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Thread: How raw is a hipster roast?

  1. #1
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    How raw is a hipster roast?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Reading about the Third Wave recently I decided to give it a try and hipster roast a batch to get that peach and citrus in my V60.

    I stopped the popcorn machine 15 seconds after the first pop of the first crack, on the Costa Rica Geisha (maybe I should have picked something cheaper, but I find it to be a difficult bean to roast and thought why not experiment downwards).

    The tan-coloured grounds are harder than usual, and did not produce much froth on either the first or second day of brewing. The first cup was acidic but not very citrussy in the nose; today's is oriented somewhat towards stone fruit but again, mostly devoid of flavour (I expected it to get MORE flavourful over time).

    Is 15 seconds post FC too early? Should I slow down the roast before FC? What is the key to the hipster roast?

  2. #2
    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apicius View Post

    What is the key to the hipster roast?
    Grow a hipster beard, ride a fixie and a sleeve of tatts!!!
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    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    don’t worry about how it actually tastes, just tell everyone how it should taste. emperor’s new clothes effect.

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    I'd probably try increments of 20 secs up to 1&1/2 ( 2 at the most) minutes post first crack. I can't comment specifically on your roast progression (for obvious reasons)

    but generally speaking.... for a filter roast you want the beans to commence first crack at pretty much the same time. This can be tricky,

    unless you're right on top of your tools and technique, as you need enough momentum in the roast to precipitate first crack in a compressed time frame but not so much that you can't control

    your rate of temperature rise (and hence roast development) once first crack starts. If your roast is lagging when first crack starts then you will end up too uneven by the time you want to pull it.

    Third wave is so yesterday...... ;-) but a good filter coffee can be delicious...... sometimes. :-))
    Last edited by chokkidog; 6th April 2018 at 09:58 AM.

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    Senior Member woodhouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    but generally speaking.... for a filter roast you want the beans to commence first crack at pretty much the same time. This can be tricky,

    unless you're right on top of your tools and technique, as you need enough momentum in the roast to precipitate first crack in a compressed time frame but not so much that you can't control

    your rate of temperature rise (and hence roast development) once first crack starts. If your roast is lagging when first crack starts then you will end up too uneven by then time you want to pull it.
    i think you're thinking of nordic roasting....when you get first crack to happen all at once and you drop when your ROR completely crashes, which should be midway through first crack (huge oversimplification, but is what i understand from Rao's CRC).

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    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodhouse View Post
    i think you're thinking of nordic roasting....when you get first crack to happen all at once and you drop when your ROR completely crashes, which should be midway through first crack (huge oversimplification, but is what i understand from Rao's CRC).
    To the first part...no.

    Nordic roasting is completely different from start to finish. I'm referring to roasting for filter coffee.... from (50 tonnes++) experience, not a book.
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    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Iíve found that if you slow the RoR after first crack and drop 6-8 degrees before second crack you certainly in the land of sparkling fruits but whether that is true hipster or just good filter roast practice I canít be certain
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    I'd probably try increments of 20 secs up to 1&1/2 ( 2 at the most) minutes post first crack. I can't comment specifically on your roast progression (for obvious reasons)

    but generally speaking.... for a filter roast you want the beans to commence first crack at pretty much the same time. This can be tricky,

    unless you're right on top of your tools and technique, as you need enough momentum in the roast to precipitate first crack in a compressed time frame but not so much that you can't control

    your rate of temperature rise (and hence roast development) once first crack starts. If your roast is lagging when first crack starts then you will end up too uneven by then time you want to pull it.

    Third wave is so yesterday...... ;-) but a good filter coffee can be delicious...... sometimes. :-))
    Thanks, that is really helpful. 50 tons?! My experience is measured in kg...

