20. FC was easily heard , SC not so much.Hardly any chaff or smoke.

    I knew immeddiately the first roast was rubbish so I tried again. slowed it down a bit at the start and hit FC at 12-25min and SC 17-50 , pulled it at 18-10min , the roast colour looks about CS8-9 , and still inconsistant in colour,with less tipping and still very little smoke.

    I dont hold out much hope for either of these roasts, but I will give them time to develop and see what shots taste like.

    Can anyone with experience of this been offer any advice....

    Greg

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Gday Greg,

    Beans from this region can be quite hard and dense so youve got to be a bit careful not push the roast batch too quickly towards First Crack(FC), especially from the Straw colour stage through into Cinnamon. I know that in a commercial drum roaster, a lot of pros are able to push the roast quite quickly without suffering detrimental effects but this is hard to do with a Corretto because of the direct, narrow stream of heated air from the heatgun.

    Ive found that with my setup, a slow-ish accelerating ramp up until the first snaps of FC are heard then heat backed off so as to maintain a ramp of about 1.5-2.0C/Minute through Rolling FC and once it starts to taper off, increase the heat to maintain a ramp of about 4-5C/Minute until the first crackles of Second Crack(SC) are heard and then remove the heat. Allow the batch to coast along for a little while (20-30 seconds) until it reaches your desired roast colour then dump and immediately cool. For my palate I tend to leave these rest for at least a week in a sealed 1-Way Valve bag before trying but you could start trying them from about 48Hrs onwards to see where you like em best.

    All the best mate... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi Mal ,

    Thanks for your insight and experience with this style of bean.
    After the first roast i did I knew immediately it would be a terrible so I did another, slowing things down a bit .... BUT not enough..... I probably pushed it a little bit too much between 140-180* , even after a slow start.

    Fore warned is fore armed...... Next roast may have a chance...

    Cheers
    Greg


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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi Guys,

    I am a learner.
    Generally, I hurry to over 100C then take it easy during the drying phase unless a bean is denser in which case I would really dawdle towards the neighbourhood of first crack.

    What opinion do you have on this management?
    Both for the bean type currently under discussion and more generally?
    Any further thoughts?

    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi Linds,

    My advice after two shockers is be very gentle with your heat on this bean ..... My first roast showed a lot of tipping ( which I believe is produced in the first few minutes of the roasting )....
    Next time I do this bean ..... will look like this
    1 min 35*
    2 45
    3 55
    4 70
    5 85
    6 100...... continuing till about 175 ..... then slow it down 185....195 ..... till FC ..... and slow to SC

    My first 2 roasts I pushed them between 140-180 20-22*/min....

    I havent tried my roasts yet but I reckon they will be mulch....

    Cheers
    Greg

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Greg,

    Particularly I dont understand why a roast of any bean should be allowed to crawl to 100C.
    Whats your logic or the guiding observations?

    Also following is my simplistic view of the rest of the process.
    Is there anything erroneous in these statements and what practical improvements can I make to my next roasts, for beans of this type and more generally.

    My assumptions are:
    1). up to circa 100C nothing much happens but water loss slowly proceeds.

    2). about 100C to about 150C heat is absorbed into the bean core and water content escapes as the bean temp esculates.

    3). beyond 150C the chemical flavour reactions which we require occur.

    4). when we pull the roast we seek to arrest the very rapid rate of reaction at the preferred flavour point.

    5). we cool our beans immediately reducing the rate of chemical reactions to an un avoidable slow rate of chemical reaction, this is where CSrs are most interested in the bean before spoilage finally wins.

    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F2A2D2730223A3122430 link=1250412269/5#5 date=1250660936
    Greg,

    Particularly *I dont understand why a roast of any bean should be allowed *to crawl to 100C.
    Whats your logic or the guiding observations?

    Also following is my simplistic view of the rest of the process.
    Is there anything erroneous in these statements and what practical improvements can I make to my next roasts, for beans of this type and more generally.

