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Thread: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

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    Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5663726340060 link=1234695363/84#84 date=1236921053
    I think increasingly people are putting ex-commercial machines in their homes, and maybe the standard tips are just too "big" and difficult to use for the small amount of milk typically steamed in a domestic environment.
    That doesnt make sense to me.
    How do you make one flat white then in a commercial environment?

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C302D363C3D2A3F373C580 link=1234695363/87#87 date=1236941599
    That doesnt make sense to me.
    How do you make one flat white then in a commercial environment?
    Firstly the Barista is pulling dozens of shots per day, they have a heck of a lot more opportunity to perfect their technique as opposed to a domestic situation where someone may pull 2-3 in a day. Its IS possible to steam a small amount of milk and get good microfoam from a 3-4 hole tip but your technique needs to be spot on. The internet BeanBay are littered with people saying "I used to have a [domestic machine] and could get good microfoam, now I have a [pro-sumer/commercial machine] and cant get good results." A commercial machine will produce a large volume of steam and VERY quickly steam milk, basically the less holes you have the longer it takes (to the point of being impractical in a commercial environment) but is much easier and allows a greater margin for error. Less holes restricts the steam able to "escape" so everything is slowed down. If you ever mess about with stem tips with various number of holes you can actually hear that when you turn the steam off. With a 4 hole tip the pressure in the wand drops to zero pretty much instantly, however if you block them up or swap tips it takes a few seconds for the steam pressure to finally reach zero.

    Having said all that, hows it done in a "typical" cafe? If busy, pour the flat white having just poured the Cap/latte etc from the 1l jug. If not busy, top up and re-steam the milk *;D

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 0834293238392E3B33385C0 link=1234695363/87#87 date=1236941599
    That doesnt make sense to me.
    How do you make one flat white then in a commercial environment? *
    Your are correct TG.... it doesnt make any sense.

    You can, and I do, make perfectly textured milk in a small jug with my LC..... 17l boiler and (original) commercial 4 hole tip!

    I attended a professional coffee machine (barista) course and have done a fair bit of practice to get it just right.... but once mastered - it is easy.

    For those having problems..... think about a "transport" equivalent.

    Most of us learnt how to "drive" something on a push bike with trainer wheels.....
    We then learnt how to drive a small, relatively low powered car....
    Then maybe bought and learnt to drive a GTHO or the like...
    A fortunate few migrated through various racing cars to F1

    Now if you try and go from a push bike, or even a low powered car (domestic coffee machines) straight to driving an F1 racing car (commercial coffee machine).... you will probably kill yourself and others....

    You need to build up your skill levels before you attempt a high performance device (be it car or coffee machine).... this is a natural process.... and isnt cause to say that the F1 is unmanageable.... that is just WRONG....

    Sure you can "dumb down" the performance of the F1 (take out the motor and fit a mini motor :o) and it will be manageable by a driver not familiar with the car (fit a tip with less and smaller holes).....

    But it will no longer be an F1 race car.... it will be a bastardised version of one..... not because it was unmanageable in the first place.... but because you never took the time to learn how to drive it properly.....

    And if "ease of use" without training is really important.... dont even use steam..... one of those little aerating frothers will work really well - just like the push bike with training wheels ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D


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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Sorry I didnt phrase my original post very well but I thought clarified it with the follow up. I dont at all agree with your analogy however, if you want to master a 4 hole tip, thats great. I use both a 3 and 4 hole tip too (and yes Ive done a "professional coffee machine (barista) course" too, for what its worth). I use them for the satisfaction in doing so and because its FAST. However there is absolutely NO difference in the end result between using (say) a one hole tip and a 4 hole tip other than the time it takes, which is a far cry from using an aerating "frother"! As I mentioned , if you doubt the difficulties people have with this area do a search.

    Pete

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 7441504162240 link=1234695363/90#90 date=1236947085
    if you doubt the difficulties people have with this area do a search
    Pete,

    I dont doubt the difficulties.... I experienced them as well. I also fell off my bike lots of times when I was learning (many,many years ago)..... and I could have easily given up and confined myself to walking! (I now pilot planes....) so perseverance pays off in most things!

    Sure, individuals can find an easier way of doing something, and whilst I agree you can get the same results from a single holed 0.6mm tip (albeit slowly) compared to a 4 hole 0.8mm tip......

    the bottom line IMHO is

    Quote Originally Posted by 7441504162240 link=1234695363/90#90 date=1236947085
    I use them for the satisfaction in doing so
    Exactly!!!

