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Thread: Sulawesi Tana Toraja

  1. #1
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    Sulawesi Tana Toraja

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Any tips on how to get the best from this bean?

    I bought it on Beanbay as I loved the description from Andy "thick, viscous spicy syrup with low acidity and velvet mouthfeel", but I can't seem to hit the lovely mouthfeel and just get bitterness! Apologies for my lack of superlatives but my tastebuds are not that refined.

    I've gone through two batches one roasted to CS7 and one to CS9/10 in a Behmor on the P3 C profile. The CS7 batch had too much spice as an SO but was good under milk. I'm still on the CS9/10 batch and find this too earthy as an SO and lacking that velvet mouthfeel. I've tried it on brew temps of 92, 94 and 95 with 94 the preferred option. I've also tried messing with the fineness to tighten and loosen the pour but still not getting there.

    Maybe it's just my dodgy tastebuds....!

  2. #2
    Ant
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    I agree. Andy's description was good so I bought 5kg but I am yet to find a roast profile that I enjoy. I have tried just before second crack and also rolling second to no avail. Perhaps I need to go even darker?

  3. #3
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    How long is your overall roast?
    I've done a few indos (though not this specific one), and they seem to like a fairly gentle ramping roast - 17-18mins with drop just on first crack IMHO. What does the behmor give? Could the bitterness could come from a roast that's too quick?
    Matt

  4. #4
    Ant
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    I can't control the roast profile on my hottop (I went with the poverty pack). I tend to prefer a darker roast but I will try dropping just after first crack and see how that goes.... I am roasting some now.

  5. #5
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    I have read that changing the weight can impact on the final profile on fixed input machines? That less beans can slow a roast?
    I roast with a corretto, so have that adjustability - so maybe 50g less and take to the same CS level - see what happens? :-)

  6. #6
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Matt is on the money.

    Indonesian beans are mostly soft to only medium density and don't like aggressive roast profiles.
    Avoid using a profile that works well for hard African, Yemeni or Central American beans. A 'soft' start, with a turn temp of no more than 60C
    and gentle, even, ramp will do the job for this bean. A 16-17 min roast with 1st crack around the 12-13 min will give good results.
    Too often, we concentrate only on the end of the roast to achieve the required result for the
    different types of beans and ignore what is happening in the early stages.
    I pull this bean at the very start of 2nd crack ( the scouts ).

    cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Indonesian beans are mostly soft to only medium density and don't like aggressive roast profiles.
    A 'soft' start, with a turn temp of no more than 60C
    cheers
    Thanks for sharing this info. Was wondering of you could elaborate on what the 'soft' start will achieve?

    Pete

  8. #8
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    What I mean by a 'soft start' is simply not to have too hot a load temp and to not let the roast accelerate
    too quickly at the beginning. If you are too aggressive early it can lead to an uneven drying phase and 'evaporation wave'.

    The evaporation wave is the process by which free moisture is driven out of the bean. Initially, the bean's free moisture conducts heat energy
    into the bean. As the centre of the bean approaches 100C the free water begins to evaporate from the inside to the outside of the bean.

    In low to medium density beans the cell structure is more open and the number of cells per cubic millimetre, is less than in hard beans.
    This more open structure allows a faster transfer of heat into the bean which, in turn, will more readily give up it's moisture.

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    So, if I understand you right, a too aggressive start would show as uneven drying. This could not be corrected by, say holding the temp below 150C until things look even and then proceeding with the roast, because some beans would be "over-dried" and these would not have enough moisture to complete the processes in the later stages of the roast and result in the bitterness described above.

    Assuming I've got that right, is there a taste that would indicate I'm drying too slowly? I'm guessing a flat, baked taste, but could it be distinguished from tastes produced by other stages of the roast being too long?

    Pete

  10. #10
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Not a lot happens to bean roast character before the 'Maillard Effect' kicks in at about 150C (til 170C). Baking
    typically occurs from 1st to 2nd crack with insufficient airflow and/or reduced heat input resulting in unbalanced roast dynamics and
    a flatlining or negative temp increase, giving too long a time between 1st and 2nd crack/end of roast.
    Baked roasts taste bitter, metallic and lifeless.

