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Thread: Roasting green beans at home - my first and second time.

  1. #1
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    Roasting green beans at home - my first and second time.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I roasted some Guatemala Huehuetenango beans 4 days ago and today I roasted a Brazil Daterra Sweet bean. About 2 hours after the Brazil roast, we tried both beans (separately of course) in a freshly ground coffee, an espresso for one and a piccolo for the other.
    My question is, why is it best to wait about 4-8 days before we are supposed to drink the freshly roasted beans? We found both beans (the Guatemala roasted 4 days ago) and the Brazilian (roasted today) were both okay and drinkable. The Guatemala coffee was smoother and the Brazillian tasted bolder.
    Any input on this question, as its my first time to ever roast, however I've been making coffees since 2006.

  2. #2
    Member danzx6r's Avatar
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    Glad to hear you got stuck into roasting. Keep it up and enjoy.

    As for why wait I'll leave that to the more experienced guys.

    Dan

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    Thanks for the encouragement, my next batch will be some robusta to mix with the other roasts. I must say too that have you been "light headed" after drinking a freshly roasted and freshly ground coffee? My head was spinning.

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    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Hi grindmobile
    It's not like well roasted high quality beans will ever taste bad at any stage post roast - but they will hit a sweet spot at some point as they take a few days to degas (get rid of the CO2). But try for yourself! Roast 300g, try an espresso each day for week - you'll know what the resting fuss is all about soon enough!
    Personally I roast to rest for at least 7 days before I need it - and I find the sweet spot is about 9-10 days, depending on the type of bean.
    But so good to hear you already like your home roasted efforts!
    Matt

  5. #5
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Welcome to CS grindmobile!

    We want your home roasts to be better than 'ok and drinkable' !! 8-)
    Post roast resting is an interesting phenomenon alright. DzxC is right, it's a good idea to roast a batch or two and track the coffee over a two week period. Looks like there is more anecdotal observation rather than science about what happens during this period but my palate tells me that body develops and flavour emerges. Balance between sugar and acid also becomes evident as well as complexity.

    If you look in the 'Cupping Room' threads you'll get some idea of what people experience with different beans as rest periods are often mentioned. Look up 'Uru Estate' or 'Yemen Bani Ismail' and others.

    It's also interesting to note the differences between dry process Ethiopians and Central Americans (for example) and how rest times can differ.
    Some beans also seem to show a spectrum of flavours over a period of time. All the more reason to roast; you can identify when a bean/roast is ready for your particular taste and you can experience more than one dimension!

    There's nothing like having ripe red fruits on day 6, plus spice on day 8 and then a chocolate explosion added on day 10 !! 8-)

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    Wow, thanks so much for both of your valued experiences. I roasted again this morning and have come up with a new problem more than once now.
    When I get the Behmor 1600 booklet out it mentions P1, P2 etc and "hard bean", "soft bean/low grown", "soft bean or espreso blends" and "Hawaiian, Jamaican etc/Island coffees-City/City+". Now if I buy the Guatemalan H bean how do I know if it is a soft or hard bean or low grown etc? If it has the country of origin, I get a clue but if its just "Robusta" I don't know how to tell if it is a hardie or a softie.
    Your experienced input please.


    PS I'm going to do a roasting course this week, hopefully this will enlighten me.

    GM
    Last edited by grindmobile; 20th January 2013 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention ...

  7. #7
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    There is a classification system, of sorts, which will help you.
    Anything marked with the following are (generally) Centrals and hard beans:
    SHB......... Strictly Hard Bean
    HB........... Hard Bean
    HG........... High Grown (will be hard bean)

    As a general rule beans over (approx) 1000 m ASL will be harder beans, increasing in hardness as altitude increases,
    with degrees of softening as altitude decreases.
    For the most part 'island beans', Pacific islands, Australia etc will be relatively 'soft'.
    Some roasters won't buy beans grown less than 1200 m ASL, with the exception of Brazils, which might come down
    to as low as 900 m ASL.

    Don't equate altitude with any necessarily inherent quality, plenty of poor coffee comes from high altitude areas.

    Small, dense beans from Ethiopia, Yemen and some other African countries are hard bean by nature of the climate
    and altitude but don't carry a hard bean classification.

