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Thread: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

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    Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hey, ive just started with a new cafe and looking to revamp the place. Trying to get coffee sales up and a good name about ourselves obviously. Starting with good coffee of course. Ive gone with a local roaster but now im deciding on the milk. I have contacted the usual boys in pura and dairy farmers but have been hearing a lot about some other smaller companys in procal and riverina. Any thoughts on these? Ive personally used dairy farmers in the past and found there milk great, but have been hearing rumours about takeovers from Pura. How much difference is there between these milks, service and price? Also this froth-top business...companys trying to make more cash or is there something in it

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C617B7C606B63617B7A66390E0 link=1238470329/0#0 date=1238470329
    Ive personally used dairy farmers in the past and found there milk great, but have been hearing rumours about takeovers from Pura.
    The parent company of Pura has indeed taken over Dairy farmers.
    http://www.ausfoodnews.com.au/2008/11/13/national-foods-bid-gets-dairy-farmers-shareholder-approval.html
    At this stage, I believe they mean to keep the existing brands.
    As for service and price, perhaps some of the experienced cafe people can shed some light. I would advise contacting the different players though and asking them what they can do for you.

    Froth-top and crema etc. Get some samples and see if you find any difference. Surely the sales reps will have some they can let you have for evaluation.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    The Dairy Farmers I tried last week was not to my liking taste wise.

    The Aldi in the fridge today tastes OK (I hear its really Pura).

    I suggest that taste should be the first requirement then worry about price.

    Thinking about price first may defeat your attempt to get coffee sales up and a good name for yourselves.

    Ill pay for good coffee (I drink flat whites) but wont be back if its no good.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Every time milk is mentioned I stick my hand up for Riverina Fresh, I must sound like a salesman. I have consistent results, I havent used a wide variety of milks however.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    The only milk I will not buy is Pauls. I have never had problems with any other, and usually buy pura or safeways brand.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Hey guys, thanks for the help. Ended up talking to a few different reps, in the end i felt comfortable with a bloke my coffee company set me up with. He actually chatted to me like i wasnt a piece of meat, trying to just get money out of me. Anyway hopefully the quality of milk is as good as the service.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B564C4B575C54564C4D510E390 link=1238470329/5#5 date=1238653189
    He actually chatted to me like i wasnt a piece of meat, trying to just get money out of me.
    Those guys that can fake sincerity will make the sale every time. ;)

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Price vs quality.....I am a stickler for finding the best value. Since buying a good espresso machine at home I am going through a lot more milk than I used to. I have always bought the Woolworth brand 3L bottles because they are a good two dollars cheaper than Pura and Betta. A couple of weeks a go I decided to compare them all so i bought a small bottle of each and filled three small cups. I had a few people over and we did some taste testing. Everybody distinguished the Betta and Pura milk as being much better tasting without being told what the milk brands were. I have decided to spend that little bit extra on the Betta milk as it is Tasmanian milk and almost completely Tasmanian owned. It has made a huge difference in the quality of coffee I am serving/drinking. I can tell straight away now if it is not that brand.

    Alistair

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    where available I always try to stick to local, high quality producers who care about their products. I really cant beleive that there is any comparison between buying 1lt of milk that has been crossed blended with over 100 (or in some cases 1000) other farms and then pushed through over 27 individual pumps and processing locaitons before being bottled, and that of buying 1lt of milk from an actual farmer.

    I hate mass-produced coffee, i hate mass-produced milk. Simple.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Lately Ive been using Pura & finding it very hit & miss. I might get one or two good batches in a row & then Ill get a dud. It just wont froth properly & ends up all bubbly. I think its my technique but when I open the next batch, all is fine again. I wish these cows would pull the finger out & start producing some conbsistency ;)

    Evan.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    I would urge anyone buying milk to support smaller producers and local farmers, not big brands and supermarket chains. Some excellent milk I tried recently was from the Pyrmont Growers Markets, it was Johnsons Farmgate Over the Moon whole jersey milk. www.overthemoonmilk.co.au. This milk comes from one dairy (not mixed up at processed at big depots like Dairy Farmers at etc.) I can tell the difference between this and Dairy Farmers etc with a blind fold on every time.
    Most supermarkets are bleeding Australian dairy farmers dry at the moment with their massive buying power, farmers are having to work longer and harder to deliver more and more milk at lower prices. Another great milk I tried was Organic Valley from Macro. Anyway whatever you choose, think hard about your choice and support Aussie farmers!!