    I'm sure that there is a point where the drying cycle is too long and that this may or may not affect the eventual taste profile of the roast
    but some really 'fresh crop' coffee with around 14% free moisture is given a long drying time. It might be possible to impart negative
    taste characters if there is insufficient airflow during the drying phase, resulting in 'stewing' the beans in their own steam
    but I'm only speculating here.
    I believe that some roasters in Germany twice roast their beans by roasting into the drying phase (but not more than 150C)
    then cooling and re-roasting until completion.

    There's not really enough info in the OP to determine what the issue is. I would say at CS7, sourness, rather than bitterness would be evident.
    If the inside of the bean is being dried too fast and therefore unevenly, during the drying phase, then internal scorching could be the outcome
    in the more developed roasts (CS9-10).
    Internal scorching will give bitter cup characters.


    I normally aim for a temp increase of 10C/min by 150C, 7C/min @ 180C and 5C/min by the end of 1st crack til the end.
    I aim for about 4 minutes from the onset of 1st crack to the onset of 2nd crack.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Beanz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    I normally aim for a temp increase of 10C/min by 150C, 7C/min @ 180C and 5C/min by the end of 1st crack til the end.
    I aim for about 4 minutes from the onset of 1st crack to the onset of 2nd crack.
    Great feedback. Typically what temp would you be aiming to load the beans at and what rate of rise from loading to 150C. From your comments I understand 10/min from 150 so guessing you are slowing the RoR on reaching 150

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    Try this. . Behmor roaster
    300g - 1lb - P5 - C

    mine hits 1st crack with 3-4 mins to go. At that point I crack open the door and hold it open with the brush handle.

    keep it going until 2nd crack starts (you may need to press + a couple of times)

    As soon as 2nd crack starts, hit cool.

    I bag my roast and consume at 2 to 3 weeks post roast.

    Good luck

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    Thanks for all the advice here guys!

    Just some additional info on the Behmor too. The manual recommends the P1/2 profile for Centrals, P3 for Brazilians, Africans, SE Asia, Malabar and the P4/5 for low grown island coffees. The P3 worked really well for Sumatra Lake Toba beans.

    I don't have a temp probe so cannot tell what I'm getting up to but the P3 C Profile takes 21.5mins to complete the roast. The temp profile does show a slowish ramp as 1 min climb then 1 min at 70% power, 10 mins at 80% then full blast to the end.

    The P5 profile gives a gentler ramp so I will give this one a try too as it's 1 min climb then 5.5 mins climb at 70% power, 8.5 mins at 80% then full blast to the end.

  14. #14
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting visual look at the Behmor profiles (what the different Profiles actually do) - I don't have a behmor but this is a really interesting comparison for what they recommend works well for different bean origins when compared to my Corretto technique… :-)

    Chocolate Alchemy Behmor 1600 for roasting cocoa

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    Matt, I've never considered roasting my own cocoa beans but I do LOVE chocolate! I feel another addiction coming on

    I wonder if there's an aussie Beanbay for cocoa beans somewhere

  16. #16
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Here's an interesting visual look at the Behmor profiles (what the different Profiles actually do) - I don't have a behmor but this is a really interesting comparison for what they recommend works well for different bean origins when compared to my Corretto technique… :-)

    Chocolate Alchemy Behmor 1600 for roasting cocoa
    Those profiles are straight out of the Behmor manual. Nothing new there at all.


    Java "When all else fails, read the manual." phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  17. #17
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    "Typically what temp would you be aiming to load the beans at and what rate of rise from loading to 150C. From your comments I understand 10/min from 150 so guessing you are slowing the RoR on reaching 150" quoted from Beanz post #11.

    Load temp for beans depends entirely on the type of set up you have, where it is located, what environmental factors are influencing the roast in any given situation, ambient temperature of the room (or outside), the ambient temp of the beans and the charge weight itself and the charge weight relative to total capacity. Where thermocouple probes are located...... Lots of things!

    As I stated above I aim for a turn temp of 60C, so the load temp starts to change in Autumn as things cool down. The roastery is air-conditioned but I mainly utilise that in summer to moderate the ambient environmental temp. In winter I turn it on when I'm packing the beans and doing other stuff!!