    Not all Robusta will be soft, a Ugandan robusta, grown at high altitude, will be harder than a
    Vietnamese robusta, grown at a much lower altitude.
    Indonesian coffee, especially from Sumatra, are more medium in density. Monsooned beans are 'softer'.

    You can generally google the farm or washing station names to get an idea of their height ASL.
    The vast majority of Arabica beans on the market are hard beans and some commercial roasters and importers use
    equipment that will measure bean density and moisture and will be a source of reference.

    Ask questions, enjoy the journey.
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    I have a lot to learn. Thank you again for your info and expertise. Most grateful.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    There's nothing like having ripe red fruits on day 6, plus spice on day 8 and then a chocolate explosion added on day 10 !! 8-)
    (ripe red fruits) What exactly does this mean, apples, plums, strawberries, raspberries, cherries, blood orange, cranberries, pomegranates, red grapes, rhubarb, watermelon or something else?

    Even more so with (spice) there are literally hundreds of them.

    Chocolate I can understand, although not sure about the explosion part, I've certainly experienced intense chocolate flavours, and very nice they are too, however have yet to experience anything exploding in my mouth and hope to keep it that way.

    Coffee nerds seem to have learned quickly from the verbal excesses of wine writers, in some cases they even surpass them.
    habahabanero likes this.

  10. #10
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    (ripe red fruits) What exactly does this mean, apples, plums, strawberries, raspberries, cherries, blood orange, cranberries, pomegranates, red grapes, rhubarb, watermelon or something else?

    Even more so with (spice) there are literally hundreds of them.

    Chocolate I can understand, although not sure about the explosion part, I've certainly experienced intense chocolate flavours, and very nice they are too, however have yet to experience anything exploding in my mouth and hope to keep it that way.

    Coffee nerds seem to have learned quickly from the verbal excesses of wine writers, in some cases they even surpass them.
    Second you there :-)
    Maybe the subtleties come out more in traditional cupping - but my flavours seem to be based around chocolate, caramel, berries, lifeless, sour & burnt! Maybe I'm just a cretin!
    Matt

  11. #11
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Maybe I'm just a cretin!
    Matt
    Guess that makes two of us.

  12. #12
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    (ripe red fruits) What exactly does this mean, apples, plums, strawberries, raspberries, cherries, blood orange, cranberries, pomegranates, red grapes, rhubarb, watermelon or something else?

    Even more so with (spice) there are literally hundreds of them.

    Chocolate I can understand, although not sure about the explosion part, I've certainly experienced intense chocolate flavours, and very nice they are too, however have yet to experience anything exploding in my mouth and hope to keep it that way.

    Coffee nerds seem to have learned quickly from the verbal excesses of wine writers, in some cases they even surpass them.
    Thanks for that Yelta, after 20 years in the wine industry, tasting, tasting tasting, my palate is pretty good, better than most,
    my vocabulary even better than my palate and my desire to convey excitement about coffee exceeds both.
    (even produced a wine judged to "best single vineyard wine' in the country, at the time).
    What gives me the #$@#@ is people who have to drag everyone else down to
    common denominator level just to make themselves feel good about their own shortcomings.
    As well as people who sit at their computer and lob insults at people they know little about.

    I hope you're not one of them. "Roll eyes"

    Did you ever have a properly roasted Uru Estate on day 10?
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Thanks for that Yelta, after 20 years in the wine industry, tasting, tasting tasting, my palate is pretty good, better than most,
    my vocabulary even better than my palate and my desire to convey excitement about coffee exceeds both.
    (even produced a wine judged to "best single vineyard wine' in the country, at the time).
    What gives me the #$@#@ is people who have to drag everyone else down to
    common denominator level just to make themselves feel good about their own shortcomings.
    As well as people who sit at their computer and lob insults at people they know little about.

    I hope you're not one of them. "Roll eyes"

    Did you ever have a properly roasted Uru Estate on day 10?
    Ahhh, looks like I nailed it in one re the vocabulary

    Nope not one of em, I'm a bit of a wine snob as well and have always maintained wine writers are full of it, I see the same in the coffee industry now, some of the descriptors are nonsensical.

    Will leave "Uru Estate on day 10" for you to enjoy

    Ooroo,

    Yelta.

