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Thread: The new espro toroid jugs

  1. #1
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    The new espro toroid jugs

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Firstly, i must say that these are some of the sexiest milk frothing devices i have every seen (tried really hard not to make that last sentance lude). And after opening the box was so excited to start texturing away.
    I must say my first few attempts were pretty shoddy at best and it took around 30-40 or so caps till i was really satisfied with the microfoam. I must say, now that ive adjusted my technique to the jugs i find them to be quite forgiving as long as you remember where their sweet spot is.
    My biggest issue though lies with the spout. It shoots out perfectly horizontal with the rest of the jug which makes latte art very difficult to pour at the best of times and almost impossible when the jug is 3/4 or more full. The foam seems to dive through the crema and its very hard to get it to layer on top of or brake apart the crema to pour really nice rosettas (this is much easier when the jug is 1/3 to 1/2 full).
    I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences with the toroid and/or has any advice?

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Cool to see people trying these out. My experience with them was pretty much the same as yours - it seemed to make texturing the milk slightly easier and pouring latte art slightly harder. However, by fluke I think that I stumbled upon the answer ... and I hope that I can explain it in text ... so much easier in person! Basically, the angle at which spouts come out on normal jugs means that you have to tilt them less to get the angle of the jug closer to parallel with the table. So with the espro jug I needed to adjust my technique by holding the jug lower down and lifting the bottom of the jug up more ... in other words, making the line that the edge of the spout makes more parallel with the table ... or tilting the jug further forward. I hope that makes sense. Using the ordinary technique of frothing and splitting for two drinks resulted in relatively good results for me when pouring like this. However, I have probably tried this technique out less than a dozen times, so any feedback that you had on it would be appreciated. It seems to make sense to me that a different jug and spout shape requires a bit of a change to technique.

    Cheers,

    Luca

  3. #3
    psaigh
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Yeah, absolutely. I think i know what you mean about the angle of the spout. I did manage to pull off a couple of nice rosettas but couldnt really work out what was different. Though i did notice that when i was splitting the milk before pouring (for say two caps) i was getting much better rosettas than if i was pouring two coffees (say a cap, followed by a latte) one after the other from the jug. And that correlates with your recommendation re/ the spout angle (ie/ after splitting the milk, there is a much more horizontal spout for pouring due to less milk in the jug). Thanks for the feedback, cant wait to try it out tomorrow!

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    So Guys

    Is this becoming your jug of choice?

    As site sponsor Veneziano is now selling these, I would like to know your recommendations before I decide whether to order :-/

    Gary

  5. #5
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Quote Originally Posted by flowta link=1197690716/0#3 date=1197914475
    So Guys

    Is this becoming your jug of choice?

    As site sponsor Veneziano is now selling these, I would like to know your recommendations before I decide whether to order :-/

    Gary
    Havent tried these Gary and from what Ive read here about having to learn how to use this jug actually puts me off. Then again Im biased as we all may be - I have a couple of Metallurgica Motta (MMs) so of course I like them! Didnt have to learn how to use them, nice weight and quality, pour beautifully, and also available from site sponsor...Coffee Parts.

    I guess its what works for you - maybe a sponsor will have a whole range of jugs lined up to try one day like the machines...the price certainly seems to warrant it! ;D

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    I ordered one of these jugs from Veneziano last Friday...and it arrived in Adelaide on Tuesday...great delivery time, methinks!!
    I have been using the jug that came with my EM6910 since I got it in January, and although I eventually mastered an adequate microfoam, I could never get a rosetta happening...NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!...
    ...enter the Espro yesterday...first thoughts were: great looking jug, but handle a little too small for my hands.
    First go, I found it much easier to produce the best microfoam I have ever achieved...it all seemed to fall into place much quicker.
    By my third attempt...ROSETTA!!!!!!....slightly small leafed, but a well defined, symmetrical rosetta none the less.
    I dont know why, cant give any hints, but for me this thing makes it all happen...and the small handle seems to give me better control

    I am stoked!!!!