    So the assumptions implied:
    - green beans have no flavour (has to be stated)
    - too brown beans have no citrus/peach
    - the window between no flavour and brown is very short
    - the problem is therefore an uneven roast i.e. only a few of the beans are in the sweet spot
    - you recommend stretching the sweet spot
    - the sweet spot is probably when the FC happens for the bean? in which case we want to hit the spot during FC where the most beans are cracking and cool rapidly?

    Is the best way to do this to simply slow the pre-FC warming? I've tried this before but find the beans get too dry before the FC. Well, food for thoughts anyway. I suspect my filter may also be an issue, I'm using the 1-cup V60 filters, maybe should upgrade to 2-cup so the grounds stay in contact with the water longer (they may be underextracted).

    I admit I prefer a stronger roast, but this is a fun experiment nevertheless.

  9. #9
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Hmmm not sure if that is quite the way I'd describe various aspect. I'll try clarify…

    Quote Originally Posted by apicius View Post

    So the assumptions implied:
    - green beans have no flavour (has to be stated) - true
    - too brown beans have no citrus/peach - yes - the caramelisation tends to overtake the sweet fruit flavours
    - the window between no flavour and brown is very short - rightish - it is around a 10į window
    - the problem is therefore an uneven roast i.e. only a few of the beans are in the sweet spot - not generally, if your roast procedure is good
    - you recommend stretching the sweet spot - I'll try clarify below…
    - the sweet spot is probably when the FC happens for the bean? in which case we want to hit the spot during FC where the most beans are cracking and cool rapidly? - ummm
    I'd tend to say for Espresso:

    – The faster you roast to second crack (the main espresso zone) the more acidic the flavour overall (less development inside)
    – BUT roast too slowly to second crack (the main espresso zone) this acidity disappears, leaving some chalky/cocoa/floury flatness with no fruity zing.
    – For espresso, the sweet spot is in here somewhere - fast enough overall to leave good zing, but also taken slow enough and near enough to second crack to give good body (this is IMHO from the overall roast time/development), plus good bite from the caramelisation nearing second crack.

    For filter roasts (and hear me say I'm not a huge filter bloke - but do play with aeropress):

    - If you just drop the beans earlier, you will reduce the caramelisation, giving a less bitter/more fruity filter. HOWEVER you are also reducing the overall time for roasting inside the beans, and this will give more acidity and less body.
    – BUT, if you can slightly slow the overall roast time/profile, but drop the beans at a lower temperature, you should get a lighter, sweeter fruitier bean which retains good body and controls the acidity (preventing 'Melbourne Pucker Face' )

    That's my take.
    And from what I've found, when I roast like this, the beans can be good for both espresso and filter - have your cake and eat it too!

    Cheers Matt

    BTW - this is not even getting into the question of beans! Some beans just do fruit by the bucket - others not at all - at any roast level!

    Welcome to the rabbit hole Neo!
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  10. #10
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apicius View Post
    Thanks, that is really helpful. 50 tons?! My experience is measured in kg...

    So the assumptions implied:
    - green beans have no flavour (has to be stated)
    - too brown beans have no citrus/peach
    - the window between no flavour and brown is very short
    - the problem is therefore an uneven roast i.e. only a few of the beans are in the sweet spot
    - you recommend stretching the sweet spot
    - the sweet spot is probably when the FC happens for the bean? in which case we want to hit the spot during FC where the most beans are cracking and cool rapidly?

    Is the best way to do this to simply slow the pre-FC warming? I've tried this before but find the beans get too dry before the FC. Well, food for thoughts anyway. I suspect my filter may also be an issue, I'm using the 1-cup V60 filters, maybe should upgrade to 2-cup so the grounds stay in contact with the water longer (they may be underextracted).

    I admit I prefer a stronger roast, but this is a fun experiment nevertheless.
    Matt has pretty much covered it very well.
    To add...

    - all beans have 'flavour' at all stages from green to ash, extracting those flavours or liking them are a different dynamic altogether.