  14. #14
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    yadayadayada
    So, you've never tasted blueberry in an Ethiopian or Yemen?
    Strawberries in a light roast Yirg?
    Red apple skin in a Guatamelan Peurto Verde?
    Or blackcurrant in a filter roasted Kenyan?
    Maybe cherry in a Brazil Pedra Redonda or Rwandan Gisenyi?
    Never experienced juiciness against astringency?
    Nuttiness against fruitiness?


    Reading some old Cupping Room threads/posts over the last few minutes suggests more
    than just a few things about the position you are taking.
    I simply wanted to convey passion and interest with a non-specific, generic and simplified statement.
    If thats the charge by judge jury and executioner then I plead guilty 10 times over
    and with no remorse.

    I'm no wine writer so, by your own admission, you missed the mark.

    Chokkidog, over it and out of it.
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  15. #15
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    yadayadayada
    So, you've never tasted blueberry in an Ethiopian or Yemen?
    Strawberries in a light roast Yirg?
    Red apple skin in a Guatamelan Peurto Verde?
    Or blackcurrant in a filter roasted Kenyan?
    Maybe cherry in a Brazil Pedra Redonda or Rwandan Gisenyi?
    Never experienced juiciness against astringency?
    Nuttiness against fruitiness?


    Reading some old Cupping Room threads/posts over the last few minutes suggests more
    than just a few things about the position you are taking.
    I simply wanted to convey passion and interest with a non-specific, generic and simplified statement.
    If thats the charge by judge jury and executioner then I plead guilty 10 times over
    and with no remorse.

    I'm no wine writer so, by your own admission, you missed the mark.

    Chokkidog, over it and out of it.


    Whoa, is it just me or has the temp just jumped!

    Just to tone it down a bit and ask a serious question out of interest, Chokkidog - I've always wondered where a lot of the flavour descriptors come from.
    Is there a particular brew technique used that gives the most variations? From what I've read, traditional cupping with light roasted beans seems to give a wider range of those subtle flavours - has that been our experience? My comment was really just that straight espresso or in milk doesn't seem to give as much variety. I've certainly been getting lots of berries (even through soy!) with the Harrar, and Uru at 10 days is a choc monster.
    Just still looking for leather and tobbaco!

    Cheers
    Matt

  16. #16
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Whoa, is it just me or has the temp just jumped!

    Just to tone it down a bit and ask a serious question out of interest, Chokkidog - I've always wondered where a lot of the flavour descriptors come from.
    Is there a particular brew technique used that gives the most variations? From what I've read, traditional cupping with light roasted beans seems to give a wider range of those subtle flavours - has that been our experience? My comment was really just that straight espresso or in milk doesn't seem to give as much variety. I've certainly been getting lots of berries (even through soy!) with the Harrar, and Uru at 10 days is a choc monster.
    Just still looking for leather and tobbaco!

    Cheers
    Matt
    Appropriately enough, the Cuban Turquino Lavado is full of tobacco leaf!

  17. #17
    Senior Member robusto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Guess that makes two of us.
    I had a laugh, make that three.

    I have never been able to relate the effusive descriptions of wine writers to any mental image they
    are supposed to conjure.

    Earth tones? Berries? Mean nothing to me.

    So, ditto I am afraid, for similar coffee descriptions. Berries, citrus, overtones of this and lingering after-taste of that....all lost on me.

    Not saying others won't relate to the desciptions. Just saying I can't.

  18. #18
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    At the end of the day what one persons palate taste doesn't mean someone else's palate should or can taste the same.

    I wish i had the palate that some people have on here.

    I also wish i had a better vocabulary since we are on that subject in a coffee forum.....

    We are all entitled to our own opinions being an educated one or a personal one its alway nice to be able to turn around a listen to what someone else has to say. Only then can you learn something.

    Enjoy your coffee guys, however you have it and like it.
    Vinitasse, i agree with the Cuba...

    Chris

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    Hey Chokkidog,

    Just wondering regarding the Puerta Verde.....Got some yummy stuff from it but i am interested in that red apple......any hints to what depth you are going to get that one, or any other profile notes such as development past FC that might put me towards that area?
    Every roast is like another little Christmas present........kind of exciting!

    Cheers

  20. #20
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robusto View Post
    I had a laugh, make that three.