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Pete when you get to know me better youll realise I dont always ask questions because I dont know the answer. ;)

    I too did a barista course and have my certificate somewhere...
    However I also followed it up with talking myself into a job behind one of those big steaming monsters.
    The sample I made for the boss as part of the interview nearly got away from me as the steam was stronger than the smaller machine Id learned on and definitely way more than even my Expobar.
    But I just caught myself in time and despite zero experience I was hired.
    It was not a busy place so I mostly made one coffee at a time, so I know its not impossible and just takes practise.

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Actually I realised what you were getting at there TD, but also didnt overlook the fact that this is not a private conversation between the 3 of us. Indeed due to the nature of the internet somebody could Google something and be introduced half way through the thread. I didnt however know you work as a Barista at the moment though.

    Although its clear we all agree on the same thing, just for clarity, what I meant by my original post on the tips is that in a TYPICAL scenario where a commercial machine is installed at home, a person may have cut their teeth on a small domestic machine, maybe upgraded once or twice, then gets a commercial machine off ebay or similar. Just look at the number sold on ebay and Id bet most of them never see a commercial environment again! Suddenly they have a machine that is not really designed for steaming small quantities and takes practice and good technique to do so. So there are basically 2 choices, learn the technique ... or cheat with a smaller tip ;D

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Pete - clarification:
    I dont currently work as a barista - just did it for a few weeks to prove I could put the theory into practise.

    Are you not giving the home user enough credit?
    Like I said, I did a brief course followed by making a lot of coffees at home on my Expobar.

    Stepping back up to a commercial machine wasnt that difficult.

    I had some trouble with steaming last year; one day all was fine, the next day I seemed to have lost the plot.
    I even asked Scott Callahan for a few tips at cuppacoffee one day.
    It took weeks before everything clicked back into place.

    Maybe a home user going straight from a small machine like an Ikon etc up to a commercial, might have a problem but if theyve had a prosumer before the commercial they should be OK pretty quickly.

    I think we do basically agree.

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 7B475A414B4A5D48404B2F0 link=1234695363/94#94 date=1236998139
    Are you not giving the home user enough credit?
    No.

    As I mentioned, do a search of coffee related BBs and this is a very common problem that seems to come up. From my own experience, I am presently using a 3 holer, however I will be swapping it for a 2 hole when I machine one up (lathe is U/S at the moment). The reason is that its just easier, and still plenty fast enough for me. Sometimes I find Ill be happily steaming away then within a split second a vortex will suddenly form around the tip and boom, the milk is less than perfect. Probably still better than 99% of commercial outlets but not perfect. I think I know why, but who cares, it sometimes happens and then Im pissed ;D So why put myself in that situation in the first place? Why should anyone?

    I know it wasnt yours, but if you like car analogies, then its nothing like an F1 car v a push bike, but it may be something like an automatic car versus a manual car. One could argue that a driver SHOULD be made to learn how to drive a manual car, yet many (most of the American population btw) cant. So the counter argument is, why? They dont make big commercial machines "big" for something to do, they have big boilers with multi hole steam tips to handle that steam so they can steam a lot of milk QUICKLY. Is this a factor in a domestic environment? Almost certainly not.

    Anyway, sorry guys but I feel firstly that were going around in circles here, more the point it has little to do with the subject of the thread so Ill leave it there and offer you the courtesy of the final say on the matter. For the record, my position is:
    Can you successfully steam a small amount of milk on a typical commercial machine? Yes
    Is handling the increased amount of steam more difficult? Yes
    Does it require better technique? Yes
    Other than time taken, is there a difference in the finished product between, say a 2 and 4 hole tip? No
    Should people be "made" to learn how to use a 3/4 hole tip? No
    Should Renzo stock 2 hole tips? Yes. Sorry Renzo,had to slip that one in there ;D

    Pete

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Hmmm,

    Ill just throw something else into the mix..... Taste.

    I have never operated as a Barista, just an enthusiastic home roaster/brewer. Something that I discovered over time as I graduated from smaller to larger machines, was the taste of the textured milk. Smaller and less powerful machines, as well as taking longer, seem to create textured milk that is not as sweet as that created on a more substantial machine.

    With our Bezz, and a 2-Hole Tip, beautifully textured and sweet milk seems to be par for the course. Prior to this, our Mokita also produced beautifully textured milk but it wasnt as sweet and it took longer. Going back into the dim dark ages when we had a small SB machine, the textured milk produced on this one was all but undrinkable.... Not sweet in the slightest and in fact, almost bitter.

    These have been my own personal observations over a quite considerable time and wonder what others may have noticed.... :)

    Mal.

