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Thread: Silent Sumatran

  1. #1
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Silent Sumatran

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi all,

    Sorry about the bad alliteration. :-[

    I roasted some of the recent BeanBay Sumatran Blue Lintong last evening and not only had great trouble hearing any first crack, but didnt get any indication of second either.

    I put 300 grams in the Gene Cafe, set the temp. at 230° and had virtually a silent roast for the whole time. I reduced the temp gradually to 220° when the beans started to look as if they were going to burn (I usually do this at first crack as they become exothermic to extend the 1-2 time). The roast was a bit uneven with beans varying between CS 9 and 11 at just on 20 minutes--a bit longer than usual but not the most extended roast I have had.

    I tried the first cup this evening and it is really lovely, smooth and rich with an intense flavour, so Im looking forward to it when it matures in another few days.

    How have others roasted this? And did anyone else have trouble hearing the cracks? I suppose my domestic blindness could have spread to my ears but its not my first choice. All comments or suggestions welcome.

    Greg

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    I just roasted some in my popper, I got hardly any chaff off them at all (4 batches), FC wasnt to hard to hear, SC was a little harder so I was going by sight a bit, then I stopped them a bit further into SC, the beans came out looking ok but they did look a bit dull compared to other beans I have roasted. It came out to about cs 10, and a little uneven.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    I roasted a batch in my corretto last week. It was about 15degrees outside and it took me 19minutes to hit FC. I wasnt too sure if I was hearing rolling FC or SC at 21minutes, but the roast was pulled at 22 minutes. The roast was fairly even at CS9.

    Did anyone else get a very distinct blueberry in their cup?

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    did 250g Lintong batch in the gene roaster, I thought the FC/SC sound was a little bit quiet but still manageable... probably because I was roasting 1AM in the morning. ;D ;D

    But the Brazilian Bourbon Bold from this months batch was very quiet in cracking compare to the Daterra Pulp naturals.

    Still resting the Lintong as its only 2 days post roast, this degas thingy is killing me...COME ON FASTER!!!!
    someone need to invent a device to speed up the degas! ;D

    By the way I took the Lintong to 2nd crack somewhere between the start and rolling SC.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by BaconMeister link=1227875284/0#3 date=1228266780


    someone need to invent a device to speed up the degas! ;D
    They have - it is called a grinder! *;D


    To answer your question Greg, I heard a rather distinct 1st Crack at 12 min and 207 deg c in my Corretto.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by runfast link=1227875284/0#4 date=1228287429
    They have - it is called a grinder! *;D
    I said Degas, not Oxidize ::)


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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by BaconMeister link=1227875284/0#3 date=1228266780
    *

    Still resting the Lintong as its only 2 days post roast, this degas thingy is killing me...COME ON FASTER!!!!
    someone need to invent a device to speed up the degas! ;D
    To plagiarise a famous saying "Patience grasshopper"

    The next thing you will want someone to mature a fine wine faster ::)

    The degassing is part of the maturing process for the roasted beans..... during which equilibrium is re-established after being almost incinerated..... and this takes time.....

    If you want to speed up degassing and alter the flavour profile by speeding things up (also evaporating the volatile oils).... then apply a vacuum :P

    Me, Im a believer in "Patience grasshopper"

    ;) :) :)

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Interesting note on the Equilibrium JavaB.
    Can I ask your advice in storing the bean as well? at the moment I store them in coffee bags with 1 way valve, I immediately seals the bag up and use a vacuum to suck all the air out via the valve.
    But Tom from SweetMarias seems to think its better to store the bean with a bit of oxygen, otherwise it tends to go flat a bit.
    Just wondering whats your take on this?

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    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Hi "BM"....

    No doubt JB will get back to you pretty quickly but most of us (I think), avoid using any kind of vacuum process as it accelerates the process of oils migrating to the outside of the bean. Some of those oils are thought to be quite volatile too and may even be evaporated and exhausted through the device being used to create the vacuum. I have NO personal knowledge or expertise in this area but it makes sense that this could happen.

