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Thread: Help - underdeveloped roasts

  1. #1
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    Help - underdeveloped roasts

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi Guys,

    I've done a couple of dozen roasts with my Behmor and have generally been pretty happy - although I always felt my resultant espressos were a little on the sour side (I don't have a particularly refined palate at this stage - although I am working on it - drank supermarket pre-ground coffee for years without complaining :-)

    I recently bought an Atago refractometer and it's been quite revelatory. I am under-extracting in a big way (12 - 15%). I have fiddled with dose, yield and time - but mainly have tried going for a finer grind to increase TDS and extraction. This has improved things but not as much as I would like.

    To cut a long story a little shorter, I then thought that maybe it was the beans. I bought a bag of commercial roasted beans from a nearby roaster and they are giving better extractions and results in the cup. Definitely less sour. Results for the Atago suggest extraction closer to the desired zone ~ 17 - 19%.

    I usually roast about 300g in the Behmor. Put it on P5 manual until about 30 seconds after first crack (~ 9 mins), then P2 manual and increase drum speed. Normally turning off (~ 11 mins) just before or at second crack. Then rapidly cool.

    I reckon I'm at about CS 8 in terms of colour. The pro-roasted beans look CS 11-12.

    My question is, is going darker a simple way to ensure better development? Or is there something else I should be doing?

    Thanks,
    Paul

  2. #2
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Hi Paul
    If they’re sour, they are most likely underdeveloped.

    I’d try first taking them a little darker (which is giving extra development time post first crack). Maybe go 1min post first crack before P2? Or P2 at the same time but take them into second crack a little longer? You might be surprised how much further you can go without creating bitterness…

    Then try stretching out the time to your current CS8 roast depth (also giving extra development, but not increasing caramelisation). Maybe adding few extra beans in the Behmor? Or maybe it’s less - I think it is counter intuitive on the Behmor! I’ll let a Behmor user chip in on the impact of load weight

    Cheers Matt

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    What espresso machine are you using? Could your water temperature be a little low? Low temp = sour

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    We need more info to help you properly. What beans are you roasting and are you taking this approach every time? That's a hot roast profile you're using (which is often necessary in the Behmore), but it might be part of the problem.
    If you're using C American's try roasting 250g on mostly P1 auto, after a decent preheat of 2.5-3min (aim for a B temp reading of at least 75 before you load). This will provide decent heat at the start, but stretch the drying phase a little. The fan will drop the ET when it kicks in so a couple of minutes after this happens go to P5 manual, then high drum speed about 30-60sec before first crack. P2 & C at first crack as usual then slow the drum again before the end of rolling first crack. Hold on for a good 60sec after the end of rolling first crack then cool.
    If you're using softer beans you can do something similar but start on P2 auto. Not sure how much this helps, but worth a try.
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    Thanks Guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by saeco_user View Post
    What espresso machine are you using? Could your water temperature be a little low? Low temp = sour
    Profitec 700. I have it set at 94ºC (I realise that may not be happening at the brewhead)

    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    We need more info to help you properly. What beans are you roasting and are you taking this approach every time? That's a hot roast profile you're using (which is often necessary in the Behmore), but it might be part of the problem.
    If you're using C American's try roasting 250g on mostly P1 auto, after a decent preheat of 2.5-3min (aim for a B temp reading of at least 75 before you load). This will provide decent heat at the start, but stretch the drying phase a little. The fan will drop the ET when it kicks in so a couple of minutes after this happens go to P5 manual, then high drum speed about 30-60sec before first crack. P2 & C at first crack as usual then slow the drum again before the end of rolling first crack. Hold on for a good 60sec after the end of rolling first crack then cool.
    If you're using softer beans you can do something similar but start on P2 auto. Not sure how much this helps, but worth a try.
    Costa Rican Tarrazu and Peruvian Ceja de Selva - bought from CS. I haven't been blending - generally I'll alternate 300g of either of these.

    Yes, I'm pretty much using the same approach each time. I'm not preheating - so maybe that might help.

  6. #6
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgseye View Post
    Thanks Guys.



    Profitec 700. I have it set at 94ºC (I realise that may not be happening at the brewhead)



    Costa Rican Tarrazu and Peruvian Ceja de Selva - bought from CS. I haven't been blending - generally I'll alternate 300g of either of these.