    The RoR up to 150C goes something like this.......... Turn temp 60C RoR -2/3C/min, @80C RoR 25C/min, @100C RoR 21C/min, @120C RoR 17C/min,
    @140C RoR 13C/min. There is a (5%) reduction in heat input at 145C. (and a further 35% reduction @187.5C and another 20% @ 210C, finishing with 0 heat input just before discharge)

    I don't get bothered if I'm a degree off my mark, things will settle down and over-reacting will only stuff things up. I prefer to be above rather than below my target RoR as it's easier to tame a roast than recover a fallling RoR. It's normal for some fluctuation in RoR (10/11.......10/11.......10/11 etc; you get the drift) tho' I do like it to be pretty stable over 180C, in each section of the roast, up to the end, (i.e. 7C/min, bit of a wobble through 1st crack then 5C/min after 1st crack to the end of the roast, whether I stop the roast at 2nd crack scouts or before.

    All of the above is what works for me, on my setup, achieving the results that I'm happy with and using the temp readings off the data logger as they are, relative to the progress of the roast. Other setups will have different readings for a similarly great outcome, so interpret this data relative to your own situation;
    we're all different.

  18. #18
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    Those profiles are straight out of the Behmor manual. Nothing new there at all.


    Java "When all else fails, read the manual." phile
    Yeah, it's funny - I thought I'd seen them somewhere, but I had a look in the Behmor manual I've got on file (how nerdy is that - I haven't even got a behmor!) and it didn't seem to have them, only a description - must be an old manual - that's why I googled those pics…

    But the actual profiles are very interesting - I'm intrigued to know why centrals like the 'flat out' type roast - but all else like the ramping style. And that ramping style is very similar to my corretto profile - it's just that I back off at the end of rolling first crack - which is probably what the 'brush handle in the door' does!

  19. #19
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    The manuals have changed over the years, however; the profiles can still be found in the current 220-240v English manual as posted on the Behmor site.


    Java "Manual? What's a manual?" phile
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  20. #20
    Ant
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    I just tried my Sulawesi Tana Toraja after day 2 and so far the roast just on first crack batch was terrible. The rolling first crack batch was much better but still not great but I suspect this batch will improve when allowed to degass a week or two. I have already tried rolling second crack without success so all in all I just don't think this bean appeals to my taste.

  21. #21
    Member kammy's Avatar
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    Sad to hear you guys are not enjoying this bean.
    I'm a novice roaster but have had spectacular success with my popcorn poppers. I have two. The breville is fast and hot. Salawesi tana toraja all done at 4:50 min. Kambrook is slower and I'm roasting these in 130gm batches to 12:30 min.
    Fabulous as a double short. Spice up front followed by a rich fruity intreaging middle and a sweet lingering finish. A definite favorite for us. Drinking from 3 days on.
    Cheers.

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    Also had great success with these beans. Roasting in an open corretto, first crack around 12:30-13 mins and all done at CS9 (start of second crack) around 17mins. Agree with Chokidog about ramp speed, 10, then 7 then 5 degrees/min works for me. Fantastic as a SO espresso but also awesome mixed 50:50 with Mexico Arabigo :-)

  23. #23
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ant View Post
    I just tried my Sulawesi Tana Toraja after day 2 and so far the roast just on first crack batch was terrible. The rolling first crack batch was much better but still not great but I suspect this batch will improve when allowed to degass a week or two. I have already tried rolling second crack without success so all in all I just don't think this bean appeals to my taste.
    I've never had nor am I aware of any bean that tastes good when pulled prior to the completion of 1st crack. Even the lightest roasted Colombians need to be taken completely through 1st crack. With that said that you've only really tried one roast of this bean that had any chance of being good, the one you took to rolling 2nd crack. Before you give up on it I suggest you try some other roasts done to up around 2nd crack.