    Basically, I do everything that you do but leave out the vacuum step and instead, just squeeze out as much of the air as I can. Over time and with a few experiments, Ive discovered that bagging and sealing the beans while they are still warm (42-45C) seems to enhance the the longevity of the peak flavour plateau. With some beans Ive experimented with, this plateau can extend for a ridiculously long time but probably has just as much to do with the particular beans and the roast profile being "bang on". Some of our Pro Roasters could probably explain better what is going on here.

    Anyway mate, hope this helps a bit.... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Hi BM,

    Yep, Mal is right on the money!

    Put them in a one way valved bag and squeeze as much air out as you can. A vacuum will suck out some of the volatile oils..... and leaving lots of oxygen in the bag is a no-no as it is oxygen which causes the beans to go rancid and destroys the flavour (by oxidising the oils)...

    So as little air as possible (squeezing the bag) - but without using a vacuum - will give the best results. And if the beans are still warm when bagged they are giving off more gas (carbon dioxide) which will displace the air in the bag and act as a preservative...... best of all worlds!!

  11. #11
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Thanks JB..... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Thanks guys. I am learning all the time. ;)

  13. #13
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Thanks for the comments, I reckon Ill have to roast another batch soon and listen a bit harder.

    Today, at roast +10 days the piccolo lattes are beautiful, better than 3 days ago, so it may still be improving in flavour.

    So many beans, so many roast profiles, so many aging options! Glad I keep records and have so many coffee friends to help.

    Greg

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    An update on the Blue Lintong now 8 days post roast. Brewed in the Aeropress with hand cut fiber filter instead of the normal paper filter, upside down method.

    one word: NICE NICE NICE!!! (OK thats 3)

    I am now getting a Perfumy wet aroma which wasnt too apparent 4 days ago. The cup is so much more sweeter and less bitter as well. More flavours seem to come in the cup as well, caramel, vanilla, tree bark ( :o, probably part of the Earthy flavour). very intense!

    This was brewed with Espresso Ground coarseness (70g/L) for 1 min, water temp just off boil (~96c).

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by BaconMeister link=1227875284/0#13 date=1228827950
    An update on the Blue Lintong now 8 days post roast. Brewed in the Aeropress with hand cut fiber filter instead of the normal paper filter, upside down method.
    Im intrigued "BM",

    What constitutes the "upside down method" with the AeroPress? Never heard of that one before :-?

    Mal.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1227875284/0#14 date=1228829779
    Quote Originally Posted by BaconMeister link=1227875284/0#13 date=1228827950
    An update on the Blue Lintong now 8 days post roast. Brewed in the Aeropress with hand cut fiber filter instead of the normal paper filter, upside down method.
    Im intrigued "BM",

    What constitutes the "upside down method" with the AeroPress? Never heard of that one before :-?

    Mal.
    Hi Mal

    If you draw out the plunger about 90% of the way, and turn it upside down, with the black filter facing upward, it will stand up fairly securely. I use it this way to make small batches of CP - works well, easy, and clean. :)

    Dont know why youd bother with hand cut filters though!

  17. #17
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1227875284/0#15 date=1228865842

    Hi Mal

    If you draw out the plunger about 90% of the way, and turn it upside down, with the black filter facing upward, it will stand up fairly securely. *I use it this way to make small batches of CP - works well, easy, and clean. :)
    Wasnt quite sure what Den meant until I found out you invert it as Den describes, press "up" until it is almost coming out through the black filter then put right way up and press into the cup. Ill have to try it now.

    Its mentioned here and here and elsewhere if you google "aeropress upside-down method"

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Spot on Dennis. The reason behind this it to maximum the amount of Precious coffee oil ended up in the cup. Because when you are doing it the normal way with the Aeropress most of the oil is actually trapped in the coffee pluck.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1227875284/0#15 date=1228865842

    Dont know why youd bother with hand cut filters though!
    As to why I use a hand cut fiber filter Dennis, if you have a read of those 2 links supplied by flynn_aus, youll see they talk about the standard paper filter actually absorbs some of that coffee oil which we want in the cup, so a fiber type will trap the coffee ground without trapping too much oil.

  19. #19
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1227875284/0#15 date=1228865842
    Hi Mal

    If you draw out the plunger about 90% of the way, and turn it upside down, with the black filter facing upward, it will stand up fairly securely. I use it this way to make small batches of CP - works well, easy, and clean. :)
    Thanks for that Den....