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Dairy farmers are doing ok, dont feel too sorry for them. Prices havent been better for a long time. The only issue for them is the drought and actually producing milk. Sorry that it is a little OT but I think that it is a bit unfair to say small producer "good" big producer "bad" capitalism has its faults but it has gotten us to where we are today.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Hi pyrmontboy200.
    I am on of those Aussie dairyfarmers out there working hard to make good milk for coffee. I have been hard at it since we came back from enjoying Wicked Sunday at Fed Square and I have not even had time to write about our much enjoyed Melbourne coffee crawl or download some photos I took of the great event. Being a dairyfamer at the moment is hard yakka in our region(Riverina). We have not had green grass for over 3 years and the cows diet is certainly different to just locking them in the paddock when the green grass and crops were in abundance. Our cows are fed lucerne hay. grass hay, maize silage, biscuit waste, canola crush and minerals twice a day at present in a huge mixing machine. Our milk tastes different at different times of the year depending on the diet of the cow. It also reacts differently when I steam it for coffee at different times in the year. Yesterday I got great microfoam for the coffees and the whole mik was only 2 hours fresh straight out of the farm vat. Gave me a real buzz. Other times I do not get the same result. We are getting 35 cents a litre for our milk at present and out of that we have to pay for the fodder, running costs etc. Not forgetting the NSW government who charges us for water we have not had delivered this year due to no water in the River Murray system for irrigation. Dairfarming is an expensive business at the moment. Some dairy companies are paying more per litre to the farmer than others with the world recession. Some companies are whoie milk suppliers and some are export companies. So thanks for the words of encouragement to help the Aussie dairyfarmers. We are a dying breed so to speak with an average age of 54 now. Those of us that are left here wonder how much longer we can go on with the drought in some areas and not in others. Tassie, Atherton Tablelands. Northern NSW, Gippsland and N.Z. look llike being the dairyfarming areas of the future. Unless we get irrigation water we will not be here next year. Sad but true. Anyone like to buy a dairyfarm down the road? Only $2.3 million wihtout cows. N.Z investment when the boom times were on. No water no income so there it stands empty and unused. Been on the market for 3 years now. Brands of milk are various all over Australia.
    It all depends on the area where one is living. Just keep buying Australian milk and enjoy your coffees. Good frothing Herbie.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Sorry motocoffee but I cannot agree with your words. We are in the industry and oh how we wish your words were true. Makes me feel very sad to read such when I see my husband up at 3.45 a.m. and working until 7 p.m. 7 days a week at the present for a paltry 35 cents a litre for a superb product. How we wish we were getting great prices and doing so well. At present time we are just getting there. In our area the average debt per farm is $1 million. No one wants to buy into an industry paying a pittance for a great product. .....Never been so bad price wise. Yes there is the odd dairyfarmer making a killing but look deeply into the setup and you will find in some instances that they have managers on the farms and the money comes from elsewhere or they are many generations into dairyfarming and are not purchasing a farm, equipment or cows. Herbies Missus for Herbie.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Herbie, my comments do not apply to you as you are in an area with no water so you are not doing well. I have intimate knowledge of agriculture and I do understand your plight. This also applies to ricegrowers and horti farmers in your area. My comments were not to imply that you are making a killing either just that as an industry you were not being raped and pillaged by the "big companies". Should farmers be paid more for the quality product they are growing/producing, absolutely, is it restricted to dairy farmers, not at all. Look to citrus, wine grape growers, wheat farmers etc, unfortunately farming is an industry of commodity production and it is difficult to differentiate and increase margins.

    Sorry for any offense caused.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Thanks moto coffee. Primary Industries are complex and the food bowl of Australia is sure hurting as you are well aware. We will keep going to produce our great milk for the many coffees sold around Aussie. I find solace in my home roasting of great green beans from C.S. and coffee tastings of such, along with the milk frothing. I never cease to be amazed at the many brands of milks out there. Choosing must be a challenge. I have taken a great interest in the posts from C.S.ers on this very topic. Herbie.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Will have to catch up one day, I drive through deni occasionally to the parents farm in Nth Central Vic.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Herbie/moto