    I have never been able to relate the effusive descriptions of wine writers to any mental image they
    are supposed to conjure.

    Earth tones? Berries? Mean nothing to me.

    So, ditto I am afraid, for similar coffee descriptions. Berries, citrus, overtones of this and lingering after-taste of that....all lost on me.

    Not saying others won't relate to the desciptions. Just saying I can't.
    Hi Robusto
    I know the feeling! Although, I thought the berries were a myth - until I tried the Harrar Longberry! Made a flat white taste more like boysenberry ice cream than anything else! I was shocked! So I guess there's hope for us yet :-)
    So maybe try the Harrar - you might be surprised!

    Matt

  21. #21
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by an3_bolt View Post
    Hey Chokkidog,

    Just wondering regarding the Puerta Verde.....Got some yummy stuff from it but i am interested in that red apple......any hints to what depth you are going to get that one, or any other profile notes such as development past FC that might put me towards that area?
    Every roast is like another little Christmas present........kind of exciting!

    Cheers
    Hey an3_bolt,
    Interesting, complex coffee that one, very nice! I have found to get the 'most' out of it, in terms of complexity, it's best roasted to a
    light to 'less than medium'.
    I have a customer that does press coffee in their cellar door and the Finca Puerta Verde (Green Door Farm) is excellent for that application.
    Not quite so excellent at a darker espresso roast where it becomes a bit one dimensional.
    My profile for it goes like this:

    #load and soak with no air or fuel until just after the turn @ 62* (total soak time is 1min 10 secs)
    #air at two thirds until 100*, then full air.
    #steady ramp til the start of 1st crack at 192*, 11 mins after turn.
    #rolling 1st crack starts at 196*.
    #reduce air by one third at 195* then reopen to full at 205*.
    #rolling first crack tapers off from 206* then pull the roast at 210* (2.5 mins from the very first snaps of 1st C).
    #total roast time including soak; 14.5 mins. I use residual bean mass heat to finish the last 30 seconds.
    (roaster-HGSR5)

    I found that building heat into the roast from the turn and then max heat from 160* -180* for 2 mins, before tapering off heat input,
    works the best. Heat values will vary according to your roasting method, volume to capacity ratio and the usual variables
    but if too much heat is applied after 170* then this bean will start a prolonged 1st crack from 185* and the roast will end up very uneven.

    I have pulled the roast at different times from 206* to 213* but 210* is good.
    Remember that the actual heat values I've quoted are what works for me, use them as a guide to correlate to your situation.

    The 'red apple skin acidity' of my Puerta Verde roasts is tasted on the front and mid palate and isn't there on the finish where the caramel and cocoa
    take over, nice and sweet too. Do you get cherry notes?
    Like I said before, the darker the roast, the more 'roasty' it becomes.
    Milk, of course, changes everything!

    Cheers.

  22. #22
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post

    a serious question out of interest, Chokkidog - I've always wondered where a lot of the flavour descriptors come from.
    Is there a particular brew technique used that gives the most variations? From what I've read, traditional cupping with light roasted beans seems to give a wider range of those subtle flavours - has that been our experience? My comment was really just that straight espresso or in milk doesn't seem to give as much variety. I've certainly been getting lots of berries (even through soy!) with the Harrar, and Uru at 10 days is a choc monster.
    Just still looking for leather and tobbaco!

    Cheers
    Matt
    Hi Matt,
    You pretty much answered the question. When you read people prattling on about the wondrous qualities
    of this or that bean, it is, for the most part, done from tasting cupping roasts.
    Where I go cupping, the roasts are typically pulled about 30 seconds after 1st crack.
    After this there is an increasing influence from the roast which will diminish the complexity and bean character.

    It's awesome to see that coffee beans have all these different flavour elements (800 identified flavonoids, wine only has 200)
    and you can cup at home if you can spare a small batch of beans. You can cup in the formal sense or use a press or
    pour-over and you can push the roast a little further than the 30 secs but don't go over halfway between 1st and 2nd
    for this type of exercise.

    Good espresso roasts are a different thing altogether and for my money the most stunning coffees are those that
    have loads of chocolate and caramel sweetness but are overlaid with spiciness or earthiness, blueberry or plum or
    sweet orange or cherry, vanilla, honey or blackcurrant. Some flavours do carry through into dark roasts, I don't know why
    but I'm glad that Andy can work it out!!

    cheers
    DesigningByCoffee likes this.