    My assumptions are:
    1). up to circa 100C nothing much happens but water loss slowly proceeds.

    2). about 100C to about 150C heat is absorbed into the bean core and water content escapes as the bean temp esculates.

    3). beyond 150C the chemical flavour reactions which we require occur.

    4). when we pull the roast we seek to arrest the very rapid rate of reaction at the preferred flavour point.

    5). we cool our beans immediately reducing the rate of chemical reactions to an un avoidable slow rate of chemical reaction, this is where CSrs are most interested in the bean before spoilage finally wins.

    Kind Regards
    Lindsay
    I have found a difference, maybe its just my corretto?

    If I rush to 100C I get tipping. Any roast profile I do the first couple of minutes will be below 100C.
    My thought behind it is that the tipping was being caused be the temperature difference between the air/surface of the roaster and the bean. I could be completely wrong in my theory but my roaster seems to behave that way.

    If I crawl (10C per min) from 50C to 100C-120C then race to 200C (30C per minute) slowing down before FC (210C), it brings out the acid and floral notes. This is what I call a "soft roast", trying to reduce the amount of heat energy getting into the bean.

    If go slow 50C - 60C, then medium 60C-90C, race to 170C, then slow to FC, it tones down the acid and gets more caramel/chocolate notes. This is what I call a "hard roast". The same FC time as the soft roast but far more heat energy into the bean. This works really well on harsh tasting beans like Sidamo.

    The profile before FC seems to set the "notes". The profile to and after SC seems to set the "tone" of the notes (make sense?). In fact what happens after FC doesnt seem to effect what is in the cup that much.
    Again maybe just my corretto. And again, if I dont start slow I get tipping.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi BW,

    Ill try to take your thoughts and experience on board and meditate on it.

    Thankyou for sharing
    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

    PS
    I have run off at the mouth more comprehensively and repetitiously next door on thread: Getting Bits for a Corretto, sorry probably better avoided.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi Lindsay,

    Im pretty new to this corretto roasting and generally try to ask the more experienced roasters if Im unsure.

    I have read quite a few of Mals post and I know he favours the slow start to prevent tipping...... With this bean I got heaps of tipping , more than I have ever seen on any bean , Ive only done about 20+ roasts and definitely not enough to sort out the various nuances that comes with experience ...... but my advice here would be to start slow 10-12 /min and dont try to push it at any point of the roast.

    I also think that a corretto roaster is can be the wrong tool if the bean doesnt appreciate being hit with a HG blast.

    Cheers

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Yeah,

    I think tipping and uneven roasting through the bean can be exacerbated via the Corretto method if youre not very careful. The trouble is, if you then try to use a heat-spreader of some description to break up the narrow stream of heated air, it becomes more difficult to get the beans roasting quickly enough with the batch sizes I like to roast. The heat spreaders seem to cool the air down too much. Very much between a rock and a hard place and one of the reasons Im thinking about building one of KKs Turbo Oven Roasters.....

    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi Mal,
    What sort of heat spreader do your comments refer to?
    What is your standard roast mass (green)?
    Turboroaster mmm interesting but several other projects on the list infront of TRer.

    Quote Originally Posted by 25080C000D610 link=1250412269/9#9 date=1250686810
    , if you then try to use a heat-spreader of some description to break up the narrow stream of heated air, it becomes more difficult to get the beans roasting quickly enough with the batch sizes I like to roast. The heat spreaders seem to cool the air down too much. Very much between a rock and a hard place and one of the reasons Im thinking about building one of KKs Turbo Oven Roasters.....

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 404542485F4D555E4D2C0 link=1250412269/10#10 date=1250753057
    Hi Mal,
    1. * What sort of heat spreader do your comments refer to?
    2. * What is your standard roast mass (green)?
    3. * Turboroaster mmm interesting but several other projects on the list infront of TRer.
    Gday KT....

    Answering in order...