    Yes, I'm pretty much using the same approach each time. I'm not preheating - so maybe that might help.
    Ok, the Costa Rican is about as hard a bean as you can get and the Peru should be reasonably forgiving to roast as well. I'd say there's two possibilities:

    1. The roasts are fine, but for the level that you've roasted them to 94deg is too hot. I've heard 91-92deg is better for 'lighter' roasts when making espresso. Can't confirm this myself as I've never had a PIDed machine.

    2. The roasts are a touch underdeveloped. I've had some great results with Tarrazu beans and actually just finished another enjoyable bag the other day. Here's a pic of my notes from a batch I did a month ago. If you can decipher them you're welcome to try to replicate the result. If you need help understanding them just ask.

    Dimal and oliverm like this.

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    Awesome - great notes. Thanks Leroy.

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    You can try increasing drum speed when afterburner kicks. P2 manual is a bit too low, try P3 or even P4. Not sure what you meant by "rapidly cool" but external cooling might help.

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    No P2 manual at first crack is what Andy and Joe recommend on the 230v machines. P3 at first crack is better on the 110v version apparently. I always hit P2 and C at first crack and have found it works a treat. I also whip the beans out about a minute into the cooling cycle and cool them with a fan.

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    25% heat at first crack till end of roast will probably stall my roast and end up underdeveloped. We all know the Behmor is very sensitive to voltage so I suppose it will vary from setup to setup even it is the same 220v-240v model.

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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    I have noticed with a bean temp probe that hitting P2 at first crack usually causes a stall in rate of rise. This is with 450-500g roasts, so with a smaller batch would probably be ok.

    You could use P3 as suggested by others.

    Cheers

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JojoS View Post
    25% heat at first crack till end of roast will probably stall my roast and end up underdeveloped. We all know the Behmor is very sensitive to voltage so I suppose it will vary from setup to setup even it is the same 220v-240v model.
    Are you using the 230v model? I thought you were using the 110v. Is it you that has done the SSR mod?

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artman View Post
    I have noticed with a bean temp probe that hitting P2 at first crack usually causes a stall in rate of rise. This is with 450-500g roasts, so with a smaller batch would probably be ok.

    You could use P3 as suggested by others.

    Cheers
    That's good to know. To be clear Andy and Joe recommend P2 at first crack on a 200g batch so P3 probably is better for batches of >300g. I'll have to remember that as I try to do more large roasts. P2 seems to work well for 250g batches.

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    Senior Member Alexpid's Avatar
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    The last roast I did on my behmor, I combined the two. I did p1 manual with double drum speed until 1.crack. Then p2 until 1:00 min left where I pushed p3 to prevent stalling the roast

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Are you using the 230v model? I thought you were using the 110v. Is it you that has done the SSR mod?
    Yes I am using a 220-240v model running at 220v here in Hong Kong with an SSVR mod. I should have pointed out that OP's charge weight is 300 grams and that is why I suggested to use P3 manual instead of P2.

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    I read somewhere once that a simple check with underextracted espresso was to taste / test the same roast as a drip coffee.
    If this also underextracts than the problem is likely to be with underdeveloped roasts and not some other problem.
    I'll look up and try to find the source.

  17. #17
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JojoS View Post
    Yes I am using a 220-240v model running at 220v here in Hong Kong with an SSVR mod. I should have pointed out that OP's charge weight is 300 grams and that is why I suggested to use P3 manual instead of P2.
    Yeah I got ya now. I'm very much in 250g batch mode so it's good to know that as I try more bigger batches I should probably use P3 at first crack. I really must get that BT probe set up so I've got better feedback on roast progression.

  18. #18
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeco_user View Post
    I read somewhere once that a simple check with underextracted espresso was to taste / test the same roast as a drip coffee.
    If this also underextracts than the problem is likely to be with underdeveloped roasts and not some other problem.
    I'll look up and try to find the source.
    That would make sense I guess.

    Anyone know whether 94deg is too hot for espresso with lighter roasts?

  19. #19
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Anyone know whether 94deg is too hot for espresso with lighter roasts?
    A hotter brew temp / finer grind / slower pour can help to tame a lighter roast…
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  20. #20
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    A hotter brew temp / finer grind / slower pour can help to tame a lighter roast…
    Looks like Paul has tried the finer grind approach so maybe his roasts are underdeveloped then.
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  21. #21
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Looks like Paul has tried the finer grind approach so maybe his roasts are underdeveloped then.
    Reckon so too
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Reckon so too

    Thanks Everyone,

    Yes, it's sounding like that.

    I reckon I'll try the P3 at first crack tweak and see how that goes.



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