    Had visions of having to stand on my head, tongue held thus :P and with the aid of a trusty helper, catch the brew as I pressed the plunger. Makes sense now ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    any thoughts on the best profile for this one?

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal link=1227875284/0#8 date=1228451492
    Hi "BM"....

    Basically, I do everything that you do but leave out the vacuum step and instead, just squeeze out as much of the air as I can. Over time and with a few experiments, Ive discovered that bagging and sealing the beans while they are still warm (42-45C) seems to enhance the the longevity of the peak flavour plateau. With some beans Ive experimented with, this plateau can extend for a ridiculously long time but probably has just as much to do with the particular beans and the roast profile being "bang on". Some of our Pro Roasters could probably explain better what is going on here.

    Anyway mate, hope this helps a bit.... :)

    Mal.
    Just found this thread, and apologies to GregWormald for the hijacking. Mal, dont the beans sweat when you bag them warm? Ive always left them until they are stone cold before bagging for fear of condensation causing them to go mouldy. I realise there isnt a lot of moisture left in the beans at this point, but Id have thought there would be some. Since Im roasting this weekend Ill try it and see.

  22. #22
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    See how you go Viv.
    Ive bagged the occasional roast that wasnt quite stone cold and havent noticed any condensation.

  23. #23
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by Viviane link=1227875284/20#20 date=1229130558
    Just found this thread, and apologies to GregWormald for the hijacking. Mal, dont the beans sweat when you bag them warm? Ive always left them until they are stone cold before bagging for fear of condensation causing them to go mouldy. I realise there isnt a lot of moisture left in the beans at this point, but Id have thought there would be some. Since Im roasting this weekend Ill try it and see.
    Gday Viv....

    In a word, no. Ive tried bagging the beans at a range of temperatures over time, including stone dead cold after leaving to cool down to ambient temperature on a mid-Winters morning. It just seems, to my palate anyway, that the beans retain more punch in the flavour if bagged and sealed while they are warm (42-45C) and then seem to hold this level of flavour intensity for longer. I grabbed my young bloke to help me with cupping during all of this (over several months) and his opinions were similar to mine.

    Anyway, like TG says, give it a go yourself Viv and see what you think. Might be pleasantly surprised.... ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    I just roasted my first 500g batch of this. A noticeable FC at 10 minutes, followed by second crack just before 17 minutes. At that stage I removed beans. The beans turned out CS 9>10. My first attempt at the spreadsheet is below. *:) Perhaps I raised the heat gun a little too high after FC? Notice the dip. OK? *:-/ Bagged them just over 40 degrees.


  25. #25
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Gday Buschy,

    Let us know how the roast turns out in a few days time mate.

    With roasting coffee, youve got to maintain a positive gradient at all times, right up to the point where you dump the beans and cool down. Basically, youre looking for a gradient of about 14-16C/Minute up to First Crack and once the Roll is well under way, you reduce the heat to achieve a gradient of about 5-6C/Minute up until Second Crack starts or at some point before this.

    Allowing the temperature to fall away, especially after FC has completed, wont allow the beans to fully develop their full flavour potential and while the end result might be OK, it probably wont be great. You never know though ::). Some great info on roasting here... http://www.coffeeresearch.org/coffee/roasting.htm that can be applied just as well to the home roaster as for the commercial roaster.

    Cheers,
    Mal.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Gday Buschy,

    Agree completely with what Mal said, but had some observations from your graph...

    Given that:
    i) measured temp is >100ēC at 1min, and
    ii) temp falls dramatically when you raised heat gun...
    Id guess that the temperature youre measuring is closer to the air temperature in the roaster than the temp of the beans (ie. your temp probe probably isnt right in the beans). This isnt necessarily a problem; you just need to get used to the readings you get and adjust accordingly. What it DOES mean is that although the temperature DROPS after FC in your graph, the temperature of the beans may not have - meaning that you averted the undesirable scenario Mal referred to.

    FWIW, we used to measure air temp, not bean temp, but have found since switching to measuring bean temp that it is a lot more consistent and accurate. We can now watch the bean temp rising through 4, 5, 6 minutes and know fairly accurately when FC will happen.