    1. * You know the standard types that fit to the nozzle of most heatguns... theres one that Fans the air out with an incidence angle from about 60-90 degrees, another one that diverts the air from the main air-stream by about 75-90 degrees. With my setup, for them to be of any use I have to reduce my batch size too much and Im not prepared to do that.

    2. *750-800g

    3. Yes mate, havent we all.... ;D Seems to be par for the course once you become a CSer ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi Mal,

    on 1). Need think time to reflect on your words.

    on 2). my confidence hasnt taken me there yet.
    But you inspire me, what are the defining features of your Corretto set up?

    Churning sounds, tttttthhhhhiiiinnking...more data required??

    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 3530373D2A38202B38590 link=1250412269/12#12 date=1250846190
    what are the defining features of your Corretto set up?
    Its nothing special Lindsay.... :)

    Just a Breville Big Loaf with the horizontal bread pan and two kneading blades/paddles; heat supplied by a simple Hi/Lo output Ryobi heatgun mounted on a small Bunnings style Drill Press Stand ($13.00). It is possible to roast batches larger than the above and I have actually managed one that was just over a Kilo but my cooling setup was overloaded with that batch size. 750-800g is quite comfortably managed.

    The other issue with going to larger batch sizes than this, the bread-pan needs to be covered in order to retain the extra thermal energy required in order to have some level of control over the roast profile. Without the cover, the roast time drags out too much and I dont really have any control over the profile at all.... Just run the heatgun flat out and as close to the batch surface as Im game. Not much fun really... :(

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 527F7B777A160 link=1250412269/13#13 date=1250868130
    The other issue with going to larger batch sizes than this, the bread-pan needs to be covered in order to retain the extra thermal energy required in order to have some level of control over the roast profile. Without the cover, the roast time drags out too much and I dont really have any control over the profile at all.... Just run the heatgun flat out and as close to the batch surface as Im game. Not much fun really... :(
    Hi Mal,
    Im no expert but for comfort at extreme roast masses have you considered powering the heating element for heat boost?
    Possibilities may include:
    - manually regulated with a vanilla On/Off switch (0 or 240V).
    or
    - power regulated between 0-100% with the assistance of a Voltage regulating/pulsing device, perhaps something rescued from an obsolete/junker electric stove.

    I would be more comfortable with a little reserve heating capacity rather than flat out and watching the clock and hoping.

    Andy has suggested to me on the topic of preheating the pan that the second roast is always quicker! * *Know what he meant?
    So recently have taken to preheating roast bin prior to a roast, or from another angle, *the double roasts, the first without beans and short the second with beans and and regular elapsed time.
    Kind Regards
    Lindsay

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C696E647361797261000 link=1250412269/14#14 date=1250874045
    Hi Mal,
    Im no expert but for comfort at extreme roast masses have you considered powering the heating element for heat boost?
    Possibilities may include:
    - manually regulated with a vanilla On/Off switch (0 or 240V).
    or
    - power regulated between 0-100% with the assistance of a Voltage regulating/pulsing device, perhaps something rescued from an obsolete/junker electric stove.

    I would be more comfortable with a little reserve heating capacity rather than flat out and watching the clock and hoping.
    Im not really fussed about it KT, the only time Ive ever tried to roast more than my standard batch size is when I have dregs left behind in several bags that add up to a Kilo or more. 750-800g batches work out perfectly and when the bread-pan is covered, so do the larger batches. With the design of the Big Loaf, running the in situ element is not a great idea as the space between the pan and the BM wall fills up with chaff and would therefore create a fire hazard. A cover is a much simpler and easier option all round really.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C696E647361797261000 link=1250412269/14#14 date=1250874045
    Andy has suggested to me on the topic of preheating the pan that the second roast is always quicker! * *Know what he meant?
    Have tried this several times and it makes no real difference with my setup. Compared to the batch of beans, the bread-pan is only a small fraction of the combined mass. Much better to just start roasting from scratch and if Im roasting more than one batch, I cool the bread-pan down between batches so that Im starting from the same temperature every time, i.e. ambient temperature.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C696E647361797261000 link=1250412269/14#14 date=1250874045
    So recently have taken to preheating roast bin prior to a roast, or from another angle, *the double roasts, the first without beans and short the second with beans and and regular elapsed time.
    Kind Regards
    Lindsay
    No problems mate.... Best to go with what ever works best for you. I much prefer to commence each roast batch from the same starting point of ambient temperature. Seems to produce much more repeatable results for me....

