Results 1 to 17 of 17
Like Tree21Likes
  • 1 Post By Yelta
  • 1 Post By Yelta
  • 4 Post By readeral
  • 1 Post By noonar
  • 3 Post By DesigningByCoffee
  • 1 Post By readeral
  • 2 Post By Yelta
  • 2 Post By Yelta
  • 1 Post By noonar
  • 5 Post By Dimal

Thread: Roasting colour guide.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,866

    Roasting colour guide.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Just found this image on Pinterest, Have noticed the odd inquiry for the Coffee Snobs member/colour card which has been out of stock for quite some time, this may help.

    For the benefit of those who are unaware, don't venture into the area of Italian roast (way to dark for most tastes) and, certainly not Spanish (should read charcoal)

    MrFreddofrog likes this.

  2. #2
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,091
    The relative nature of printers ability to reproduce correct hue saturation and lightness is the biggest driver for me (and maybe others) wanting a CS card, but this is certainly quite a nice diagram.

    I love how 'American roast' is 210, when in reality, Starbucks (proxy for a significant majority of American coffee) would be at the Vienna/French end of the scale!

  3. #3
    Guest
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Perth WA
    Posts
    461
    Probably the scientist in me but surely there is a graphic designer amongst us that could pin point the CMYK values. Then the only problem is finding a printer to reproduce the colours.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,866
    Have to admit I had a CS card early on in my roasting career, used it as a basic guide for a few roasts, a good learning tool, however once you get a feel for the process everything becomes almost automatic, I know exactly what I want and get it 99 times out of 100.

    I can understand the guide being handy for beginners.
    Dimal likes this.

  5. #5
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,091
    For me, the CS card is all about sharing with other people (being able to accurately describe my roast) not to help me get a roast right.
    Dimal, trentski, magnafunk and 1 others like this.

  6. #6
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    MortalCoil
    Posts
    451
    Certified standard CMYK colour reproduction I am very familiar with. The main problem would be obtaining professionally shot colour standard certified images of standard roasted coffee beans... and even then they can only ever be used as "rough guide" as the end colour of a roasted bean is not a guarantee of it's roast depth. The same green beans (same batch, same supplier, same age, same storage etc) would have to be prepared and roasted to an agreed standard profile in order to get somewhere near an acceptable roasted bean colour standard... and because every type of bean roasts differently we would need a chart for every type of bean roasted to a standard profile under the same conditions and to the same end point - very difficult to control. Standardisation is about removing variables that effect outcome. The beans is one of the biggest variables, next would probably be roasting set up. That's standard... just sayin :-)
    Dimal likes this.

  7. #7
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Millthorpe NSW
    Posts
    2,038
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Probably the scientist in me but surely there is a graphic designer amongst us that could pin point the CMYK values. Then the only problem is finding a printer to reproduce the colours.
    I could certainly do this for you (in fact anyone with photoshop could - well the values anyway! Perfect print repro is a little harder!) – but based upon what image or beans as ideal? And what did those beans taste like?!

    The biggest issue with roasting to external colour is that it doesn't take into account any roast spread. This video shows some really interesting analysis demonstrating how darker beans on the outside may overall be roasted quite lightly…

    https://coffeecourses.com/course/mas...oast-profiles/

    Therefore, in theory, on that chart you could actually 'bake' a bean getting flat muted flavours while still only getting to a cinnamon roast colour, or go to french roast colour but maintain a sour, underdeveloped flavour. External colour won't show that very well.

    Like Yelta, these images are an interesting reference, but IMHO once you know about where first & second crack begin and end, the best tool you can have is a stopwatch measuring how long it took you to get there, and a note book to record your times and tasting notes. And a temp probe is even better…
    Dimal, Yelta and noonar like this.

  8. #8
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,091
    So that's the benefit (for newbies) of referencing temperature and colour on the style of diagram Yelta posted - cause if it's Vienna colour depth at 210 drop, you've got problems... but then you've also got to account for relative probe temps anyway! My 200 is 208 on my probe... *shrug*
    noonar likes this.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,866
    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    I could certainly do this for you (in fact anyone with photoshop could - well the values anyway! Perfect print repro is a little harder!) – but based upon what image or beans as ideal? And what did those beans taste like?!