    35 cents a litre is a joke, I pay 2.40 for a litre of Dairy Farmers at my local green grocer in Artarmon (I dont shop at supermarkets.) *The problem with food distribution is that there are barriers to entry, you need a huge amount of capital to distribute food. This means therell only ever be a couple of big players, and the big players will have oligopoly power. The reason they can is because it is not an efficient market, i.e a large number of sellers and buyers. The price difference above is evidence of that. Most of the money goes to the middle men, not the people doing the back breaking work to deliver it. Its cliched yes, but in this instance the big companies are also bad! *

    Thats my piece. Anyway dont take my word for it, all I am saying is research every dollar you spend and try and make a difference when you open your wallet.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Thanks pyrmontboy200. You have summed the situation up very well indeed. Herbie.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2124282C242B74450 link=1238470329/4#4 date=1238481569
    The only milk I will not buy is Pauls. *I have never had problems with any other, and usually buy pura or safeways brand.
    I tought Pauls got renamed Pura when Parmalet bought them ... has a lot of permeate added I think - yuk!

    Second vote for Over the moon a.k.a. Johnsons Farm Gate.

    Available at Pyrmont in front of the casino first Saturday of the month, and Nth Sydney Markets 3rd Saturday of the month.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 404B49464B58414B5F592A0 link=1238470329/19#19 date=1239662868
    I tought Pauls got renamed Pura when Parmalet bought them ... has a lot of permeate added I think - yuk!
    Parmalat do NOT own Pura.
    National Foods owns Pura (and has nothing to do with Pauls).

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Sorry .... Kirin (Jap Beer) ownes National foods who own both Pura and Dairy Farmers

    Parmalat owns Pauls

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    I tried Over The Moon jersey milk and agree that its probably the best milk around. Going to start making a habit of going to the growers markets!

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Anyone know of any dairy farms near Brisbane that could source milk?

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    the milk discussion is an ongoing debate... simply put i recommend the following... as advice given to all our customers Australia wide....

    Firstly choose the right milk that goes with A... your coffee... not all coffee will taste the same with all milks (do your tastings with your team and customers)..... B ...availability of supply.... everyone wants everyones business, until they grow and cannot supply any longer........

    Secondly choose a milk that is not too expensive..... not sure if most people know ... ... over 70% of milk being supplied to cafes across Australia is being sold under cost price.... at first i found this hard to believe... however after speaking to many different companies.. ie parmalat, pura, dairy farmers ect.... they all sing the same song.... for them to make profit a 2 litre bottle SHOULD sell for closer to $3 per bottle... however most companies are now selling between $1.90 and $2.60...... very interesting...

    But you would be silly not to capitalise on this and try to get a milk that ticks all the boxes and comes in at a reasonable price......

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 527F54737A7A77160 link=1238470329/24#24 date=1242705383
    not sure if most people know ... ... over 70% of milk being supplied to cafes across Australia is being sold under cost price.... at first i found this hard to believe... however after speaking to many different companies.. ie parmalat, pura, dairy farmers ect.... they all sing the same song.... for them to make profit a 2 litre bottle SHOULD sell for closer to $3 per bottle... however most companies are now selling between $1.90 and $2.60...... very interesting...
    Sounds like BS to me.

    If they only supply you with milk what would they get out of being so generous?
    A warm fuzzy feeling where their hearts should be?

    BS for sure.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Totally agree Im not sure that their shareholders would put up with them selling milk for $1.10-40 c cheaper than needed to make a "profit". Put that in a multiplier of the millions of liters sold everyday and you can see how unlikely that is. I never trust a corporation crying poor me.

    Just my second crack.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 717F727D6A7C7D130 link=1238470329/26#26 date=1242718703
    Just my second crack.
    Send it to the milk companies.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    dont shoot the messenger guys......... just passing on what they all have to say.... maybe we can invite a milk executive to comment.. ;)

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 547952757C7C71100 link=1238470329/28#28 date=1242882612
    just passing on what they all have to say
    Just means they are all liars.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    A milk recently popped up in my area (Wollongong NSW) - Country Valley Premium Milk. It is excellent so far. NO PERMEATE. 100% milk with no additives.

    I always dreaded the day I would have to go searching for 100% milk with no additives (I always knew we would get there) but here I am scouring the shelves for exactly that...and it is difficult in my particular suburb - often have to drive 1/2 hour into Wollongong to get it and then often had to pay a fortune for A2.

    Country Valley milk states it is from cows in Picton which is only 40 mins up the road...so quite local for me. $2 cheaper per 2 litre bottle. Microfoams very well. Very happy, and they have my business from now on.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    we changed to bannister downs dairy when we started getting charged 3.85 per 2 litre milk with 4 or 5 days code from PFD (Fontera).
    So they do make money.
    Just the farmers dont.