    Cheers,
    buff

  7. #7
    psaigh
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    After having used this jug for a couple of weeks now im getting the jist of it. Ive found that for decent latte art the jug needs to be less than half way full and you cannot pour the rosetta too quickly. This has been a good thing as it has forced me to focus on some of the finer points of texturing and pouring that i have let become almost too habitual and without thought.
    I probably wont be using these jugs seriousely in a commercial environment as i find im just much much quicker using a generic jug (though this may be due to familiararity) but i am still keen to keep practicing with it. I find my foam to be considerably more dense for cappuccinos and so will keep practicing with the espro for the next comp.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    i think psaigh is correct - the level of the milk in the jug is critical - if you notice on the instructions it says 125-200ml in the jug to start with - this is almost 20mm below the spout line! so if you are finding that your ending up with foam up to 3/4 of the jug - youve started with the wrong level. we have to think about this 560ml jug not as a 600ml unit, but as a 300ml unit. i to still have not mastered it but am getting there - darn it sexy though & stiff

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Quote Originally Posted by buff link=1197690716/0#5 date=1198066325
    I ordered one of these jugs from Veneziano last Friday...and it arrived in Adelaide on Tuesday...great delivery time, methinks!!
    I have been using the jug that came with my EM6910 since I got it in January, and although I eventually mastered an adequate microfoam, I could never get a rosetta happening...NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!...
    ...enter the Espro yesterday...first thoughts were: great looking jug, but handle a little too small for my hands.
    First go, I found it much easier to produce the best microfoam I have ever achieved...it all seemed to fall into place much quicker.
    By my third attempt...ROSETTA!!!!!!....slightly small leafed, but a well defined, symmetrical rosetta none the less.
    I dont know why, cant give any hints, but for me this thing makes it all happen...and the small handle seems to give me better control

    I am stoked!!!!

    Cheers,
    buff

    update......WAAAHHHHHH.....its all gone to hell in a filter basket.....since my earlier gloat, I just cant seem to get good microfoam with this jug, so forget about trying to improve on my once only rosetta.....I keep ending up with macrofoam :-[
    I dont know what I am doing wrong...interested to hear about the instructions that gaggiaboy is talking about...my jug did not come with any instructions...Im using the normal texturing technique as described ad infinitum on this forum
    cheers

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Can anyone post a pic of one of these things for the completely uneducated members on the espro... thanks.... Ray.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    The image came from the espro site itself (Espro, 2007,retrieved 10/1/08)


  12. #12
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Nicely referenced NE1 ;)

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Not really, as I couldnt include the web address. But thanks :-[

    Hope thats what you were after Ray C.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Thanks mate, it really is a different looking jug isnt it....... Ray.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    What sizes do those jugs come in? Just the usual 600mls?

    Unusual shape. When I am at Lucas next I will have to have a look.

    -Linda

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    yeah but the really unusual part is the base - lets post foto of the base! its crazy! ..... the jug is only 560ml - even in canada.... but as stated previously it is effectively a 300ml as you only can put 125-200ml in it...

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    I purchased one several days ago, and havent had much success at creating microfoam. Ill try it out with less milk, and post my result later.

    On the pouring side of things, even though the foam is much less than perfect, I can see that it is going to be difficult to get the hang of.

    Its a pity they advertise this as being the easiest thing to use to get good results. Kind of disappointing. Always better to undersell in my opinion.

    If theres anyone out there who has the hang of it, may I suggest you consider posting a video on youtube so that the rest of us can learn from your technique?

  18. #18
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    I had one of these in my hands the other day and found the handle to be quite a tight fit around my fingers - or maybe I just have big fingers. I guess it could give you good control over the pour, but I just didnt find it comfortable to hold.

    Decided to stick with the MM jugs and bought 3 more for the roastery - theyre also shinier than the toroids.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1197690716/15#17 date=1204705183
    ... or maybe I just have big fingers ...
    the nostrils in your avatar indicate not mate *;D

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Quote Originally Posted by gaggiaboy link=1197690716/15#15 date=1200049786
    yeah but the really unusual part is the base - lets post foto of the base! its crazy! ..... the jug is only 560ml - even in canada.... but as stated previously it is effectively a 300ml as you only can put 125-200ml in it...
    200 mL...are you nuts? I can make 2x 230mL drinks out of the Toroid. Which brings me to the question....what are you doing?

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Reporting back after at least another 10 attempts.