    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    I roasted a patch yesterday. The roast was very uneven (any idea how to improve the roast?). However, it tasted so sweet when i ate the bean (yummmm). The sweetness was the first thing that hit my palate. Very interesting~~~ I should let it rest for another 5 days before i cup them. I cant wait ~~~ :)


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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    If it tastes good Tony then the roast is spot-on..... 8-)

    Beans from this region (and others) tend to roast to a wider range of colours so dont be put off by the colour variation. The proof is in the cup ;)

    Cheers mate,
    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 5F594B454059422C0 link=1250412269/16#16 date=1251092785
    The roast was very uneven (any idea how to improve the roast?).
    Hi Tony

    You might have noticed my first comments here were the roast was inconsistant in colour.

    I did that 2nd roast on the 16/8 and have since tried it , and surprisingly its not too bad at 8 days .....
    One observation is I have had to tighten up my grinder by about 3 or 4 clicks for this bean.

    What was your roast method , profile and quantity ?

    Greg

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    I roasted 300 grams~~

    Preheated my breadmaker to 100 oC then dumped the beans into the breadmaker. Temperture dropped to 51 oC. Than increased 20oC / min until FC. SC came 4 mins after FC.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 323426282D342F410 link=1250412269/19#19 date=1251116573
    Preheated my breadmaker to 100 oC then dumped the beans into the breadmaker. Temperture dropped to 51 oC. Than increased 20oC / min until FC.
    Did you get any tipping with this roast ??
    My intention was to approach next roast with this bean a lot slower than first time.


    GB

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    HS: NA~~I didnt have tipping for my last patch~~Will take your advice next time.

    what is your roasting profile? :)

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hi Tony

    My second roast was Ok but Ill be running it even slower next time ..... it went like this
    3 min to 60*
    6 min 105*
    7 min 120
    8 min 140
    9 min 160
    10min 175
    11..... 185
    12..... 195 ....... FC 198* @ 12-25
    13......199
    14......202
    15.....205
    16.....210
    17.....213.........SC 214@ 17-45
    Pulled it @ 18-10

    Next batch will be a bit slower between 120 and 190 .... probably just stick to 15*/min

    Let me know how you get on ...!!!

    Greg

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Got my Sulawesi Tana a week ago and typically, just went straight for the roasting beast! Got to fc at the nine minute mark, raised the heat gun to ease off the heat then stopped at sc on 15minutes. My bread maker is direct wired so it fairly flings the beans about resulting in this case, an even roast with only the odd slightly lighter bean. End result at about CS9.
    Tried it today and are impressed, good acidity that goes realy well in milk with a longggg aftertaste. Seems even punchier than the Sulawesi Rante- which I also realy enjoyed.
    Cant wait to take the advice of this thread and further experiment!


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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Did a roast yesterday to just on first snaps of second crack, bit uneven but expected after reading comments from other roasters.
    Just cupped it after 24 hours, dry aroma had citrus acidity, broke the crust and a rich choc/winey aroma was apparent, lovely smooth body and rich mouthfeel which got better and better as it cooled down. It has left a pleasant lingering aftertaste on the roof of my mouth, will rest five days now before trying as espresso. ;) :)

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Hmmm~~this is a very strange bean to roast. I roasted my 3rd patch yesterday. The roast was very uneven. The strange thing was some of the beans were well roasted, some of them were under roasted. The "well roasted" beans tasted very sweet. However, the "under roasted" bean tasted very earthy~~~ Im just thinking how can i improve next time.