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    When I was at the cupping at Veneziano Bris last week
    I tried my steaming method on the LM FB80 with 4 hole tip and got it right on the first try using a 300 ml jug

    I approached the task with the confidence that I was going to do it
    If you dont have confidence in a task then you are almost defeated before you start

    KK


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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    I have just moved from a Cimballi to an expobar and there is a difference in technique needed. The steam tips are very different in the direction of the holes (the cimballi is more off to the sides and the expobar is straigter). The first time I used the expobar it just about shot the milk out of the jug, didnt take long to figure it out and am now getting better milk than ever.

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    kk

    great that u got it on the first try on a fb80. when im on, then i might try a milk based coffee in the 300ml, but often, the foam and temperature are not the same quality as compared to using the 600ml jug. i reckon its better to waste a bit of milk (not a ton of it) and have better, more consistent results. its also harder to guage the milk temp in a small jug on a machine like fb80 - its just soo quick.

    on my spaz at home, i use the 300ml jug most of the time, but occasionally i pull out the 600ml jug to compare, and for me, i get better results on the bigger jug and throw out a little milk.

    aaron

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Mal, thanks for shifting the thread BTW, where did you get the 2 hole tip for your -35? My original has a 4 hole, but I replaced the steam arm with one that fully articulates and the new wand came with a 3 hole tip.

    Pete

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 0530213013550 link=1236941600/13#13 date=1237089658
    Mal, thanks for shifting the thread BTW, where did you get the 2 hole tip for your -35? My original has a 4 hole, but I replaced the steam arm with one that fully articulates and the new wand came with a 3 hole tip.

    Pete
    I was just curious and gave it a go on the FB80 (nice machine)
    One of the baristas also showed me how to restrict 2 holes by simply pushing the tip on the side of the jug (this can be practised in a dry jug)

    As for another steam tip just contact Barazi Bezzera they are the importers and they should have genuine steam tips available 2,3,4 hole

    KK

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Hi Guys,

    Got my 2-Hole tip from Pedro at CoffeeParts. For the sort of volumes I texture (300-1,000ml pitchers) it works very well. I havent measured the outlet holes I.D. but at a glance appears to about 1.0mm. Was thinking about grabbing one of the 3-Hole swirling pattern tips, just to see how this compares with a standard tip, not so much for any improvement in speed but mainly to see if it changes the texture in any way....

    Mal.

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 0134253417510 link=1236941600/6#6 date=1236948980
    Actually I realised what you were getting at there TD, but also didnt overlook the fact that this is not a private conversation between the 3 of us. Indeed due to the nature of the internet somebody could Google something and be introduced half way through the thread. I didnt however know you work as a Barista at the moment though.

    Although its clear we all agree on the same thing, just for clarity, what I meant by my original post on the tips is that in a TYPICAL scenario where a commercial machine is installed at home, a person may have cut their teeth on a small domestic machine, maybe upgraded once or twice, then gets a commercial machine off ebay or similar. Just look at the number sold on ebay and Id bet most of them never see a commercial environment again! Suddenly they have a machine that is not really designed for steaming small quantities and takes practice and good technique to do so. So there are basically 2 choices, learn the technique ... or cheat with a smaller tip ;D
    Time to dip my toe in. I definitely found it was much easier to get a spin happening in the milk going from a single holed silvia to the fb80. And once you have your technique figured out (really not that much work) you can steam in even the tiny incasa 300ml jugs - although personally I prefer 350-400 ml but this is for art reasons rather than steaming. Except it is much easier to clean up milk, if you happen to spill it on your shoes, in a cafe than a kitchen. ;D

    Its all in the spin baby

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Try steaming some milk for a macchiato in a 30ml jug.

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 4579647F757463767E75110 link=1236941600/0#0 date=1236941599
    How do you make one flat white then in a commercial environment? *
    Easy answer: steaming milk using a 350 mL pitcher....perfect amount of milk, no wastage!

    Easy to do? You need to practice, but it can be done...even on dual boiler commercials with bucket loads of steam.

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    Re: Transition from Domestic to Commercial....

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D7F7962656F790A0 link=1236941600/18#18 date=1243569508
    Quote Originally Posted by 4579647F757463767E75110 link=1236941600/0#0 date=1236941599
    How do you make one flat white then in a commercial environment? *
    Easy answer: steaming milk using a 350 mL pitcher....perfect amount of milk, no wastage!

    Easy to do? You need to practice, but it can be done...even on dual boiler commercials with bucket loads of steam.
    Thanks David but in my own defence read my next reply to Pete:

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E627F646E6F786D656E0A0 link=1236941600/5#5 date=1236947882
    Pete when you get to know me better youll realise I dont always ask questions because I dont know the answer. *
    Thats one I knew the answer to. *;)



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