    Java "Love the spice!" phile
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  24. #24
    Senior Member Beanz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    "
    The RoR up to 150C goes something like this.......... Turn temp 60C RoR -2/3C/min, @80C RoR 25C/min, @100C RoR 21C/min, @120C RoR 17C/min,
    @140C RoR 13C/min. There is a (5%) reduction in heat input at 145C. (and a further 35% reduction @187.5C and another 20% @ 210C, finishing with 0 heat input just before discharge)

    .
    Thanks Chokkidog this was exactlty the feedback I was seeking it gives me some good guidelines and comparisons to use as a home roaster. I am happy to see I am heading in the right direction but still plenty of things to learn

  25. #25
    Ant
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    javaphile, i had already tried a couple of batches just before second crack and also rolling second crack without success. I then tried a batch at the start of first crack and also a rolling first crack at the suggestion of others. I still have 3kg of beans so I am not giving up yet! I am roasting another batch right now which I think I will take a little further into second crack and see how that turns out. I think this is a bean that really needs time to develop.

  26. #26
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Hi Ant,
    You shouldn't need to take it into rolling 2nd but give it a go.
    You have already tried the beans a couple of days post roast,
    leave a batch for at least 7 days and try them over the following 3-4 days.
    Can you post more details about your roast profile?
    Gretsch likes this.

  27. #27
    Ant
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    Chokkidog, I use a hottop roaster but its the poverty pack model without the programmable function. That said, the roast profile starts at 75c and ramps up to 215 towards the very end. A typical roast takes around 22mins. Yesterday I roasted another batch but took it much further into second crack (these beans roll into second crack for ages) and I finally have success. The flavour profile has changed leaps and bounds. I will see if it develops even further over the week. I don't think this will be a bean I will buy again but at least I can drink it happily now.

  28. #28
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    There's nothing like overcoming a challenge!!
    The beans in Beanbay are all great, sure, we all have our preferences but
    when we find a bean's sweet spot with our own roasting setups....... only good things come!

  29. #29
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Haven't tried this as a SO, but have been using it in my espresso / latte blends (preblend 50% brazil 25% Harrar 25 % Indo to CS9+) and it certainly suits my palate better than the Sulawesi Blue. Best at least 10 days post-roast I reckon.

  30. #30
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ant View Post
    I just tried my Sulawesi Tana Toraja after day 2 and so far the roast just on first crack batch was terrible. The rolling first crack batch was much better but still not great but I suspect this batch will improve when allowed to degass a week or two. I have already tried rolling second crack without success so all in all I just don't think this bean appeals to my taste.
    It seems to me you have roasted both above and below the optimum roast.

    For espresso I really prefer *ALL* my beans just at the onset of second crack. Before that and they are very fruity and (for espresso) somewhat lively or sourish--which is fine for pour over. Once second crack is rolling all the fruit taste is gone and the cocoa taste is starting to turn to ash.

    Of course--YMMV.

    Greg
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    Junior Member eltoro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dazzler View Post
    Try this. . Behmor roaster
    300g - 1lb - P5 - C
    This worked well for me. Cheers!

  32. #32
    Ant
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    Greg, I am normally like you. I typically roast most beans at the start of second crack however this didn't work for the sulawesi. For me, I found it needed to go a long way into rolling sc. Much further than I would normally take a roast.

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    Hi Eltoro,

    I purchased these Indonesian beans for a pre roast blend, and this particular one on Andy's wonderful description, but now also want to roast them in the Behmor as a SO for post blending.

    >> Originally Posted by Dazzler
    >> Try this. . Behmor roaster
    >> 300g - 1lb - P5 - C

    Quote Originally Posted by eltoro View Post
    This worked well for me. Cheers!
    Thanks for the vote of confidence on this Behmor setup for this bean and also to Dazzler for posting the setup in the first place. As there was only 4 days between Dazzler's post and your post I'm wondering when you roasted and whether "worked well" refers to how the roast seemed to go and/or the actual taste in the cup?

    Also, I'm wondering how you ran the roast? Did you also wedge the door open upon hitting 1st crack and then hit cool on 2nd crack or did you do something else entirely.

    Cheers and Thanks,
    Rob

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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Haven't posted back on this one for a while because frankly the results have been terrible

    However I just though I would update on a success story at last!

    Just tried these beans today 13 days rest. Dialled in as usual re weight and time of shot but the results in the cup tasted terrible still. I usually aim for an espresso shot in 30 secs with 19/20g of beans. I did some experimenting and went for a course grind with an overfilled basket and it tasted awesome with some lovely choc undertones! Final weight was just under 22g.



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