    To be hornest, it tastes so good when it is well roasted.

  27. #27
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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    I have roasted this bean several times. I have found that if I use a very slow ramp up with the heat gun as far away as I can get it with the drill stand. When the temperature drops down I let it get down to about 12deg a min and then try to maintain this until FC. FC usually comes about 13-14 minutes.

    I then drop the heat back and finish around the 18- 20min. mark just on or at SC. I find this reduces the tipping but you may still get an uneven roast. This gives me a very rounded flavour in the cup with very strong choc aftertaste that makes you want another cup. The roast colour is generally about CS 9 but as I said a very uneven bean to roast. Looks are one thing but the taste of the coffee from this bean is greatm regardless of the uneven roast. :D

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Dont worry about the uneven appearance of the roasted bean batch with this variety.... 8-)

    It does roast quite unevenly but not as unevenly as some. Just let your palate be the guide and go with that. Depending on how you intend brewing the finished result, you can pull the roast before Second Crack(SC) even starts at around CS7-8 for various manual brew methods or allow it to coast gently into SC up to a max. of CS9-10 for espresso.

    This bean seems to give the home-roaster plenty of options based purely on roast depth alone so try experimenting a bit with this and then see how you like it best. It will still produce an uneven batch colour which ever way you go..... ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Mal: From my lot, the lighter beans have more sweetness than the darker beans. However, the lighter beans have more earthyness, which i dont really like, than the darker beans. My goal for next time is to maximise the sweetness and minimise the earthyness. :)

    P.S: I really like this bean. ;)

    Tony.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A6C7E70756C77190 link=1250412269/28#28 date=1252567520
    P.S: I really like this bean. *;)
    Me too.... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Im really glad that I read through the posts here before starting out on this bean! The roast was a bit uneven, as others have stated, and almost no chaff - quite different from the Ethiopians and Brazilians I have roasted previously. I was pretty unsure about the whole thing, but I seem to have similar results to others - so hopefully the wisdom of the crowd pays off.

    Hotshod - I...er... ::) borrowed your profile, but pulled it just as SC was starting up.

    Now to rest up and see how it tastes in a few days time.

    Thanks to Hotshod Mal and Stan for all the helpful comments!

  32. #32
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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Greg/Hotshod, if youre out there...

    Ive been following this thread and noticed you have the same heat gun as mine - the digital Bosch.

    I never get tipping with my roasts in my Corretto as I always use the low fan speed setting II up until the start of FC. I believe this provides for a more gentle roast to FC/RFC and avoids tipping and more evenly roasts a bean throughout (not to be confused with a more even roast of a batch, Im just talking about cooking thru a bean). Now I dont have this bean in my collection but did have a Sulawesi from last years Beanbay and again I never got tipping.

    Ive noticed that some are varying the temp thru to FC but when I roast I just set one temp (450) at the low fan speed II until FC/RFC. I then drop the temp and increase the fan speed to III for the remainder of the roast.

    Id be interested to know why youre varying the temp thru FC - is it to alter the profile/taste or just to avoid tipping?

    Javabeen.
    Now I dont have this bean in my collection but

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    Re: Sulawesi Tana Torajah Kalosi bean advice

    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Hi Java ,

    When using my corretto, I just write up a profile and track it with the temp probe , manually.

    I agree with you about hitting the beans too hard with heat and hi fan speed. Generally I run the HG at sp 11 but I am increasing temp as required up to 140* in the bin HG set at 450* approx ..... to maintain profile points I will use more heat & speed , or point a hand held second HG in the bin.

    With my corrett0 if I set at 450* the roast would probably only get to 170-180..... I guess each corretto is slightly different as to how it reacts.
    I do think your points are valid and HGs can often be too harsh on the beans.

    cheers



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