    LE

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    I have found that there are certainly differing results in terms of ability to firstly produce a good bubble, then transform into a beautiful silky foam. Dependent on where my good missus picks up the milk, I have tried quite a few different ones, with Mooloo producing the best results on a consistent basis.

    I find it in the fruit and vegie shops generally, and try and stick with it.

    AND...the price is right, about 2.60 for 2L

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    $2.60???? Wow, cheap and good!

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    would still be good if we could get a milk executive to comment on the cost of milk... if they can give this info away... or give us some kind of indication...

    or anyone that might have worked in a milk factory maybe..... not much is known about the milk industry... ie.. cost of milk manufacturing etc..... would be great to get some info...

    do not like DFOs (data free observations) :)

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    This article doesnt answer the discussion but adds to the complexity of the question http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2009/03/06/59045_dairy.html

    Essentially the market is reasonably complex and dairys make money from not only milk on the shelves but by exporting various products and manufacturing. So I think it would be difficult to get an easy answer to the question of what companies "should" be charging to make a profit.

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 123F14333A3A37560 link=1238470329/34#34 date=1243232370
    would still be good if we could get a milk executive to comment on the cost of milk... if they can give this info away
    Thats pretty cheeky. Wouldnt that be a bit like asking Di Bella the cost of every facet of your business? I mean really, though I might be curious, isnt it their business as to whether they make a profit and how much of a profit, or not, they make? That is unless of course youre about to don some armour and go in and lobby for the dairy farmers.


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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Bouge.

    Thanks for your comment. The milk levy being removed has made no difference. The cost of everything we use continues to rise. We now have rain on the roof so maybe soon we will have some grass for the cows and be able to cut back on buying in fodder. Herbie

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F62496E67676A0B0 link=1238470329/39#39 date=1243388132
    I was not asking for milk companies to reveal private information... but simply asking them to respond to claims that people make about them ripping people off...
    Quote Originally Posted by 4F62496E67676A0B0 link=1238470329/34#34 date=1243232370
    would still be good if we could get a milk executive to comment on the cost of milk... if they can give this info away... or give us some kind of indication...

    or anyone that might have worked in a milk factory maybe..... not much is known about the milk industry... ie.. cost of milk manufacturing etc..... would be great to get some info...
    Quote Originally Posted by 4F62496E67676A0B0 link=1238470329/39#39 date=1243388132
    I was not asking for milk companies to reveal private information... but simply asking them to respond to claims that people make about them ripping people off...
    Now Phil, dont get me wrong, Im not on the attack, but Im struggling a bit to find some congruence in a few of your statements. The questions youve directly asked the milk companies have been answered and you gave us their answers.

    I could be wrong, but havent noticed any CS members claiming theyre being ripped off either. Perhaps thats another reason why they havent and are unlikely to respond to such a question here in this forum. The questions you raise and expect a response to, would be more at home in a commercial current affair program. Come to think of it, theyve probably covered this before and no doubt will do it again.

    Cheers! :)


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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Hey Dennis there is a difference between a comment on the price of milk and revealing profit margins.. thats my point...

    Sketchy
    3.85 was it for 2lt.
    sorry mate your getting riped off. make some calls.

    Was this not posted by Bouge...... i suggest you are wrong Dennis... no offence intended... :)

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 143912353C3C31500 link=1238470329/41#41 date=1243406857
    i suggest you are wrong Dennis
    Oh, I dont think Im wrong Phil - just that I may have a different view than yourself...and thats fine by me. * 8-)

    Quote Originally Posted by 143912353C3C31500 link=1238470329/41#41 date=1243406857
    ... no offence intended..
    None taken Phil. *:)





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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    All- its really rare that mods ever have to hit the delete button.

    I have done so in this thread and removed a number of responses.