    Cheers
    Stuart

  27. #27
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Excellent point Stuart 8-)

    I guess a couple of photos of your BM "Buschy", with the location of the probe in respect to the usual batch load you roast would be helpful and insightful....

    Mal.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Thanks! :) Will do on Friday when I pull the gear out and roast. I have lowered the temperature stick-type probe 3 times now but it still is partially exposed until the beans have expanded in size. My BM has a large rectangular basket and my usual roast of 500g is probably not quite enough even with the probe now positioned in the lowest hole I have drilled. The probe sits almost directly below and in-line with the narrow rectangular diffuser on my Ryobi heat gun. I thought about moving the probe to the opposite end of the BM basket away from the heat gun (that is where my bead type probe used to sit) but many of the photos I have viewed of other CSs setups appear to have the probe on the same side as the gun (sort of half way between the paddle in the center and the narrow outside wall/edge).

  29. #29
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by Buschy link=1227875284/20#27 date=1229472897
    I thought about moving the probe to the opposite end of the BM basket away from the heat gun (that is where my bead type probe used to sit) but many of the photos I have viewed of other CSs setups appear to have the probe on the same side as the gun (sort of half way between the paddle in the center and the narrow outside wall/edge).
    Theres no set "rule" about this Buschy..... Its more a case of trying to site the probe away from the direct contact with air from the heatgun while still being responsive enough to reliably report the temperature of the bean mass. Our BM uses a horizontal pan too and I understand the frustration of trying to roast batches below a certain "ideal" weight. One advantage that you do have with this style of BM though, is that you have several locations where it is reasonably easy to setup the Temp. Probe.

    With ours, I havent drilled any holes in the BM/Pan, instead I drop the Probe vertically through a piece of 13mm x 50mm piece of timber that then sits on top of the pan. A bulldog clip now secures the Probe height and it is relatively easy to adjust or move around as required for different batch sizes - the smallest batch size I roast is 300g and can be quite tricky to do consistently as the Pan looks almost empty.

    Cheers Buschy :)
    Mal.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Thanks. I ended up drilling one more hole. Photos as promised. I roasted some Ethiopian Gambella yesterday (roast chart shown in a different thread) with the probe in the new location. It is now well covered when roasting 500g and no longer in direct contact with the heat from the gun. Appears to be working much better. Will try again with the Sumatran next week and compare.


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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    It might help to have the heatgun pointed at the other end of the bucket...even further away from the probe. just a thought.

    sd

  32. #32
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    I agree.
    My probe is in the middle of one side deep in the bean mass and the gun is pointed into a corner.

    If I point the gun into the middle the temp readout instantly soars.

    Your gun looks too close to the probe for my liking.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    I had another go this morning and decided to position the gun at the far end of the bucket as suggested. I think its an improvement. The gun must have been a little higher than last time, as the roast dragged on a bit. I will keep this in mind. I never did hear second crack ("Silent Sumatran..." *:) ). At the 20 minute mark the beans were approaching CS 9 so I felt it best to eject at that stage.


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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Quote Originally Posted by Buschy link=1227875284/20#32 date=1229906080
    I never did hear second crack ("Silent Sumatran..." *:) ). At the 20 minute mark the beans were approaching CS 9 so I felt it best to eject at that stage.
    Thats probably because it hasnt reached SC yet, With the Blue Lintong you do have to be a bit heavy handed (more heat) after FC otherwise it takes an eternity to reach SC.

    Which is a different story to the Sumatran Takengon which seem to get to SC rather quickly.

    How very odd you get 2 beans from the same region with 2 completely different roast profile... :-? the only thing I can think of is they are probably different Varietals.

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    Re: Silent Sumatran

    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Just finished another roast of this sucker... *:) I didnt raise the gun and back off after FC (12 min) and I think that did the trick. Thanks. A noticeable second crack came 6.5 minutes later at 18.30 min. I wont bother posting the chart but it turned out to be a nice steadily increasing roast temp wise. Approx. 200 degrees at FC and finished at 226 when I removed at the start of second crack. Tried out my new bean cooler and it had the beans down to just over 40 degrees 2>2.5 minutes after I popped them on it. *CS 9>9.5ish. Will let them rest for a week and try. Excited about this one. *;D



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