    Ive tried 200 mL with no success, as well as volumes down to 150 mL and up to 250 mL.

    I find that, contrary to the sexy 3-D animation on the espro website, there is NO toroidal flow happening, no matter where and with what angle I place the spout. Im using a 6910, so maybe theres just not enough pressure, however I can get a good spin using other jugs, so pressure shouldnt be the problem. I tend to find that theres a dead space at the top, and the foam is just not being carried down again, and so not being broken up finely.

    Extremely disappointed at this stage, and almost ready to throw in the towel.

    Glad that it comes with a no questions asked guarantee for a year! I might be using it soon.



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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Hi folks, first post.

    Ive had a 6910 for a couple of months and wasnt satisfied with my texturing. Id tried both 600ml and 300ml standard jugs. I went through the whole rigmarole of trawling forums, watching youtube videos, trying different wand positions, different temperatures, different stretch-swirl times, different types of milk, etc but could not get consistent dense microfoam.

    I had a talk to Wushoes when I was in at Veneziano buying beans. On his recommendation I re-programmed the 6910 steam as suggested elsewhere on this forum (+5 degrees, -0.1 sec off) AND I purchased a Toroid jug. My verdict - AWESOME! Ive done about 50 jugs over the last two or three weeks and have yet to have a dud. I found the standard jugs to be very sensitive to technique, it was easy to muck up a batch. The Toroid on the other hand seems to produce a good result almost regardless of what you do, and with a little care routinely produces a great result.

    As Wushoes just posted, doesnt matter whether you do 230ml or 460ml. Both work just fine with the 6910. Maybe others are having trouble because their machines produce more steam than the 6910? But for those with 6910s, the Toroid is the missing component in producing consistently good coffee at home.

    My technique:
    Keep jug in the fridge (why? because that was one of the things I tried earlier and Ive just kept doing it).
    Pour in the right amount of milk for one or two drinks, currently using Pauls (why? because thats what the local shop sells) or Safeway.
    Fit a thermometer (why? you guessed it, carry-over from the rigmarole, but I find it helps me to get a consistent temperature).
    Purge wand.
    Put the wand into the jug - I rest the wand in the spout and alter the angle of the wand so that it is pointing at the centre of the jug (where the Toroid has its special dimple). I keep the jug pretty well horizontal. DONT tip the jug to one side or try for an off-centre whirlpool effect.
    Turn on full steam.
    Lower the jug to surf the surface of the milk - this seems very easy with the Toroid, gently hisses along with no sudden bursts. Keep the wand pointing at the centre of the jug, this may require small wand angle changes as you lower the jug.
    I normally keep stretching until about 40 degrees and then stop lowering the jug and allow the tip to churn below the surface until about 50 degrees. (This is 5-10 degrees cooler than I do with a standard jug, seems to be more thermal lag with the Toroid).
    Swirl, tap (ritual) and swirl again.
    Pour.

    I have to say that Im not really into latte art so I cant comment on how suitable the Toroid is for this. But Im pretty confident that the texture of the milk would be up to the task even if the handle/spout/weight etc might not be.

    I hope this helps (and thanks again Wushoes!)

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Thanks for the detailed explanatation... Ill give it a try. You say you keep the jug horizontal and aim for the centre... do you keep the wand vertical, or is it ok to be aiming at the centre from an angle?

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Did everything you said PM, including the settings on the 6910, however no luck. Ive tried increasing the steam pressure as well by programming the highest steam temp, but that doesnt work either.

    IMHO the Toroid is a dud. Im a technically competent guy, and Ive never had so much trouble getting something so supposedly foolproof to work in my life!

    Youre not the importer, are you? *[smiley=huh.gif]

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Quote Originally Posted by javajosh link=1197690716/15#22 date=1204748911
    ... do you keep the wand vertical, or is it ok to be aiming at the centre from an angle?
    No, not vertical. Most times I just do enough for one latte, so the angle is about 30 degrees from vertical. That means the tip of the jug is right up at the bend in the wand when you start. Ive noticed that there are more "bursts" when the angle is greater, so err on the side of being more vertical. Ill focus when I make coffee this morning, I think I may have to lean the jug forward towards the machine just a tad.