    Message to newbies- play nice so that mods dont need to mod your posts

    Message to old CSers....Please alert a member of the mod team if we miss out of line stuff

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    So.......
    i have a small dig at Phil DiBella who is having a big dig at milk companies and my comments get deleted

    i would just like to rememend people this thread is about MILK COMPAMIES!!! not coffee compamies who pay to be here.

    will phil comment on the price of his coffee? or will he have this comment deleted again?
    Please people this thread is about MILK
    MILK
    MILK
    MILK!

    to the people who mon this site im here to play nice and talk about THE TOPIC! do i need to hand money to coffeesnobs.com.au to have my thoughts hurd? oh and my thoughts are about MILK. THE TOPIC OF THE THRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1A372D3F3D580 link=1238470329/42#42 date=1243758567
    So.......
    i have a small dig at Phil DiBella who is having a big dig at milk companies and my comments get deleted

    i would just like to rememend people this thread is about MILK COMPAMIES!!! not coffee compamies who pay to be here.

    will phil comment on the price of his coffee? or will he have this comment deleted again?
    Please people this thread is about MILK
    MILK
    MILK
    MILK!

    to the people who mon this site im here to play nice and talk about THE TOPIC! do i need to hand money to coffeesnobs.com.au to have my thoughts hurd? oh and my thoughts are about MILK. THE TOPIC OF THE THRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Bouge- your comment was deleted because it was out of line- as this one is. Mate, check the attitude at the door and play nice...or choose a different forum to become a troll in >:(

  45. #45
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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    im more that happy to place nice. but please this is about milk and nothing else. who is good and not so good.
    fair enought my comments were out of line, but,

    can we all please stick to topic. Qualiy of milk and not how companies make there money. no one asks me how much it cost me to make there $3 latte!

    i dont mean to offend just trying to keep this on topic and not a free for all woth CS members sleging something outside there bounds of field. am i forgiven?

  46. #46
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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    In my previous role as manager of an inner city Brisbane espresso bar I dealt with Dairy Farmers and in particular their representative Laura. She gave fantastic service to the two companies I used to work for and I cant recommend dairy farmers highly enough due to this.

    Having said that, now Im using Maleny dairy at veneziano and its really good. Its one of the few milks that I have encountered that doesnt have a slight watery aftertaste and its a bit sweeter than all the other milks Ive ever used (pura, norco, df).

    For home use I tend to just use iga milk. At 2.40 for 2L its a steal and has stood up surprisingly well compared to branded milks. I think however that a smaller supermarket may offer better milk as they have to pack it away asap and this keeps the milk tasting good.

  47. #47
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7B564C5E5C390 link=1238470329/44#44 date=1243760109
    can we all please stick to topic. Qualiy of milk and not how companies make there money. no one asks me how much it cost me to make there $3 latte!
    Thread Topic = "Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?"

    How is discussing price not on topic?
    The OP specifically asked about price comparison.

    How a milk company makes their money is to charge the buyer - simple.
    What that price is and whether it answers the "price vs quality" part of the Thread Subject is legitimately on topic.



    Lately Ive been using Dairy Farmers full cream or either of the Coles cheaper ones *(which I hear are DF anyway).
    I am very fussy about the taste of my milk and these are OK.

    I had one of the Woolworths ones a few weeks ago that tasted sour(?).

  48. #48
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 023E2338323324313932560 link=1238470329/46#46 date=1243770945
    I had one of the Woolworths ones a few weeks ago that tasted sour(?)
    Reminds me of primary school when the government provided schools with crates of milk that usually sat in the sun for a few hours. Then, once they had well and truly turned sour, pupils were lined up to drink it under the watchful eye of the teachers.

    Ah, the good old days...not!


  49. #49
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 49686363647E0D0 link=1238470329/47#47 date=1243864105
    Reminds me of primary school when the government provided schools with crates of milk that usually sat in the sun for a few hours.Then, once they had well and truly turned sour, pupils were lined up to drink it under the watchful eye of the teachers.

    Ah, the good old days...not!
    I was in charge of the milk in my day and ours never sat in the sun.
    I liked my milk and was always willing to drink an extra one for those who didnt want theirs.

  50. #50
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    Re: Milk companies and which is best to use? price vs quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1B273A212B2A3D28202B4F0 link=1238470329/48#48 date=1243869483
    Quote Originally Posted by 49686363647E0D0 link=1238470329/47#47 date=1243864105
    Reminds me of primary school when the government provided schools with crates of milk that usually sat in the sun for a few hours.Then, once they had well and truly turned sour, pupils were lined up to drink it under the watchful eye of the teachers.

    Ah, the good old days...not!
    I was in charge of the milk in my day and ours never sat in the sun.
    I liked my milk and was always willing to drink an extra one for those who didnt want theirs.
    Some of us kids on occasions would smuggle in milo or quik to have with our school milk. Do you remember the containers the milk came in? I remember at one stage they had those triangle shaped cartons, like the old sunnyboys ice blocks.



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