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Thread: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

  1. #1
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    Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I was wondering if anyone could clarify the difference between texturing milk for cappucinos and milk for lattes.

    Cappucinos have the 1/3 ratio - espresso, milk, foam... and
    Lattes have no foam? or less foam?

    WBC rules say that Caps have ~1cm of foam.

    Also the WLC rules say that Caps are served in 220-250ml cups, while WBC says smaller. I know that theres the taste issue, bla bla, but whats the standard size of a cappucino?

  2. #2
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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Where are you standing and which way is the wind blowing?
    Unfortunately marketing has got in the way of some of this,
    and also there is often more than one accepted way to define specific drinks depending on where you are, or come from.

    However I would like to say that "bucket" sized drinks are not what I think of as proper drinks.

    Attempting to answer your first question,
    generally a Latte has less foam than a Cap, (and a flat white has almost none). *Latte is commonly described as ~1cm of foam and Cap as 1/3 as you noted, for serving to the public, so you might texture the milk a bit longer for a Cap or you can pour Cap first and Latte second, or you can pour some into another jug first then pour.... etc.
    If WBC rules state something different it might just be due to the need to define something more easily measurable so they can more fairly evaluate the contestants offerings.
    Rules that state a drink must be served in a "X" sized cup again my be framed for ease/fairness of judging, doesnt necessarily mean the cup has to be full.
    My understanding is that many of us here like milk drinks around the 170-220ml range.

    Interestingly, if a Cap is equal parts espresso/milk/foam, then ~30ml espresso+ ~30ml milk + ~ 30ml foam is only 90 ml, whereas if you mark equal 1/3 increments up the side of the cup the relative volumes could easily make up 170 or more...which is right?
    which do you prefer the taste of?

    Bullitt




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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Hi Tashie,

    It was only until this years WBC that they stated a minimum of 1cm foam. But remember the foam depth is relative to the diameter of the cup. Most competitors use really small diameter cups such as the classic tulip design by ACF (aka FAC) and are usually 170 mL in volume. This rule only really came about because of ambiguity in judging appropriate foam depths for competitors. I remember in barista training for competitions, we would always aim for the middle of the top part of the handle on ACF tulip cups which is about 1.5 cm of foam. Since the rule has been introduced, it is easily quantifiable how much 1 cm as opposed to "consistency and persistence of foam". I still have an issue with the "1cm rule", but its a step in the right direction (competition wise). These cappuccinos are what we call traditional cappuccinos.

    With WLC, Im sure there are new rules where the competitors are actually given the cups to pour in to. From what Ive heard from Erin Sampson, it will be ACF Tulip cups (whether theyre 170mL or the larger volume ones, I dont know!).

    Generally, you will find most cafes serving cappuccinos in the same cups as flat whites. These are your standard made in china coffee roastery branded 220 mL ceramic cups. They will come out domed and with chocolate sprinkled on top. Next time you order a capp, drag your spoon through and check. It will be around 1 to 2cm but no more.

    The ratio of 1/3 in cappuccinos will never hold unless you have a 90 mL cup, assuming the maximum espresso volume you can have is 30 mL. Therefore, WBC rules will be more like 30 mL espresso, 40 mL foam (38.5 mL with 1cm of foam to be exact) and 100 mL milk, no where near the "1/3" rule. The only way this rule will be able to hold using standard competition ware is using double espresso and adding 1.5 (to 1.6) cm of foam.

    Caffe lattes on the other hand will always be served in a 220 mL glass in Melbourne. 1 shot of espresso (30 mL), 1 cm of foam on top. Is there a marked difference between the cafe cappuccino and the caffe latte? Not really, though there ought to be a bigger difference. The cappuccino should be always stronger tasting than the caffe latte due to the amount of hot milk being allowed to dilute the espresso base. The biggest difference between the two drinks is when you compare the traditional cappuccino vs the caffe latte.

    In a nutshell, to answer your question short and sharp, a traditional capp = 170 mL. Cafe capps = 220 mL. Capps should always have more foam than caffe lattes and so texture the milk accordingly (add more air during the stretching phase) and hence taste stronger than caffe lattes.

    Hope this helps,

    Dave
    zeezaw likes this.

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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Thanks guys, thats really interesting especially the part about the traditional 1/3 rule and how thats not really used in practice. *Interesting that there isnt really a difference between lattes are capps -or not much of one as it would seem. I guess in practice maybe its the bit of extra texturing plus the chocolate dusting... *

    So I guess when I order a double shot capp thats closer to the traditional cappucino in form, at least.

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    Re: Cappucino vs Latte Milk

    Very interesting reading dave, thanks for that, for your average cafe here in brissie, the difference between a cafe latte and a cap is choc dust!, im so snobby ;)

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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Quote Originally Posted by 0C082E3737322D3A355B0 link=1245160555/4#4 date=1245668799
    Very interesting reading dave, thanks for that, for your average cafe here in brissie, the difference between a cafe latte and a cap is choc dust!, im so snobby ;)
    Here Here... * I have even had a Flat White with more foam than a Cap.. *And get asked if I want Choc on top..

    Also getting very pissed at thos promoting Highly Qualified staff etc and they use spoons / spatulas and even top up Jugs from one or more others and then re steam....

    I am so disolutioned * :D *(Speeling police) that I wonder why I try for a coffee; out side of Home or a Sponsors establishment....

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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Long macs are another pet peeve.... Always seem to get them at a 1:1 ratio ARghhh!

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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Been thru that question before especially with relationship to WBC rules.