    - as a roast develops, less fruit character is evident but as Matt says "there's beans... and then there is beans".
    The fruit character of some Ethiopians and Yemens, for instance, will morph through the development phase from strawberry, stone fruit, citrus to a
    mouth coating, smile triggering chocolate blueberry delight at the start of second crack.

    - Matt covered the sweet spot stretch... if you are roasting for espresso or filter the development time ratio (DTR) should be 20-25% of total roast time and those parameters are what you should be aiming to achieve, before you start experimenting, if that's your bent..
    This obviously means that you should be recording the onset of first crack at between 75-80% of the roast progression. For light filter roasts you may want to start aiming for a 20% DTR.

    - Don't bother looking for the sweet spot during first crack...... you won't find it.
    But do cool your beans rapidly, whatever the roast.
    Last edited by chokkidog; 10th April 2018 at 10:16 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    - Matt covered the sweet spot stretch... if you are roasting for espresso or filter the development time ratio (DTR) should be 20-25% of total roast time and those parameters are what you should be aiming to achieve, before you start experimenting, if that's your bent.
    This obviously means that you should be recording the onset of first crack at between 75-80% of the roast progression. For light filter roasts you may want to start aiming for a 20% DTR.
    Thanks, this is a really helpful way of thinking about it! So far all I read/experimented with was roast times (say, 3 minutes to FC then 45 seconds on a hot day), but with the popper the air temperature and sun affect the roast speed enormously. I've had almost double the time on a cold day to reach SC.

    The bit about which fruit is also helpful. I just so happen to have a few Ethiopians to test that evolution (already took them to blueberry land a few times). Strawberry before citrus, I hadn't heard that one before. I also always thought the peach came later (perhaps because it is closer to blueberry than citrus).

  12. #12
    Senior Member askthecoffeeguy's Avatar
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    for a filter roast I pretty much roast until the end of first crack and then drop the roast otherwise your roast consistently is going to be too uneven if interrupted before then and then try to cool those beans down to room temperature in less than 2 minutes otherwise they're going to keep cooking seems to work pretty well for most manual brewing and filter applications...

    Cheers, ACG

  13. #13
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apicius View Post
    Strawberry before citrus, I hadn't heard that one before. I also always thought the peach came later (perhaps because it is closer to blueberry than citrus).
    I've had lovely peach/nectarine flavours before, but they tended to come from Centrals. Berries for the Ethiopians

  14. #14
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    I think youíll struggle to get the result youíre after on a popper, especially as it looks like your roast times are under 5min. Thereís nothing wrong with popper roasting, but it has its limitations. If possible Iíd try to slow down the roast as much as possible. The three main ways to do this on a popper are to reduce the batch size down to the minimum (usually around 70-80g), cool the set up during the roast by having a fan blowing on it, or modify the popper to allow variable fan/speed control. Youíll still have the issues faced with an open system, but people get pretty good results on Corettos so this isnít insurmountable. If you can do a batch of around 120-140g in about 7-8min you have a chance.

    Stirring the beans during first crack will help get a fairly even first crack. Then yes, ending the roast somewhere around 30secs after the end of first crack is a good place to start. Good luck. Happy roasting.

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    How raw is a hipster roast?

    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    I added a timed triac to my popper that powers on for 4 seconds and off for 6, brings FC times up to around 6 minutes, tried a lighter roast on the peruvian cafe da silvas 3 or 4 days ago (cooled about 30 seconds from FC) and had my first one this morning, definitely fruit flavoured, more noticeable in aroma of the beans in the jar tbh, very citrussey and a full flavoured coffee but without that real coffee aroma, very different coffee to anything I have tasted before, not sure I am a huge fan.
    second cup was a city roasted brazilan pulped natural .. coffee aroma with slight bitterness (roasted these before I had my timing right on the popper), amazing the difference from the grinder, the brazillians grind out in clumpy balls that stick together whereas the peruvian flows like sand.
    Anyway, long story short, considering my first blend now, 50:50 of these 2 bean roasts..



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