    Quote Originally Posted by javajosh link=1197690716/15#23 date=1204751072
    Youre not the importer, are you? [smiley=huh.gif]
    No, fraid not. Nothing to do with the coffee industry, just trying to help out (and intrigued because the Toroid was very much a silver bullet for me, and for my 22 year old son who also uses the machine).

    I assume you use a gentle touch and lower the jug very slowly? Is the tip clean and tight? What actually happens? What sounds do you get? What sort of result do you get - bubble rubble, no volume...?

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    My first impressions of this jug was that it just didnt work as advertised. I had tried different methods without any improvement on a standard jug and was going to give up on it. Then the wife started using it to great effect and let me know that she thought it was simple to use and that I was useless. Couldnt let that happen so I persevered and finally cracked it.

    Puk Mans post pretty much sums up the way to use the jug successfully. Once you get it right it produces great microfoam. :P

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Hi SunnyCoaster - can you put your finger on what you started doing differently to "crack" it?

    And javajosh, I just made a coffee, here are some other pointers that might help. Jug is horizontal. The wand stays in contact with the tip of the spout of the jug all the time, gives stability. At the start, when the wand is deep in the milk, I lower the jug slowly - as I do this, the sounds go from bubbling, to a squeal, then a continuous tchhhhhhhhhhhh - dont lower any further or you get into bursts (Tch....Tch...bubble, bubble...Tch). About half way through, I give a small tug with the jug to realign the wand towards the centre of the Toroid.

  28. #28
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    I really appreciate all the tips, but still cant get a good result. For me, its just so much easier using a normal jug!

    Im going to take it over to my local coffee guru at Di Bartoli, and see what he can do with it.

    I suspect that Im not getting enough pressure using the 6910, but if I cant get it to work at Di Bartoli, then Im sending it back.



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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    I might have posted a bit late but am really interested in getting this pitcher from Espro. Do you guys use Silvia 3 hole steam tip? Does it work with this pitcher pretty good? From the illustration of the website, it seems to be designed for single hole tip machine only.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Hmm,

    Ive been using one of these for about a month, and I have to say that I dont think it does anything worth the extra $$$. I have no trouble with adequate steam or getting microfoam with my existing jugs. And it is only useful for small amounts of milk, as other CS users have said.

    I think it is just a bit over-hyped.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    I have to say guys and gals its definitely not the jug at fault. I have a 6910 and have used all jugs to stretch milk and get good milk all the time. (not that im bragging, that sounded a little egoish) I hate to break it to you but texturing milk is all in the technique and using a great consistent milk. Definitely agree with Rose that this jug is over hyped

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    I agree that these toroid jugs are over-rated. However, I love their design and appearance. I use both the small and large size (12 oz -350 ml- and 20 oz -600 ml). I would like to note that I find it scandalous that the 600-mll jug sells for around 66 AUD at the Australian market, whereas they are "only" 35 dollars in the US.

  33. #33
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D7C6E7F637C6F647C6565786E6F0A0 link=1197690716/31#31 date=1249087386
    I agree that these toroid jugs are over-rated. However, I love their design and appearance. I use both the small and large size (12 oz -350 ml- and 20 oz -600 ml). I would like to note that I find it scandalous that the 600-mll jug sells *for around 66 AUD at the Australian market, whereas they are "only" 35 dollars in the US.
    I guess there are always the options of booking a flight and collecting one yourself, or of sourcing one there and then parting up for postage. It will probably make $66 look pretty reasonable *:-??

  34. #34
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Not to mention the exchange rate

    Live rates at 2009.08.01 11:26:54 UTC
    35.00 USD = 42.2653 AUD
    United States Dollars Australia Dollars
    1 USD = 1.20758 AUD 1 AUD = 0.828103 USD

  35. #35
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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    Im pretty happy with my espro.

    It is certainly well built and solid, and good for beginners or those that dont make coffee everyday.

    They have my recommendation!



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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    We use an Espro jug at work (& an espro tamper). *Some find it a brilliant aid to texturing. *I have always had a problem with it over-texturing (great for babychinos). *I find that these days that Im aiming for the viscosity of Vitasoy rather than pouring cream.

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    Re: The new espro toroid jugs

    They look the bomb, btu result are not great. i now use mine for gravy =D



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