    My personal assumption for visitors (not me), after much fruitless agonising was that most average aussies expect capps to generally have 1 third microfoam (irrespective of the other ratios!) and lattes to have 1 fifth microfoam, and flat whites 2mm at most.

    My roasting experience has taught me that coffees can be majorly different in relation to their strength of flavour per 30ml - some are mild, some are overwhelmingly strong. I now choose my cup size at home on the basis of the coffee Im having. I prefer the microfoam texture of lattes over capps, but my lattes at home can be as strong in flavour as typically available capps from an average store. Average aussies expect a capp to be stronger than a latte... that assumption doesnt apply at my house. ;)

    So, if Im serving for visitors at home, I keep the microfoam ratios at what they expect, find out whether they like stronger or milder coffees, and adjust the shot ;) or bean selection to suit.

  9. #9
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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Mostly the problem is poorly trained (or not at all trained) Baristas...

    Traditionally:
    Cappuccino: 1/3 espresso, 1/3 steamed milk, 1/3 foam, dusted with
    Latte (served in a tall glass): 1-part (shot) espresso, 2-parts milk, 1-part foam. (basically a milkier or creamier cappuccino).

    However Tashie is correct, the reality is greatly different with most baristas (especially in places like Gloria Jeans & Starbucks) having no idea of the difference between steamed milk and foam and basically fill your cup with either without paying attention to what theyre pouring or the final product.

    The best barista Ive ever come across was at a little coffee bar in Brisbane airport. Massive queue for coffee. She was calling 6, 7 or 8 places down the queue for your order so she could have it ready by the time you got to the cash register. 1 person on cash register, 1 on the espresso machine. It was awesome to watch.

    I dont konw what that young lady is up to these days, but I reckon she should have a crack at Prime Minister or something!

    Thats the problem, most people with the intelligence to be a decent barista probably become laywers or doctors, (*...or business owners *;) )

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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Doesnt really take much intelligence to be a decent barista, just some smarts and a lot of common sense! You are right however, there are not many people who stay as baristas for an entire career because more money can be had elsewhere.

  11. #11
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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    mod edit- all posts modified out of respect for the correct spelling of the name of the drink...;)

    2mcm

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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    You mean we cant call it Cup-of-chino or expresso? Does that annoy the hell out of anyone else?

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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Quote Originally Posted by 536566647365657945757E79797A160 link=1245160555/2#2 date=1245215812
    Hi Tashie,

    It was only until this years WBC that they stated a minimum of 1cm foam. But remember the foam depth is relative to the diameter of the cup. Most competitors use really small diameter cups such as the classic tulip design by ACF (aka FAC) and are usually 170 mL in volume. This rule only really came about because of ambiguity in judging appropriate foam depths for competitors. I remember in barista training for competitions, we would always aim for the middle of the top part of the handle on ACF tulip cups which is about 1.5 cm of foam. Since the rule has been introduced, it is easily quantifiable how much 1 cm as opposed to "consistency and persistence of foam". I still have an issue with the "1cm rule", but its a step in the right direction (competition wise). These cappuccinos are what we call traditional cappuccinos.

    With WLC, Im sure there are new rules where the competitors are actually given the cups to pour in to. From what Ive heard from Erin Sampson, it will be ACF Tulip cups (whether theyre 170mL or the larger volume ones, I dont know!).

    Generally, you will find most cafes serving cappuccinos in the same cups as flat whites. These are your standard made in china coffee roastery branded 220 mL ceramic cups. They will come out domed and with chocolate sprinkled on top. Next time you order a capp, drag your spoon through and check. It will be around 1 to 2cm but no more.

    The ratio of 1/3 in cappuccinos will never hold unless you have a 90 mL cup, assuming the maximum espresso volume you can have is 30 mL. Therefore, WBC rules will be more like 30 mL espresso, 40 mL foam (38.5 mL with 1cm of foam to be exact) and 100 mL milk, no where near the "1/3" rule. The only way this rule will be able to hold using standard competition ware is using double espresso and adding 1.5 (to 1.6) cm of foam.

    Caffe lattes on the other hand will always be served in a 220 mL glass in Melbourne. 1 shot of espresso (30 mL), 1 cm of foam on top. Is there a marked difference between the cafe cappuccino and the caffe latte? Not really, though there ought to be a bigger difference. The cappuccino should be always stronger tasting than the caffe latte due to the amount of hot milk being allowed to dilute the espresso base. The biggest difference between the two drinks is when you compare the traditional cappuccino vs the caffe latte.

    In a nutshell, to answer your question short and sharp, a traditional capp = 170 mL. Cafe capps = 220 mL. Capps should always have more foam than caffe lattes and so texture the milk accordingly (add more air during the stretching phase) and hence taste stronger than caffe lattes.

    Hope this helps,

    Dave
    Can you explain why does more foam mean a stronger tase? Is it correct *that only Australia and NZ have flat whites? It seems that in other countries what we know as a flat white is called a latte and no drinks to be seen in a glass.

    My experience is that often in cafes the only difference is glass versus cup for lattes and flat white and chocolate sprinkled on top for cappuccino. I like my flat white to have decent amount of foam and prefer drinking from a cup rather than a glass. Maybe what i like should be classed as a latte in a cup or even a cppuccino. It would be interesting to compare each drink in a takeaway cup!

  14. #14
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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Hi Danny,
    Regarding your foam question: your shot of espresso is the same volume - 30ml. The size of your cup is the same volume - 200ml (for example). So that means milk and foam must share the remaining space. The more foam there is, the less room there is for milk. Less milk = stronger tasting coffee. :)

  15. #15
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    Re: Cappuccino vs Latte Milk

    Thanks that make sense...foam does not dilute the espresso whereas milk does



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