  23. #23
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Wow - thanks for that Chokkidog - you've cleared up a number of queries I've had for years!
    I have certainly experienced your descriptions of espresso taste qualities - but sounds like some lighter sample roasts and the plunger might be in order to gain some wider appreciation of the bean!
    But these descriptions are probably where the confusion (and obvious frustration for some) has come from for many in the past. I personally was always wondering if I was roasting incorrectly when I didn't get 'green apple' or 'grapefruit' through my espresso or flat white. But if you're unlikely to get it at this roast depth - I can stop hunting and enjoy the chocolate!
    But will certainly have a lash at cupping :-)

    Appreciate your input!
    Matt



    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Hi Matt,
    You pretty much answered the question. When you read people prattling on about the wondrous qualities
    of this or that bean, it is, for the most part, done from tasting cupping roasts.
    Where I go cupping, the roasts are typically pulled about 30 seconds after 1st crack.
    After this there is an increasing influence from the roast which will diminish the complexity and bean character.

    It's awesome to see that coffee beans have all these different flavour elements (800 identified flavonoids, wine only has 200)
    and you can cup at home if you can spare a small batch of beans. You can cup in the formal sense or use a press or
    pour-over and you can push the roast a little further than the 30 secs but don't go over halfway between 1st and 2nd
    for this type of exercise.

    Good espresso roasts are a different thing altogether and for my money the most stunning coffees are those that
    have loads of chocolate and caramel sweetness but are overlaid with spiciness or earthiness, blueberry or plum or
    sweet orange or cherry, vanilla, honey or blackcurrant. Some flavours do carry through into dark roasts, I don't know why
    but I'm glad that Andy can work it out!!

    cheers

  24. #24
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    roast it enjoy it.

    The rest can just be details that get in the way of having fun.

    Some beans noticeably improve after 3-4 days.

    if at first you aren't certain about a coffee put it aside for a few days and try it again.

    Isn't the best part of doing it yourself is the only person you have to keep happy is your self?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Just still looking for leather and tobbaco!
    Cheers
    Matt
    I remember reading "Old Cigar Box" as the description of how a coffee tasted when i bought it once and thought yeah yeah... thats not very likely.

    But upon taking my first sip, I was blown away by the leather and tobacco aftertaste. If only i remembered which bean it was

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus78 View Post
    I remember reading "Old Cigar Box" as the description of how a coffee tasted when i bought it once and thought yeah yeah... thats not very likely.

    But upon taking my first sip, I was blown away by the leather and tobacco aftertaste. If only i remembered which bean it was
    Perhaps it was the Cuban Turquino, famous for both attributes.

  27. #27
    Senior Member mwcalder05's Avatar
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    I remember my first sip of the Cuban Turquino. Back then I didn't know as much about coffee as I do now but i remember almost spitting it out since it just tasted like a cigar! Quite a different but amazing bean. Since it is a softer bean, the roaster does a less harsh roast so it doesn't scorch the ends otherwise known as tipping!

    Mike

  28. #28
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    I found this bean, changed when i tasted it. The smell when i first ground the bean and then when i extracted it had a somewhat unique smell to it that i can relate to leather and tobacco (even though i have never smoked in my life). However when i tasted it, it had a somewhat different taste than what i expected, dry in the mouth a nice dirty if that makes sense. Either way i really like this bean..

    This comment is coming from someone who finds it hard to pick what i'm tasting and translating it


  29. #29
    Brenton badbudgie's Avatar
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    I for one enjoy reading other peoples descriptors of a coffee roast. As a novice roaster it is difficult for me to put into words what I taste and having all of you describing what I am tasting helps no end. At the end of the day when I first take a sip of a home roasted coffee and stop and say to myself 'damn thats a great cup of coffee' I know the work has not been in vane. So here's to all you people with great descriptive vocabularies ,I raise my cup.

  30. #30
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Hi Badbudgie,

    As much as i do my best to try and describe what i taste in the coffee i roast i also struggle with describing what i can taste. All the aside i love roasting my own coffee. Like you its good to make a coffee and take a first sip and go its a great cup of coffee!

    Cheers,

    Chris
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