    The biggest issue with roasting to external colour is that it doesn't take into account any roast spread. This video shows some really interesting analysis demonstrating how darker beans on the outside may overall be roasted quite lightly…

    https://coffeecourses.com/course/mas...oast-profiles/

    Therefore, in theory, on that chart you could actually 'bake' a bean getting flat muted flavours while still only getting to a cinnamon roast colour, or go to french roast colour but maintain a sour, underdeveloped flavour. External colour won't show that very well.

    Like Yelta, these images are an interesting reference, but IMHO once you know about where first & second crack begin and end, the best tool you can have is a stopwatch measuring how long it took you to get there, and a note book to record your times and tasting notes. And a temp probe is even better…
    Well said.

    Yep, my roast monitoring equipment consists of digital stop watch, multi-meter with temp probe, note pad and pen and of course eyes, ears, and nose.
    DesigningByCoffee and noonar like this.

  10. #10
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    MortalCoil
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Probably the scientist in me but surely there is a graphic designer amongst us that could pin point the CMYK values. Then the only problem is finding a printer to reproduce the colours.
    There are an infinite number of different CMYK values that will give you the same effective colour result on screen. It s how the image is to be reproduced (or veiwed if you prefer) that determines the final CMYK values.

  11. #11
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Millthorpe NSW
    Posts
    2,038
    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    There are an infinite number of different CMYK values that will give you the same effective colour result on screen. It s how the image is to be reproduced (or veiwed if you prefer) that determines the final CMYK values.
    Gotta love Pantone+ guides

  12. #12
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    MortalCoil
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Gotta love Pantone+ guides
    Yep - that's a comprehensive colour guide simplified by a "look up" numbers system and accompanying standard colour recipes for achieving repeatable end results. Even the Pantone books carry a number of disclaimers relating to viewing conditions, like inks, substrates and process. I personally find a comprehensive CMYK tint book a lot more useful. Unfortunately due to the slow demise of print they are very difficult to find. A roasted bean colour guide would have to be as extensive as a PMS book, to account for all the different variables. It might go like this - Look up the bean name and year, cross reference that bean to the roasting device then match the roasting profile EXACTLY as per the colour guide and hey presto your roasted bean SHOULD be the same colour as the guide, assuming the same viewing conditions. Roasted Sidamo Ardi compared to Costa Rican Tarrazu using the same profile and roaster and roasted at the same time look very different in colour - to me.
    Last edited by noonar; 12th December 2016 at 02:18 PM. Reason: fat fingers

  13. #13
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    6,866
    Oh dear! what I had hoped may be of assistance to beginners has turned into another geek fest.

    Not surprising that beginners get the impression that roasting is difficult, it ain't! I've said it before, if you can follow a recipe you can roast coffee.
    MrFreddofrog and chippy like this.

  14. #14
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    MortalCoil
    Posts
    451
    Sorry for over-geeking it Yelta, just tryin to say and substantiate that colour is not a great indicator - I learned a heap more from a colander, wooden spoon, heat gun, stop watch and eyes, ears and nose. You are right, it is not complicated - once you know and understand the signals. I have never used a coffee roasting colour guide.
    Dimal likes this.

  15. #15
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,091
    A newbie wouldn't care, they'd just find this thread, print it off and roll with it and ignore the geekery. That's what I did when I started roasting, despite discussions on colour accuracy I printed something from Sweet Marias, and it was a good start.

    You suggested that the CS roasting card was a basic guide for beginners. For some people that's true, but for others it's not, hence the resultant discussion. I wouldn't be that surprised about it.

  16. #16
    Guest
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Perth WA
    Posts
    461
    TBH I printed the card out when just starting roasting and didn't find it useful.

    Even though not used much now days, I found the city roast --> vienna roast / relative to FC/SC scales more useful in helping understanding what was going on.

  17. #17
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    16,766
    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    My roasting method couldn't be simpler these days....

    1. Great beans from CS
    2. 14+ years of roasting notes
    3. Reasonably accurate set of scales
    4. CS Roast Monitor Software
    5. History of Templates

    Then...
    Boot up Roast Monitor, whack the beans into the BM, put the lid on, start the BM, start the HeatGun on initial setting, start Roast Monitor, manage Profile, stop at desired end point then cool.

    All in all, there couldn't be anything simpler to be honest. Don't even monitor colour these days, just Rate of Rise and Bean Temperature. Makes roasting a joy to do...

    Mal.
    Andy, Magic_Matt, pgrehan and 2 others like this.



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •