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Thread: Brewing problem after roasting

  1. #1
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    Brewing problem after roasting

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I've recently started roasting (about 8 roasts in) and I have a batch of beans that compatibly from my other roasts gush when I pull a shot (double) on my Rocket R58.

    Setup is
    250g Elephant Hills AA (in 208g out)
    Hottop roaster
    DTR of about 17%
    FC 14mins 30
    Dump at 16.30
    Dump temp (ET) 204
    Roast date 10 days ago

    Brew info:
    19-20g (more than the usual 17-18g)
    Standard tamp

    Interestingly enough the coffee has a better pour in a single basket with about (10g still an updose)

    Any ideas why this roast is gushing?

    To compare I roasted another batch of the same size for a slightly longer period and dumped at ET 206 and don't have this problem (although it was overly roasted)

  2. #2
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    You haven't said anything about your grind, id be dialling it back a little to see if this will help. I have found over the years roasting many different coffees single origins to blends you cant expect consistency through the machine and the first port of call if you say its similar to other roasts in my opinion is the grinder.

    Chris
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  3. #3
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    My grind is finer than I usually use for similarly aged beans. In fact it's much more finer. Given the beans are relatively freshly roasted what would this indicate about the roast

  4. #4
    Senior Member solace's Avatar
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    How did this roast compare colour wise to previous roasts of the the same bean that did not gush? Further, is the profile described exact to that of previous roasts where this has not occurred?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by solace View Post
    How did this roast compare colour wise to previous roasts of the the same bean that did not gush? Further, is the profile described exact to that of previous roasts where this has not occurred?

    Not following you mate. My point is my roasted beans need to be ground finer than bought roasted beans

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickm View Post
    Not following you mate. My point is my roasted beans need to be ground finer than bought roasted beans
    How many different beans have you roasted? Every bean has its grind setting. There simply isn't one grind setting for all beans, whether bought or home roasted. Elephant Hills AA is one of the harder beans, just set your grinder to a finer setting.

    If you've been getting by on just the one setting for all beans so far, you just happen to have got beans of roughly the same hardness so far.

    That won't last, as you've found out. As you get more different beans you'll need to keep track of the grind setting.

    Here's my table...

    So the Brazillian (22) is super soft compared to Elephant Hills AA (17). Only a few beans are harder than EH AA and none is softer than the Brazillian. If I grind EH-AA on 20 instead of 17 it'll pour in 15 seconds instead of 25. If I grind the Brazillian on 17 instead of 22 it'll block almost completely and never successfully finish the pour.

    Brazil Yellow Bourbon Especial 22
    China Dai Muang Lem 17
    Colombia Volcan Galeras Especial 16
    Costa Rica Dota Tarazzu Vara Blanca 18
    Costa Rica Miel SHB 21
    Ethiopia Biftu Gesha Sundried 20
    Ethiopia Gambella Sundried 18
    Ethiopia Harar Longberry 20
    Ethiopia Limmu 19
    Ethiopia Sidamo Ardi Naturals 21
    Ethiopia Yirgacheffe 20
    Guatemala Jacaltenango SHB 21
    India Elephant Hills AA 17
    India Monsoon Malabar Gold 18
    Kenya AA 19
    Myanmar Maymyo 19
    Panama Rati Hatmann Black Honey 17
    Peru Ceja de Selva AAA 15
    PNG Wahgi AA 19
    Rwanda Nyungwe A 18
    Sulawesi Blue 15
    Tanzania Kilimanjaro A 17
    Ugandan Kisoro AA 18
    Uganda Musasa Lower 18
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  7. #7
    Member skeevs's Avatar
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    Very helpful table for reference there. If I understand it correctly the lower the number the harder the beans?

  8. #8
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Hi Nickm
    Unfortunately you will struggle to get any really repeatable rules about bean origin and grind setting, because it will be your roasting that will impact on the grind outcome.

    If you roast any bean super slowly, it will end up powdery and super-soft ó and will require a much coarser grind to flow at all (think tamping flour!). Roast any bean super quickly, they will be less developed in the centre and hard to grind ó requiring a much finer grind to get a decent pour.

    The optimum roasting time for any given bean may vary a little bean origin to origin (a brazil slower than an ethiopian for example), but FWIW, I have found over the years that when I reach the 'optimum' roast profile - time and depth - (judging by flavour in the cup) for any of the beans that I roastÖ the grind setting remains the same for all! I go from Harrar to Gambella to Brasil to Indo beans swapping out multiple times daily (I roast for others so only end up with little samples of different beans) and the only grind setting changes I have made for years are for the triple basket to double basket. I did change recently though ó for some commercial beans

    So if your roast is actually gushing (and not too fine and is channeling Ė which if your single basket is ok may be?) then maybe your roast is a little under-developed, so try slowing your roast down

    Cheers Matt
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theonetruepath View Post
    How many different beans have you roasted? Every bean has its grind setting. There simply isn't one grind setting for all beans,
    I disagree, once you are roasting consistently to your own taste, grind settings remain very similar for all types of beans, only very minor adjustments are needed, unless of course you use a variety of brewing methods, i.e. espresso, pour over, french press etc.

    Constant fiddling with grind settings will only create confusion.

    The exception being as beans age, as they approach their use by date, you may find the espresso flow starting to increase, grind a touch finer.

  10. #10
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I disagree, once you are roasting consistently to your own taste, grind settings remain very similar for all types of beans, only very minor adjustments are needed, unless of course you use a variety of brewing methods, i.e. espresso, pour over, french press etc.

    Constant fiddling with grind settings will only create confusion.

    The exception being as beans age, as they approach their use by date, you may find the espresso flow starting to increase, grind a touch finer.
    Couldn't agree more Yelta. Between beans I probably only change a few mm on the Mazzer to adjust the grind settings. But mostly because I like a medium to dark roast for espresso and roast most beans to a very similar depth.
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  11. #11
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Ditto from me too...

    Maximum variation for me, no matter the beans I have roasted is +/- 3 minor graduations on our Mazzer. This has been so for more years than I can remember...

    Mal.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post

    Constant fiddling with grind settings will only create confusion.

    The exception being as beans age, as they approach their use by date, you may find the espresso flow starting to increase, grind a touch finer.
    And even the ďgrind finerĒ as things age seems to be pretty consistent between beans.

    I can pretty much dial in by numbers, do a quick tasting very minor adjustment then Iím good to go.

    Iím confused by the whole itís taken a kilo of beans to dial my grinder in discussion.

    Cheers.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanderP View Post
    And even the “grind finer” as things age seems to be pretty consistent between beans.

    I can pretty much dial in by numbers, do a quick tasting very minor adjustment then I’m good to go.

    I’m confused by the whole it’s taken a kilo of beans to dial my grinder in discussion.

    Cheers.
    I think a couple of things come into play here.

    Once a person has been making espresso successfully for a while the whole process becomes a lot less confusing, experience is certainly a good teacher, I guess for some the process is a lot more mystical than others.

    As far as the kilo of beans to dial in, many make the mistake of "practicing" with cheap or way out of date beans (read supermarket stuff) then expect the results to stand them in good stead when they transfer to good quality roasted beans, of course it doesn't, the results are totally different.

    A lot of the well meant but incorrect information does little to help.

    We all have to start somewhere.
    Last edited by Yelta; 1st February 2019 at 10:26 AM. Reason: repetition
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  14. #14
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    Brewing problem after roasting

    Partly related to the topic here. Iíve noticed my Ethiopian gambella beans have gotten darker over the days as espresso in the cup. I did roast the beans slightly darker this time around. This morning it looked syrupy and dark, missus said it was bitter tasting. Any thoughts about this ?

    Yields and brew time were all the same as past few days.
    Last edited by skeevs; 1st February 2019 at 09:23 AM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeevs View Post
    Partly related to the topic here. Iíve noticed my Ethiopian gambella beans have gotten darker over the days as espresso in the cup. I did roast the beans slightly darker this time around. This morning it looked syrupy and dark. This morning the missus said it was bitter tasting. Any thoughts about this ?

    Yields and brew time were all the same as past few days.
    Morning skeevs, do the beans look at all oily?

  16. #16
    Member skeevs's Avatar
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    Brewing problem after roasting

    Good morning Yelta! They donít look oily to me, but I could be wrong. Can you see from this photo ?

  17. #17
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    As far as the kilo of beans to dial in, many make the mistake of "practicing" with cheap or way out of date beans (read supermarket stuff) then expect the results to stand them in good stead when they transfer to good quality roasted beans, of course it doesn't, the results the results are totally different.
    Having said that, when I picked up the Robur, not knowing exactly 'where it was set' from the factory, I was very happy to have 500g of cheap on-special beans (which it churned through remarkably quickly, and tasted suprisingly good!) just to get it in the espresso pour zone. From there the shift to my own beans was a matter of degrees… so I can understand that

  18. #18
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=skeevs;645106]Good morning Yelta! They don’t look oily to me, but I could be wrong. Can you see from this photo ? My thoughts re the pic.

    No the beans don't look oily, visible signs of oil indicate roasted too dark, may result in perceived bitterness.

    They look to be very unevenly roasted, how do you roast?

    There has been a recent discussion re Ethiopian naturals roasting unevenly, have a read through this thread https://coffeesnobs.com.au/home-roasting-tips-tricks-ideas/50668-quakers-especially-harrar.html it is desirable to have evenness in a roast, light roasted coffee will have totally different characteristic compared to darker roasts, some of your beans look to be very dark and others under done, a situation which is less than ideal, do you have any other beans available to experiment with?

    Most people making espresso tend to favour roasted beans on the darker end of the scale, around CS 9 or 10, any darker is getting into over roasted/verging on burnt territory, have posted a copy of the CS roasting card (no longer available) which may help as to what you are aiming for.

    Good luck.
    120_120_CScard.jpg
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  19. #19
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Having said that, when I picked up the Robur, not knowing exactly 'where it was set' from the factory, I was very happy to have 500g of cheap on-special beans (which it churned through remarkably quickly, and tasted suprisingly good!) just to get it in the espresso pour zone. From there the shift to my own beans was a matter of degrees… so I can understand that
    My exact experience in the last couple of months with the Robur - took closer to 1kg to get it in the zone, particularly hard with larger retention as you tend to over compensate if you don't do a grind to flush out the beans first.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    Having said that, when I picked up the Robur, not knowing exactly 'where it was set' from the factory, I was very happy to have 500g of cheap on-special beans (which it churned through remarkably quickly, and tasted suprisingly good!) just to get it in the espresso pour zone. From there the shift to my own beans was a matter of degrees… so I can understand that
    Understand what your saying here Matt, however bear in mind your coming from a totally different starting point compared to a complete novice.

    I guess the way you put it here there is an argument for using cheaper beans to get a new grinder into "the espresso pour zone" then fine tuning from there.

    Having said that I still think a kg of beans to dial in is extraordinary, I've never used anything approaching that with any of my grinders.
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    My exact experience in the last couple of months with the Robur - took closer to 1kg to get it in the zone, particularly hard with larger retention as you tend to over compensate if you don't do a grind to flush out the beans first.
    Morning WEBN, as a matter of interest does the Robur have mesh over the delivery chute to help prevent clumping?

  22. #22
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Morning WEBN, as a matter of interest does the Robur have mesh over the delivery chute to help prevent clumping?
    It does! And I have often thought I should remove it as a lot of grounds get stored there all stuck together.
    To be completely honest I have just purchased it and moved from Adelaide to NZ and haven't had the time to muck around with it too much until I cracked a wobbly and decided to roast 1kg of beans to get it into the sweet spot. Would love to get some more time to pull it apart and see how I could make the retention problems less - I'm all ears!

    Also it's afternoon here Yelta
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    It does! And I have often thought I should remove it as a lot of grounds get stored there all stuck together.
    To be completely honest I have just purchased it and moved from Adelaide to NZ and haven't had the time to muck around with it too much until I cracked a wobbly and decided to roast 1kg of beans to get it into the sweet spot. Would love to get some more time to pull it apart and see how I could make the retention problems less - I'm all ears!

    Also it's afternoon here Yelta
    Getting rid of the mesh would be a good starting point, mind you the mesh also serves as a safety guard, don't stick a finger in there whilst its running, it will bite you severely.

    See my other recent post (few mins ago) explaining my single dosing technique.

  24. #24
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Getting rid of the mesh would be a good starting point, mind you the mesh also serves as a safety guard, don't stick a finger in there whilst its running, it will bite you severely.

    See my other recent post (few mins ago) explaining my single dosing technique.
    Does the mesh lift out?

  25. #25
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Quote Originally Posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    Does the mesh lift out?
    No idea, almost 10 years since I did mine, you may have to remove and replace the doser to get at the mesh, a simple task, what needs to be done should be self evident once you get access to it.



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